Player Features and Ideas Discussion

First thank you for running these tests. I have a hard time getting sisi to work.

You are right I did not include the tests where you use drones on a target that is not moving at all. I did not expect there to be much difference there. Surely the drone ai isn't so bad the drones will miss an object standing still. Nor did I use the tests where you use smaller drones that deal much less damage. The question is when both pilots are flying optimally what sort of damage can be done.

Did the stabber have an ab? If so did it overheat the ab? You might be able to replicated overheating by putting a few overdrives in. Since I fly in low sec I would be interested in seeing how these drones do when there is an ab cruiser or even if the medium (or heavy) drones can hit an ab frigate that is webbed.

Also one of the main arguments here is what effect that extra mid will have if an extra web is used by the domi. How do the ogres do against double webbed ab frigates and cruisers?

Anyway thanks for running the tests I did copy and paste the only test I thought had application to what you find on tq.

I actually had to completely shield tank the Stabber against thermal Gallente drones, less my Dominix rip it to pieces. Even with over 80% thermic resists and an oversized booster, my Dominix was reliably forcing it under 30% shields from time to time. I could indeed simulate an overheated webbed 10mn AB II Stabber with about three Overdrive Injector IIs on it, though (by my estimates it would only be 4m/s faster than an actually overheated+webbed Stabber).

However, you should note that you would be INCREDIBLY incorrect that Drones are "too smart to miss" an unmoving target. A completely stationary ship will always be better defended (against up-size drones) than one that has any amount of speed. As soon as the ships start getting some real speed is when the heavier drones will begin to outclass the "standard" sized drones in damage. This is why my test only included Stationary Targets, Scrammed Targets, and Webbed targets. For example, the "Scrammed" test involved shooting at a ship that is moving at full orbit speed. A webbed Afterburner frigate (not overheating) barely moves any faster than this (~30-40m/s) and thus the numbers will not show much of a difference. The "stationary" target is simulating, well, a stationary target, but can also apply to heavy webs. The difference of a ship moving 20m/s or not moving at all means nothing to the drones, and they will still miss.

You'll notice that against a frigate, the Medium Drones performed their best against an unwebbed, but scrammed frigate. This is because the frigate's speed is more in line with Hammerhead's orbit speed and the drones get the pleasure of being able to follow the target without having to MWD and ultimately overshoot the target, orbiting it too fast to track for some time. The Dominix's BONUS however, applies MORE against the webbed target. Because now the drones don't get the leisure to just trail behind the target happily shooting away, but are causing high transversals upon themselves by orbiting the target ship too quickly. This is true for both Medium drones vs. Frigates and Heavy Drones vs. Cruisers, and is ultimately the defining moment where the Dominix manages to truly "pull ahead" from the Armageddon. But when you consider the Dominix did 57.93% more damage with Hammerhead IIs vs a frigate SCRAMMED as opposed to WEBBED you begin to question whether the bonus is worth it or not, as webbing the target to make use of your bonus is decreasing your applied DPS, and only increasing your damage in relation to the Armageddon (where the Armageddon DPS is not too far behind if the target is unwebbed).

This is not true for the Stabber test, however, where when webbed the Ogre IIs began to obliterate it. Well, sort of. The Ogre IIs only manage a 3.48% increase in damage (from the Dominix) on a webbed target vs. the scrammed. That's not enough to be noticeable, really. Although the number in this case does indeed heavily outshine the Armageddon (the Dominix's scrammed test also brought it a bit ahead of the Geddon)

If you are familiar with Azual Skoll's similar (and older) tests on this same issue, this information shouldn't be too big of a surprise for you. If you're not, I would recommend giving it a look if you ever get the chance. As far as I am concerned, the only tests that are left are disrupted MWDing Frigs/Cruisers (+webbed results), and a Sentry test (all size ships). An overheated AB test is doable as well.

It just involves a boatload of alt tabbing and number crunching and I've been far more invested into DUST 514 since the last test I did. Long story short though is, the Armageddon is going to be a fantastic ship, don't discredit it. It's pretty much absorbing the Dominix's old role as a Neutboat (it does it just as well, actually better) making it a less attractive prospect for the Dominix. And with the loss of the hybrid damage bonus the all gank Domi's DPS is being slightly hampered.

In regards to the Domi's extra mid, you can't just automatically assume web there (especially when you look at the heavily webbed/stationary drone DPS testing). A drone navigation computer or extra Omnidirectional tracking link are more likely and useful midslots for it. MJD as well.

The point of my tests were MORE in the way to use actual numbers and stats (insetad of opinions) to determine whether the Dominix's new bonus was worth the removal the hybrid damage bonus for non-sentry drones, it was not meant to discredit the Armageddon in any way. Because the Armageddon is just as effective as the old Dominix, but with a slightly different slot layout. The drones will be mostly the same, though. And the Dominix is a beast, so there's no justification in trying to claim the Armageddon is not.

ExAstra

Interesting post. I learn something new every day. At your suggestion, I did look at this blog:

http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/02/drones-vs-frigates.html

Interesting and surprising stuff.

I am not sure it was a good idea to only include the damage after orbit but it makes sense from a consistency perspective. I would think the larger drones from the domi with a longer optimal and better tracking will get more good hits as they approach the target.

