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The new launcher and the web server issues on the 21st of May: FAQ and update thread

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Nervon
HaveItYourWay Corp
#141 - 2013-05-23 22:11:25 UTC
The one thing that concerned me on the other thread was the lack of attention/posts by CCP.

On this thread, I see numerous post by CCP, I just want to say thank you for the attention.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#142 - 2013-05-23 22:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Haur
CCP Atropos wrote:
Mithril Ryder wrote:
I see PL is being mature as usual.

In all seriousness, this was a huge, huge (censored) of a deployment.

Any sort of new login method needs to support the following, natively, with nothing more complicated then your average eve player could be expected to figure out.

Multiple clients rapidly launched from a single install.

Multiple clients from more then one install location, while maintaining separate settings for each install path, even if an account logs in from more then one install path at different times.

Multiple clients using junction links (simlinks for you *nix dudes :) ), also maintaining separate settings for each install path, even if an account logs in from more then one install path at different times.

Any sort of cloud based settings storage *must* respect the fact that if I am logging into another machine (such as a laptop) it is possible that I want the same settings, but absolutely not the expectation. To that end, I propose the following:

The first time you log in for a given machine and install path combo, save that config info to the cloud as a non blocking background task by default.

When logging in on a new machine, where the install path is the same, don't import/use the cloud settings for that install path. If there is any local config use that, otherwise use eve defaults.

On the login screen have a checkbox "use default settings for this install from the cloud", when checked prompt the user "are you sure? existing settings will be replaced by the default cloud settings for this install path!"

On the in-game settings page, have an indication if the current client is in sync with the cloud, and if it is currently set as the default. Have a button to save the settings from that client as the default for that install path, have a confirmation prompt of course.

Once that is working, allow the cloud settings to also save more then the default. (use a randomly generated GUID stored locally in the launcher directory to track when you log in from a new computer). Allow the user to name each "computer" or "set", but assign defaults for speed.

On the login screen, have a "settings management" that opens up a list of your computers, where the settings for each install path can be set as default, or cloned between computers. If possible, separate things that are more hardware dependent (screen resolution, graphics settings) and universal (chat channels open, over view settings).

Could you tell me your reasons for having more than one installation (either physical or via junctions/symlinks) if you are able to start a client with a given set of settings.

Personally, I run multiple installs via junctions to maintain different sets of settings for each install. In my case, the base install is max graphics while the junction is minimal.

This gives me the ability to quickly choose between the two sets of settings for each client I launch, considering that my priorities depends on the number of accounts I am going to be logging in and what I am going to be doing with them (spinning in station or getting into an Asakai-level fight).
Jysella Halcyon
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#143 - 2013-05-23 22:15:31 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:

There are ways to allow a second session to be initiated but those aren't available yet, as I also detailed, due to the concerns I already laid out.

Then we're not really dealing with an SSO system, just multiple systems with the same UI. If that's the plan, why migrate loading to the launcher rather than implementing the "SSO" UI on the Odyssey login screen? The old launcher had one task, and it did it well and invisibly - get players into the game. The goal in a login system should be to get players immersed in the game environment as quickly as possible and the login screen does that while the players are entering their credentials. Pulling the login out of the client and into the patcher takes a previously invisible delay to that process and throws it in the players' faces. What's worse, the time it takes to get the players to the first immersive moment has ballooned substantially, as we now log in, get a black screen with a loading bar, select our character, and only then hit immersion in the game world.

The old launcher was invisible. If you didn't want to see it it would only ever show up when there was a patch. THIS WAS GOOD DESIGN.
The new launcher vomits non-game all over the screen when all I want to do is log in and play your spaceship game.
Doublewhopper
Temporary Assignment
#144 - 2013-05-23 22:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Doublewhopper
CCP Atropos wrote:

Could you tell me your reasons for having more than one installation (either physical or via junctions/symlinks) if you are able to start a client with a given set of settings.



Serious?

You do not know that half of the time the update process ruins your client?

Last time i checked it was over 10GB in size. You do not want to ruin all your clients at once and reinstall or redownload.

