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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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stoicfaux
#1321 - 2013-05-23 19:22:12 UTC
A potentially easy nerf/fix for the Fleet Typhoon is to cut its CPU. Which forces it to be an armor tank. An armor tank reduces the slots available for DDAs and BCUs.

Large armor repper : ~50 CPU.
XLSB: 170 to 230 CPU.

Armor hardener: 16-36 CPU
Shield hardener: 30 to 44 CPU

DDA: 30 CPU
Drone Link Augmenter: 55 CPU

Garde II x5 :
No DDA: 300 DPS
+ 1 DDA: 369 DPS
+ 2 DDA: 443 DPS
+ 3 DDA: 501 DPS

With only 7 low slots for BCUs and tank, you have to decide between 4 BCUs and a 3 slot tank, or 3 BCUs and a 4 slot tank. I would like 8 low slots, but having 4 BCUs + a 4 slot tank + unbonused drones might still be a bit much.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1322 - 2013-05-23 19:28:50 UTC
Gankalol Fleet Typhoon

<3 honey me loves you Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1323 - 2013-05-23 19:30:42 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:

Few pages ago you said you hate using drones. Also using that strategy with MJD is tricky depending how many frigs there are some may catch up to you and with MJD's cooldown time you won't be doing that a lot. Now imagine a scramming frig in your deadly situation.


You read that wrong, i don't "hate" using drones I just don't some times, sometimes I do. for instance when using a CNR (or 'Snake or more commonly nowadays a Navy Domi) as support in a dual boxing set up I use sentry drones assigned to my mach/nightmare/whatever. I don't use drones when I don['t have to because the UI can be a pain, but I never said i hated them. The current CNR with 3 BCUs, 2 DDAs and 3rd Wardens or Curators and an MJD is pretty nice.

Quote:

The range is ~50km where TP's still work fine.
yea I know, I was responding to where you said "the rats are always coming at you".

Quote:

I actually use it as it was meant to and really like it. When i have someone for salvaging/looting i really like my CNR too.

After Odyssey i will like my Golem even more but when i have friend salvaging/looting then TFI is going to be absolutely murdering the missions.[/quote[

Sand box, i use ships in creative ways, not the way they were "meant" if I can get away with it. This is why those little advantages mean so much. But even when used in "orthodox" fashion I like the CNR more than the Golem. I just can't personally be arsed to juggle tractors, salvagers, TPs, and targets.

[quote]
Btw, can you post some of your CNR fittings here?


pretty standard set ups. When I'm doing something where I know i'll be using an MJD I got with medium deadspace booster, boost amp+ hardeners, BCUs and DCU in the lows, rigors and flares in the rig slots always. For tougher sites or missions I've used ASBs, or Deadpsace XL boosters + cap injectors.

Lately (in the last month i've played with the 3 BCU/2DDA sentry MJD CNR and man, have I been missing out (i just never though of the CNR like that, but it's cool.

The only thing Im going to miss from my high sec cnr is the ATS or dronle link aug I usually use. It's going to be more of a problem in null because I won't have a cloak, but that just means rat in systems with stations or poses (or have enough safe spots to warp around for 5 minutes after npc aggro so I can log.

Noting I say is going to make you like the new CNR, i just don't think it's this terrible dog of a ship you seem to.

It works fine for me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1324 - 2013-05-23 19:31:38 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
A potentially easy nerf/fix for the Fleet Typhoon is to cut its CPU. Which forces it to be an armor tank. An armor tank reduces the slots available for DDAs and BCUs.

Large armor repper : ~50 CPU.
XLSB: 170 to 230 CPU.

Armor hardener: 16-36 CPU
Shield hardener: 30 to 44 CPU

DDA: 30 CPU
Drone Link Augmenter: 55 CPU

Garde II x5 :
No DDA: 300 DPS
+ 1 DDA: 369 DPS
+ 2 DDA: 443 DPS
+ 3 DDA: 501 DPS

With only 7 low slots for BCUs and tank, you have to decide between 4 BCUs and a 3 slot tank, or 3 BCUs and a 4 slot tank. I would like 8 low slots, but having 4 BCUs + a 4 slot tank + unbonused drones might still be a bit much.



I can dig it.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1325 - 2013-05-23 19:35:12 UTC
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:


And now we're just shotgunning insults blindly hoping to hit the mark. You missed.

The 125 drone bandwidth pretty much has to stay. With the way they pulled the carpet out from under many typhoon pilots with the new basic phoon they more or less promised to keep the main qualities of the old typhoon in the fleet typhoon. Namely, the large drone bay, armor tank, and the flexibility of fitting missiles, turrets, or other utility highs.

