Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So it needs the high slot for drone range but won't use sentries because of being in neut range?

I admit I have not been following the cruise missile changes very much but that fit does not sound very good at all.



No way is a 7th high slot as valuable as a 5th mid on a ship that only gets a bonus to neuts and drones. Not sure how the ability to mix 5 unbonused guns and 5 unbonused missiles is better than 6 unbonused turrets. Are you going to fit a bcu, a turret damage mod, as well as a drone damage mod in the lows?



Sure the tracking and optimal will help sentries but it will also be a huge help to heavys mediums and even lights. Heavies and mediums often track terrible even when you have a scram and web. And if you have a prop mod and a cap booster then thats the best you can get. Basically a domi with 2 webs is going to be able to do massive damage to any ship in web range. Gleddon not so much.

The increase in optimal should also help in this regard as they usually need to mwd to get in range. Being able to hit from further out also means less tracking issues.

Domi will be able to use sentries for far ranges Geddon won't.

In other words every single fight the domi will likely be applying quite a bit more damage.

Domi gets these big advantages versus being able to neut 37k instead of 25k. I'm just not seeing this as anything great. Can you give me the common examples where this range advantage will be important?

7 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones > 6 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones any way you want to view it.

I'd always take a combination of neut + web over dual webs tbh. The option to have a range well over 30km for the neut versus the 10km for the web is just icing on this particular cake. Domis in pvp have practically always carried neuts for this very reason. The extra high is just as valuable as the mid in this case.

Tracking bonus for non-sentry drones makes little difference in almost every possible situation. Check out the Gallente thread for the numbers. The only time it does make a difference is for heavies vs cruisers, in all other scenarios it's ineffective.

Non-sentry drone optimal is so short that any % increase is effectively nil in real terms.

I must say I love the changes overall. Great thing happening to geddon, even abaddon and apoc are ok. But as many already stated this can't be by any chance a job done. Geddon needs one more mid slot, apoc needs a mediocre boost to EHP (just please not structure!) energy weapons need a rework overall because they seem to be too much of a burden even fo amarr ships now when not even apoc can handle its tremendous cap drain! But it is great first step. I just don't want to wait long for the energy weapons to be on par.

If all the highs had turrets, they had the same number of mid and low slots and the drones all had equal bonuses that would be true. But its not.




Good luck getting those heavies to do any damage on smaller ships when the pilots can just time their ab and scram based on your neuts 24 second recycle time even without a nos. And if they have a cap booster and mwd they will just laugh at your heavy drones.

I think maybe 5% range and 5% bonus to the neut cycle time would be better. You would still get over about 31k range but you would also reduce your cycle time to 18 seconds instead of 24.

Also eccm and other mods are nice to have in a midslot if you are planning to have plenty of other tackle in a fleet.




Are you never going to fight cruiser sized or smaller? Never going to fight a hac or other t2/t3 crusier?

Did the calculations take into account the 50% increase in optimal? Because the farther out you can hit the less tracking issue you have. In what way do they think the ai is flying those ogres/berserkers? Seriously on paper it seems like scram and web = heavies doing full damage on just about everything. But in practice they are often horrible.

I admit I am not sure why the heavys hit so rarely but I do know: 1) that even all but a select few frigates with a web and scram goes slower than the 900m/s an orgre goes. But the ogres/berserkers almost never hit. The ogres/berserkers often can't really even hit cruisers that well when they are scramed and webbed. So I know its not just the raw speed. Therefore they must be missing due to the ai being horrible at getting the drones to fly where they can land hits. This must be either due to them flying too far away or in a way that causes tracking issues.

Both are going to be addressed in the domi not in the geddon.

Our different views on this might be due to me being in low sec were battleships often have to fight smaller ships. Maybe in null sec that extra 12km on a neut will be worth the lose of a mid and the loss of trackign and optimal bonuses to your main weapon.

Also, don't forget that, while Nuets don't kill rat cap, the AI is programmed to respond as if it had lost cap by stopping the programmed effects to simulate cap using mods such as reps and ab/mwd.

The trouble with PvE is the Sansha neut like gurristas ECM or Serprentis Dampen. That's their Ewar. If the Geddon doesn't have a capacitor buffer, it's not a PvE ship, plain and simple.

In that respect the Minmatar rats are the best ones to kill. They target paint you in to the extreme but they are PvE and were going to apply damage with I-Win optimal anyway. Target paint away, it wasn't going to matter.

I'd submite a bug report about it, then, because according to what they said when they gave mission rats an AI, it's the same one as Sleepers/Incursion rats use, just dumbed down, and that AI does do that simulated thing. Yes, all rats do have a small cap pool, but that's only there so that nos can effect it.

I am anticipating fighting smaller ships however that was not the point I made. The information provided came not from calculations but from real figures on SiSi. There was a single case where the tracking bonus was demonstrably useful which is what I informed you of. Theorycrafting supposed benefits will not change the fact that they do not exist. As for the issue with drones hitting, if you have a small ship and are facing heavy drones you used to be able to mitigate the damage by sitting still. The drones own orbital velocity was sufficient to prevent them hitting you. The worst thing you could do was to travel at or slightly above the drones speed allowing them to follow behind and reduce transversal to nil. I haven't tried this in some time, but I doubt cpp have changed the mechanic.



Our views may be different due to a difference in null/low sec strategies, though I have flown and fought in low sec many times and lived in antem for over a year. My dominixes almost always had, and will continue to have, at least one neut. But my geddons will be flown considerably more often until the domi bonus becomes viable away from sentries which is not currently the case.

I have posted several suggestions including increasing the native optimal of each drone type to allow this bonus to become functionally sound, so your suggestions are in the right direction just currently non-viable.

I'll just leave this here for those arguing about the Domi/Geddon stuff (trust me, the Gallente thread has pretty much beat this topic into the ground). Since you kind of left out pretty much every other test I did and all the information that entailed. Speaking of which, I still have a bit more to do.

Keep in mind that the Dominix and Armageddon are pretty much equal when fighting battleships, as it's not possible for the Dominix to drone size-up against Battleships, and the effective output of both ships using standard drone size for the designated target (lights-frigs, meds-cruisers, heavies-bs) comes out rather even, with no "clear lead" in the Dominix's favor.

Also, the Heavy Drones vs. Webbed cruiser was arguably the single most successful attempt at showing any sort of usefulness for the Domi's new bonus outside of Sentry drones. In most other scenarios the differences were small or applied to situations unlikely in standard PvP.

Regardless, if you want to talk about Domi vs Geddon, I recommend reading some of the Gallente BS thread.