But there is more like the launcher locking files and stuff...mixing things up..cache corruption and whatnot
bongpacks
Rules of Acquisition
#145 - 2013-05-23 22:17:20 UTC
Steps to break the new launcher.

Step 1: double click the little arrow for the user-name drop-down box and watch it turn purple.
Step 2: hit backspace
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Cry yourself to sleep

CCP please stop releasing half-baked, half-functioning content to the LIVE SERVER. You created a whole other server for the express purpose of testing new features and ideas. So instead of ignoring the player feedback from singularity and then throwing steaming piles of unpolished crap on the live server how about...not doing that? What's wrong with the way we logged in before there was a launcher? So far as I can tell this launcher is just another way for CCP to advertise all their crap that I personally don't want to buy, if I wanted to see an eve website I'd go to the eve website. Maybe your team doing all those interesting metrics about how many players are using what features can tell you how many players are currently launching from ExeFile.exe (awesome name btw) instead of using the new fail-launcher, I'd be interested in seeing that. Another gripe is that now every time I crash I'm not "instantly" greeted with the login screen or the launcher but I have to open it myself. CCP you took a HUGE leap forward after the last round of layoffs but you've been taking baby steps backwards ever since then. Try releasing content people want, I don't particularly care how pretty the game is or how fancy the menus are, I want functionality and consistency. Having cloaking device recalibration affect HICs but not dictors is not consistent and neither is having sphere launcher activation timers reset after a jump but not the HICs bubble timer. It's the little things in the game mechanics that most people care about, not how pretty something that's mostly still broken looks.
Hagbard Solaris
Omega Eternal
#146 - 2013-05-23 22:18:12 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Hagbard Solaris wrote:
This is incorrect. Eve Launcher and Eve websites are part of the same universe. This is more like Logging into Google Chrome and expecting it to also sign me in to my GMAIL account. Since Google Chrome and GMAIL are both part of google, this works. The same should work for Eve Launcher and Eve Forums.

If you log into Google in Chrome and then start up a second, different browser (as I said originally, Firefox for example) you won't be signed in in that second browser because the session is stored only in the one browser.

There are ways to allow a second session to be initiated but those aren't available yet, as I also detailed, due to the concerns I already laid out.


So, although This News Release concerning SSO states, "After logging in once you will not need to re-enter your credentials when you visit another EVE Online website that also uses SSO"
And CCP Phantom said in This Post "The main change is a new and improved landing page and a new login mechanism which will allow you to log into EVE Online using our SSO (single sign on) service."

This does not mean that signing into the new SSO capable launcher will allow you to visit another website that uses SSO without re-entering your credentials. Do I have it right now?

What if New Eden was a virtual prison and we're convicts in a prison pod somehwere?

CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#147 - 2013-05-23 22:21:22 UTC
Lord Haur wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
Could you tell me your reasons for having more than one installation (either physical or via junctions/symlinks) if you are able to start a client with a given set of settings.

Personally, I run multiple installs via junctions to maintain different sets of settings for each install. In my case, the base install is max graphics while the junction is minimal.

This gives me the ability to quickly choose between the two sets of settings for each client I launch, considering that my priorities depends on the number of accounts I am going to be logging in and what I am going to be doing with them (spinning in station or getting into an Asakai-level fight).

Exactly. If the ability to store, manage, maintain, migrate, modify, whatever with your settings is handled in the EVE Launcher, then there only need exist one underlying installation. I know work was done to enable texture sharing between instances, and having them running the same executable (not just a copy of the same executable) would encourage this, leading to overall better performance for multiboxers, less space used on the hard disk (although I admit this is negligible for those using junctions or symlinks) and the ability to move between computers easily and take your settings with you.
Muul Udonii
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#148 - 2013-05-23 22:21:39 UTC
I still don't see why you are devoting any development time to something that does not help any of your customers one little bit.

The launcher development has had the effect to move roughly 90% of your users to the 'workaround' option, and in all likelyhood they will never again use the launcher.