Now I wouldn't be too opposed to going 5/5 turret-launcher split, or moving the bonus down to 5% RoF, or some other things to balance out the damage are fair arguments. But keeping the 8 highs, 125 drone bandwidth, and at least 7 lows are off the table to keep the spirit of the old typhoon alive.


If you're insulted by my claim that you don't want your (increasingly apparent) 'new favorite toy' to get nerfed then that's your problem - not mine. Your reaction only makes it look like I 'hit the mark' as you said - otherwise you would've just let it go. Regardless...

The drones and slot layout should *absolutely* be on the table. Not that what we type here will decide anything - it's CPP's call and I can guess what will happen... nothing. The stats will go live as is (unfortunately).


Yeah, I'm an undercover fleet typhoon pilot. You caught me.

But the statement still stands: 125 drone bandwidth, 8 highs, at least 7 lows. They can tinker with the bonuses to get the DPS where they want it, but they really need to keep the core of the typhoon

Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:


Seeing as how the fleet pest is hands down the worst faction battleship by miles I don't think it should be the gold standard for comparisons. The fact that the double turret bonused fleet pest is worse than the single bonused fleet typhoon says more about how horrible the design of the fleet pest is.


How does the fleet tempest compare to the CNR? Somewhat favorably IMO. Just further illustrates the problem with the fleet typhoon.


The don't compare well at all because they do completely different things. But some people are saying the new CNR is good, and some are saying it's bad.

Everyone is saying the fleet pest is just bad.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1326 - 2013-05-23 19:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Lets not lose sight of the fact that the CNR is in /dire/ need of more CPU. DIRE.




Edit: A simple way to fix the phoon is put the mid back to the low - it's that spare mid that's allowing it to apply its DPS effectively.

Edit2: Still, please don't....soooo want a little fun in that thing first P
stoicfaux
#1327 - 2013-05-23 19:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
stoicfaux wrote:
A potentially easy nerf/fix for the Fleet Typhoon is to cut its CPU. Which forces it to be an armor tank. An armor tank reduces the slots available for DDAs and BCUs.


And here's an example that uses 713.81 CPU out of 825. My 1500 DPS Fleet Typhoon required a Co-processor and used 847.31 out of 907.5 CPU.

So drop CPU (with skills V) to around 725 or so?
edit: new CPU would need to be lower. Will contemplate it later.

This seems reasonable at a quick glance:
459 sustained tank versus EM/Therm
1168 raw DPS
868 with missiles
300 with Garde II.

[Typhoon Fleet Issue, odyssey armor]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Garde II x5


edit: Some people like their sentries drones to go fast. Others don't. I'm acquiescing to the unimaginative.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1328 - 2013-05-23 19:40:57 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:


Everyone is saying the fleet pest is just bad.


Bad as in "bad ass super awesomesauce".

Ok ok, yet, it's a bit much.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1329 - 2013-05-23 19:42:29 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
A potentially easy nerf/fix for the Fleet Typhoon is to cut its CPU. Which forces it to be an armor tank. An armor tank reduces the slots available for DDAs and BCUs.


And here's an example that uses 705.81 CPU out of 825. My 1500 DPS Fleet Typhoon required a Co-processor and used 847.31 out of 907.5 CPU.

So drop CPU (with skills V) to around 725 or so?

This seems reasonable at a quick glance:
459 sustained tank versus EM/Therm
1168 raw DPS
868 with missiles
300 with Garde II.

[Typhoon Fleet Issue, odyssey armor]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Garde II x5



I too like fast Sentry drones!

Smile
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1330 - 2013-05-23 19:43:12 UTC
I'd missed this post. I've been whinging in the main Minnie BS thread for a while saying that I'd quit is CCP messed the Fleet Phoon up as much as they messed up the Phoon.


I'm out. Accounts are canceled.

(I'm such a drama queen, but I really did love the old Typhoon and Fleet Typhoon. These changes have broken my heart.)
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1331 - 2013-05-23 19:49:35 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:


Everyone is saying the fleet pest is just bad.


Bad as in "bad ass super awesomesauce".

Ok ok, yet, it's a bit much.



Fit for a fleet pest that people are calling good?
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1332 - 2013-05-23 20:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Jenn aSide wrote:
pretty standard set ups. When I'm doing something where I know i'll be using an MJD I got with medium deadspace booster, boost amp+ hardeners, BCUs and DCU in the lows, rigors and flares in the rig slots always. For tougher sites or missions I've used ASBs, or Deadpsace XL boosters + cap injectors.

Lately (in the last month i've played with the 3 BCU/2DDA sentry MJD CNR and man, have I been missing out (i just never though of the CNR like that, but it's cool.