I always had a hunch my valkeries were better than hammerheads but I could never figure out what was happening. I am actually still not sure I understand whats happening. Why were the hammerheads scoring so bad in Azual Skoll's test relative to the valks?

It seems pretty clear drone ai needs some work.

I think the ab tests might be interesting. I will need to go back over your tests to see what happened with ships standing still.

Thanks for doing these tests.

You may want to reread his blog. He did three tests with all the explosive and thermal drones against a target standing still. Hammerheads did much worse than valks in all three tests.

What you quote above was only a single non repeated one minute test.

This is what he said "I only ran these tests for hobgoblins and hammerheads, and only for a single minute-long period each. Given the results, it may be worth repeating this further."

Give the considerable variations that could occur in a one minute test from the multiple tests where the target stood still I consider these later non-repeated tests between hobs and hammerheads of limitted value.

But with respect to the test which was repeated 3x where the target was standing still the valks seem to do about 2xs as much damage as the hammerheads. I am not sure why. They do track better.

But berserkers are supposed to track better than ogres too if I recall and the results don't seem to show it making it much difference for them. But then again the variations in results (especially for the berserkers) suggests that perhaps even repeating the same test 3xs might not give a large enough pool of data to draw solid conclusions.


I sort of assumed ccp did some testing on increasing the tracking of drones when they added drone tracking to the tristan. Since it is not really a sentry drone ship I guess I assumed they would not give it a meaningless bonus.

Ah yes I see what you were talking about. But you should note that his original test was also only performed for a minute each (although this adds to 3 minutes per, the results are "mostly" consistent)

The reason that the Valkyries were doing more damage than the Hammerheads is entirely because of tracking. His test there was only done against a stationary target. This means that the drones are orbiting the target at their natural speed, which horrendously lowers their DPS because they are doing nothing but giving themselves a higher transversal.

Valkyrie Tracking: 1.44
Hammerhead Tracking: .922

The Warriors did better damage than those two:

Warrior Tracking: 3.24

You'll notice that the Hobgoblins did more damage than the Hammerheads, Valkyrie, as well as the Warriors, note:

Hobgoblin Tracking : 2.18

Speeds and damages are:
Warrior: 900m/s w/16.1dps
Hobgoblin: 660m/s w/19.8dps
Valkyrie: 600m/s w/25.7dps
Hammerhead: 480m/s w/31.7dps

So the Valkyrie only moves "a little" faster than the Hammerheads, but the much higher tracking allows it to easily compensate for the marginal base DPS loss. The Hobgoblin comes ahead over the rest because its tracking+speed+dps value all work for it in this case. The Hammerhead tracking is too low and attack signature is too big, and the Warrior simply orbits too quickly (however they are phenomenal for catching interceptors).

In all honesty, though.. Drones are broken. CCP needs to re-evaluate them soon. For example, the Amarr Drones do less DPS than the Minmatar drones, and move slower, and have worse tracking. That just doesn't make sense.

Indeed. While still moderately dissatisfied with the Dominix's new bonus, and still rather peeved that the Amarr are "stealin' ar drones!", the Dominix does get a slight advantage with its drones in certain scenarios almost entirely due to the extra tracking. I just want CCP to fix the drones already. Game of Drones, pfffff. They got me all excited when they called themselves that, and all I get are more Amarr drone ships. Bah!

:(

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2889766#post2889766


This was my suggestion which would serve to make drones more useful for the dominix bonus as well as helping to create some differentiation. It follows the same line of thinking about utilising drone optimal to achieve this.

Nah, no apologies needed I am not 9pm guy and you are probably not Poe, plus that's why I asked I obviously did something wrong if you get yours fit stable and I did not.

btw. why nano plating and not energized membrane, you have some spare CPU left for it?

1. exactly, that was the point
2. then for sure testing against stationary targets cearain linked is relevant, right?
3. do you even read other posts other than yours? look at what cearain proposed or at nikunos post? guess what would such ogre with increased optimal and tracking do to a frigate or cruiser from 8k away - I remember very well what my ac cane was able to do to a frig 8k away from me. With 3 times lower tracking...
4. indeed it was, and even if it had no other benefits, just getting gardes to 45k+ with ac tracking or curators to 75k+ with pulse tracking is enough to make it powerful bonus - certainly far from lackluster or moderately dissatisfying. Do you even guys realize that domi with curators and 2x dda will have more damage and more range than apoc spending all of its pg and half of its cpu for megapulses and 2hs?


It is really terrible this shitfit that wont be able to complete anything but few easiest l4 missions without rewarping is still flying around... do people actually believe you can do missions like blockade with 190 tank, 50k range and cap for 9 minutes?

Oh, its been covered already? How comes someone dares to ever mention it again...

Btw I guess we have different view on what reliable means, because ogre shooting frigate from 8k with 125 sig resolution and 0.5 ang/s is different from ogre shooting frigate from 1k orbit. But again, who am I to mention it again when its been already covered and how dare I comment it when its saved for gods know when.

Yeah, there is also reason why apoc fleets arent really used. I guess it has something to do with them having less ehp than abaddon when fitting 1400mm howitzers.
This of course has small effect on small/med gang warfare both ships mentioned are designed for and where sentry drones are perfectly viable.