This makes every single bit of improvement you do to it, utterly pointless. We are all now playing the game as if it never had a launcher at all.

Logging in on the launcher does not log you in to any of the other web services, so if you are using multiple accounts it makes absolutely no difference whether you have to log in on the client (which is easy and preferred) or on the launcher (which takes longer).

Once you got to a stage where logging in on the launcher did more than logging you in on one copy of a client (after you press 'play'), then it might have been worth releasing this change; but as you released it far too early and very badly, to be honest there is very little point continuing.

Maybe you could devote the dev time to revamping POSes, which are used by far more than 5% of the playerbase?


CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#149 - 2013-05-23 22:25:53 UTC
Hagbard Solaris wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
Hagbard Solaris wrote:
This is incorrect. Eve Launcher and Eve websites are part of the same universe. This is more like Logging into Google Chrome and expecting it to also sign me in to my GMAIL account. Since Google Chrome and GMAIL are both part of google, this works. The same should work for Eve Launcher and Eve Forums.

If you log into Google in Chrome and then start up a second, different browser (as I said originally, Firefox for example) you won't be signed in in that second browser because the session is stored only in the one browser.

There are ways to allow a second session to be initiated but those aren't available yet, as I also detailed, due to the concerns I already laid out.


So, although This News Release concerning SSO states, "After logging in once you will not need to re-enter your credentials when you visit another EVE Online website that also uses SSO"
And CCP Phantom said in This Post "The main change is a new and improved landing page and a new login mechanism which will allow you to log into EVE Online using our SSO (single sign on) service."

This does not mean that signing into the new SSO capable launcher will allow you to visit another website that uses SSO without re-entering your credentials. Do I have it right now?

In this instance you're quite right, and I can only attribute it to both of those articles being drafted by different people. However whilst you are correct, I am also correct; the SSO works by creating a browser session, so that any time you navigate to an EVE Online website, within that browser context/session you will be logged in. Since the EVE Launcher is not the browser that you would be doing this navigation within, you still need to login.

I hope this clears up the misunderstanding.
Steijn
Quay Industries
#150 - 2013-05-23 22:28:01 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Could you tell me your reasons for having more than one installation (either physical or via junctions/symlinks) if you are able to start a client with a given set of settings.


Im sorry but i find that question simply staggering. It basically shows the customer base that maybe not all, but certainly some of CCP, have no idea just how this game is played.
Muul Udonii
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#151 - 2013-05-23 22:30:31 UTC
Muul Udonii wrote:

Logging in on the launcher does not log you in to any of the other web services,



And incidentally, I do not WANT to be logged in to your website with the client I have just launched into the game, I want to be logged in with the account I log in with, to all the different bits of your site.

No need to change, so don't.
Mithril Ryder
Genstar Inc
Villore Accords
#152 - 2013-05-23 22:31:43 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:

Could you tell me your reasons for having more than one installation (either physical or via junctions/symlinks) if you are able to start a client with a given set of settings.


That is currently the only way to have more then one setting, also depending on the situation, I may want to log in Alt 1 with good graphics on my main client, then later log in alt 2 from the same account but at low graphics and a smaller size, for just doing market orders as an example, while my main client install has 2 accounts logged in .

I understand that it may not be easy, or possible to have the cloud settings allow for that kind of flexability. However I should always have the option for any given login, either as a one time or remembered setting, to use locally stored settings. See how steam does cloud storage, you can always turn off the cloud sync (for example to try to fix your corrupted savegames by deleting the most recent), and when you turn it back on you have the option to accept local and replace cloud, or the other way around.

As another example, on my (crappy) laptop I have 2 install directories with all my accounts in both, when it is docked I use 1 account since I have a larger screen available, and that changes where I want my windows, hud for the ship, etc. When I am mobile I launch any account I need to log into from the other directory, which is also set to minimal settings since if I am not docked I am likely on battery power.