The only thing Im going to miss from my high sec cnr is the ATS or dronle link aug I usually use. It's going to be more of a problem in null because I won't have a cloak, but that just means rat in systems with stations or poses (or have enough safe spots to warp around for 5 minutes after npc aggro so I can log.

Noting I say is going to make you like the new CNR, i just don't think it's this terrible dog of a ship you seem to.

It works fine for me.

Just tried those on EFT and i guess i have to give TFI a spin on SiSi. Less sig, faster, more sentrys + drone bay. I imagine ~300dps on the sentrys are more than capable to take care of all the frigs and cruisers since sadly the TP has to go. But that is not a issue since i will be shooting only the battleships with missiles and with frigs and cruisers quickly out of the way, apply even more dps on them. Oh, and i can slap DLA's on it too Big smile

Looks promising, sadly this will likely have to wait until tomorrow.
Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#1333 - 2013-05-23 20:11:48 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:


The don't compare well at all because they do completely different things. But some people are saying the new CNR is good, and some are saying it's bad.

Everyone is saying the fleet pest is just bad.


The fleet typhoon does everything.

Also, the stars of the night sky are still present during the day. It is only due to the brightness of the sun that you aren't able to see them.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1334 - 2013-05-23 20:22:51 UTC
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:


The don't compare well at all because they do completely different things. But some people are saying the new CNR is good, and some are saying it's bad.

Everyone is saying the fleet pest is just bad.


The fleet typhoon does everything.

Also, the stars of the night sky are still present during the day. It is only due to the brightness of the sun that you aren't able to see them.


Then why don't we all just fly the fleet typhoon and stop all the arguing.

Because sun and stars and brightness and whatever.
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1335 - 2013-05-23 20:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunuva Gunn
Trolly McForumalt wrote:

The fleet typhoon does everything.


It always has done. I'm somewhat baffled as to why they had to change the low slot layout though. It means I'd have to rip out my current armour tank (if I was going to hang around long enough to have to fly the new version).

Ersahi Kir wrote:


Then why don't we all just fly the fleet typhoon and stop all the arguing.


A butter knife cuts. Why would we ever need a steak knife?
Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#1336 - 2013-05-23 20:29:02 UTC
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Trolly McForumalt wrote:

The fleet typhoon does everything.


It always has done. I'm somewhat baffled as to why they had to change the low slot layout though. It means I'd have to rip out my current armour tank (if I was going to hang around long enough to have to fly the new version).

Ersahi Kir wrote:


Then why don't we all just fly the fleet typhoon and stop all the arguing.


A butter knife cuts. Why would we ever need a steak knife?


The current bonuses are at 5% and it has 5 each of turret and launcher slots. That and cruise missiles used to suck.

Compare the (unneeded) buff they gave the fleet typhoon to the... whatever it is they gave the CNR.
Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#1337 - 2013-05-23 20:33:06 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:


The don't compare well at all because they do completely different things. But some people are saying the new CNR is good, and some are saying it's bad.

Everyone is saying the fleet pest is just bad.


The fleet typhoon does everything.

Also, the stars of the night sky are still present during the day. It is only due to the brightness of the sun that you aren't able to see them.


Then why don't we all just fly the fleet typhoon and stop all the arguing.

Because sun and stars and brightness and whatever.


That will probably happen (in terms of navy BSes).

Thank god for Minmatar FW plex farmers, eh?
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1338 - 2013-05-23 20:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunuva Gunn
Trolly McForumalt wrote:


Compare the (unneeded) buff they gave the fleet typhoon to the... whatever it is they gave the CNR.


I do agree that a lot of the 'tinkering' that has gone on here has been completely unnecessary and does more to make people bicker than it does to please the playerbase (re: the fact that some Amarr battleships are now a good deal faster than Minnie ones).
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1339 - 2013-05-23 20:52:11 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
CPU nerf suggestion


You are only looking at it from PvE angle.....and using faction mods to calculate a CPU limit. Armor PvP fits tend to be CPU intensive too.

To prevent fphoon from stepping shield tankers toes is easy.

8 4 8 5/5 keep new bonuses.

Will make the ship a strict armor tanker and will open up shield tanking role for Fpest.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1340 - 2013-05-23 20:57:48 UTC
Deerin wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
CPU nerf suggestion


You are only looking at it from PvE angle.....and using faction mods to calculate a CPU limit. Armor PvP fits tend to be CPU intensive too.

To prevent fphoon from stepping shield tankers toes is easy.

8 4 8 5/5 keep new bonuses.

Will make the ship a strict armor tanker and will open up shield tanking role for Fpest.


I'm ok with this. Shield tanking would be possible but not with stacked up painters, omnis and such.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.