My settings are my settings, I know of no game or MMO that uses cloud based settings that are universal to your account regardless of what machine you log in from.
Hagbard Solaris
Omega Eternal
#153 - 2013-05-23 22:32:40 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Hagbard Solaris wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
Hagbard Solaris wrote:
This is incorrect. Eve Launcher and Eve websites are part of the same universe. This is more like Logging into Google Chrome and expecting it to also sign me in to my GMAIL account. Since Google Chrome and GMAIL are both part of google, this works. The same should work for Eve Launcher and Eve Forums.

If you log into Google in Chrome and then start up a second, different browser (as I said originally, Firefox for example) you won't be signed in in that second browser because the session is stored only in the one browser.

There are ways to allow a second session to be initiated but those aren't available yet, as I also detailed, due to the concerns I already laid out.


So, although This News Release concerning SSO states, "After logging in once you will not need to re-enter your credentials when you visit another EVE Online website that also uses SSO"
And CCP Phantom said in This Post "The main change is a new and improved landing page and a new login mechanism which will allow you to log into EVE Online using our SSO (single sign on) service."

This does not mean that signing into the new SSO capable launcher will allow you to visit another website that uses SSO without re-entering your credentials. Do I have it right now?

In this instance you're quite right, and I can only attribute it to both of those articles being drafted by different people. However whilst you are correct, I am also correct; the SSO works by creating a browser session, so that any time you navigate to an EVE Online website, within that browser context/session you will be logged in. Since the EVE Launcher is not the browser that you would be doing this navigation within, you still need to login.

I hope this clears up the misunderstanding.


It clears it up very well. Thank you for clarifying the contradictory statements made by your colleagues.

What if New Eden was a virtual prison and we're convicts in a prison pod somehwere?

Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#154 - 2013-05-23 22:34:00 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
.

Do you have metrics for how many log in with the launcher, compared to those who do it without?

Will CCP repair the launcher (at least to former usability) before or after you remove the ability to start the game (bin/ExeFile)?

Can we assume that SiSi testing will have as much effect in the future as it had here?

Is it irresponsible to post that "[our] voices have been heard loud and clear and [you] been busy taking notes so [you]'d like to ask [us] to help [you] move forward (...)" -- each summer in 3 years, due to releasing bugs in beta to the live servers?

Would you say that CCP should have released the new launcher, if they had known the effects?
Oraac Ensor
#155 - 2013-05-23 22:36:08 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
The old login method still exists for the moment, however with login moved into the EVE Launcher then the concept of the old login screen simply doesn't make sense.
It makes perfect sense for those of us without a launcher.

CCP Atropos wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
CCP Atropos

when are you removing the ability to use the bin folder eve.exe?

is it going to be on june the 4th or can we keep using this after the path on that day?

It won't be before Odyssey. I don't have an exact date for it, since it's tied into a much larger engineering project to improve client boot times, asset preloading and getting into the game in general.
You are intending to remove the ability to use the bin folder eve.exe?

So those of us who have no launcher will eventually have no option other than to quit EVE?
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2013-05-23 22:36:32 UTC
Atropos / Guard -- been busy working all day so haven't had a chance to reply, but thanks for the replies to my post on page one.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#157 - 2013-05-23 22:37:42 UTC
Steijn wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
Could you tell me your reasons for having more than one installation (either physical or via junctions/symlinks) if you are able to start a client with a given set of settings.


Im sorry but i find that question simply staggering. It basically shows the customer base that maybe not all, but certainly some of CCP, have no idea just how this game is played.



Actually, if I can pick which set of settings I want to load a client with, from the launcher, that gets rid the majority of the reason I keep multiple clients.

If the launcher could also keep multiple login sessions active, so I could just pick from them when I want to start up a client, that would fix it all.


(not counting Sisi, but that's a different thing anyway).

How about you answer the question, if there's something they're missing.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Kai Pirinha
#158 - 2013-05-23 22:41:50 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
You can, yes. The old login method still exists for the moment, however with login moved into the EVE Launcher then the concept of the old login screen simply doesn't make sense.

Oh no, no no no no no! Hell No! Don't you dare tell me you want to remove the method to start the bin/exefile.exe.

THE NEW LAUNCHER IS UTTER CRAP FOR EVERY USER WITH MORE THAN ONE ACCOUNT!

If you (CCP) don't want us to use multiple accounts at once, then go right ahead. This would actually be a reason to unsubscribe my alts.
I don't want to take 2 extra minutes for every char I want to login. Right now it's a click on the exefile twice or three times (depending on how many chars I want to login simultaneously), enter my password, click on the character icon and I'm in.

This is the way to be.
With the new launcher, I cannot launch multiple clients at once, because it is the ******* launcher and a launcher can only be started once. So it's a big screw you for us. It doesn't even tell you anymore that the launcher has already been launched and cannot be run multiple times (like the old one did, when there was a patch and it didn't close automatically). So instead of telling me "hey this is not possible, the launcher is already running" it just sits there quietly and laughs about me and flips me the finger again. Nice. Thank you, CCP. Very polite. Delete the error message that came with it.


Also, another thing that really bugs me: Each time there is the smallest patch, the new launcher forgets its settings (the launcher settings, not the eve settings).
So after each small patch I have to readjust my settings and add "close eve launcher after starting eve online" and more importantly remove the tick for "send error and usage logs to CCP". <--- Why do you reset this every time? I DONT WANT TO SEND YOU USAGE LOGS. ACCEPT IT!

Hello World

Mithril Ryder
Genstar Inc
Villore Accords
#159 - 2013-05-23 22:43:16 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Lord Haur wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
Could you tell me your reasons for having more than one installation (either physical or via junctions/symlinks) if you are able to start a client with a given set of settings.

Personally, I run multiple installs via junctions to maintain different sets of settings for each install. In my case, the base install is max graphics while the junction is minimal.

This gives me the ability to quickly choose between the two sets of settings for each client I launch, considering that my priorities depends on the number of accounts I am going to be logging in and what I am going to be doing with them (spinning in station or getting into an Asakai-level fight).

Exactly. If the ability to store, manage, maintain, migrate, modify, whatever with your settings is handled in the EVE Launcher, then there only need exist one underlying installation. I know work was done to enable texture sharing between instances, and having them running the same executable (not just a copy of the same executable) would encourage this, leading to overall better performance for multiboxers, less space used on the hard disk (although I admit this is negligible for those using junctions or symlinks) and the ability to move between computers easily and take your settings with you.


No, that's not what we are doing, and it would not be enough.

Personally I use simlinks (junctions) to create virtual installs. This allows me to chose, by nature of which launcher/client I run, what settings I use. In order for the "cloud" settings to have the same functionality, it would need to be able to store multiple possible configurations per each subscription/account. Ideally able to tie defaults to specific machines and/or take them as options passed to the launcher via a custom shortcut.

When moving to a new computer, I *don't* want to take the settings with me. Period. The only thing I would want is the ability to backup and restore the more annoying things to set up, what channels I'm in, and over view settings, and possibly default window positions and a few other things (like info windows open a new window by default). I can export most of this manually and import it to a new computer as is. If you simply added "cloud" as an import/export for this, and maybe give us like 20 "slots" per item per account, then I and most other people would be happy. Beyond that, allowing you to save all your settings to the cloud as a backup, and import if you want to on a new install would be simple, and I think fine with everyone.

Unfortunately the current suggestion, and the silly attempts to refute people's concerns smacks of the "it works for me" culture that many software developers and other smart people fall into. As someone who does QA for a living, I see it all the time and how it blindsides otherwise smart people from real problems.
MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#160 - 2013-05-23 22:43:56 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:

In this instance you're quite right, and I can only attribute it to both of those articles being drafted by different people. However whilst you are correct, I am also correct; the SSO works by creating a browser session, so that any time you navigate to an EVE Online website, within that browser context/session you will be logged in. Since the EVE Launcher is not the browser that you would be doing this navigation within, you still need to login.



I neither want, nor need, to navigate to any other CCP website. So why do I get stuck with the option?

But, again, your response has nothing to do with the current launcher issues.