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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2011-11-04 11:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Goliath
Greetings

Please post your feedback about capital ship balancing in this thread.

Thanks.
Your Tallest.

Update (10/11/11): Based on feedback, the following changes will be made in addition to the previously proposed changes. They should hit SISI on Monday November 14th or Tuesday the 15th.

Supercarriers
* All supercarriers: dronebay +25000 (5 extra fighters/fb)

Shield supercapitals
* Shield nerf changed from -20% to -10% (shield recharge rate also changed accordingly)
** New values should be 90% of current TQ value

Naglfar
* +2500 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)

Nidhoggur:
* 7,5% bonus to armor and shield transfer amount per carrier level instead of 5%.
* +30000 PG
* +2500 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)

Hel:
* 7,5% bonus to armor and shield transfer amount per carrier level instead of 5%.
* +5000 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)

XL autocannons:
* +50% falloff

Titan tracking issue:
* "Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare" will also make you immune to remote "electronic assistance", that is: remote tracking enhancers and remote sensor boosters.

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]
Herpus McDerpus
#2 - 2011-11-04 11:14:00 UTC
Moros just became OP, with it's new bonus plus that Siege Module II it will spit out nearly 14k dps with a simple T2 fit.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#3 - 2011-11-04 12:07:55 UTC
Herpus McDerpus wrote:
Moros just became OP, with it's new bonus plus that Siege Module II it will spit out nearly 14k dps with a simple T2 fit.


i may not fly them, but i dont see a problem O_O being blasters and all :-P
To mare
Advanced Technology
#4 - 2011-11-04 13:13:39 UTC
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
Herpus McDerpus wrote:
Moros just became OP, with it's new bonus plus that Siege Module II it will spit out nearly 14k dps with a simple T2 fit.


i may not fly them, but i dont see a problem O_O being blasters and all :-P

capital blaster are not THAT of a short range weapon
capital blaster have a better range than capital projectile
VeloxMors
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-11-04 14:20:56 UTC
Can't get on sisi since nobody ever re-enables accounts, but my impressions based on what I've read:

  • Carriers are getting screwed. DDs not targeting subcaps and dreads getting buffed leave carriers with the short straw. T2 triage is nice, but triage continues to be a death sentence to a carrier in most situations and most carrier pilots will continue to not bother with the triage module at all.

  • Moros getting buffed AND getting better hybrids? Seriously? The Naglfar seriously needs some love with its high slots, and the Phoenix just needs some serious professional help all around. The Moros was a solid dread before this, and could have definitely waited on getting the buff (especially with hybrids being tweaked).

  • SCs are messed up. I agree the nerf on the Aeon and Nyx was a step in the right direction, but the Hel and Wyvern are just pathetic now.

    • Arkady Sadik
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    #6 - 2011-11-04 14:21:12 UTC
    The Moros is completely out of line with the other dreads and needs a look. The last dread rebalance made them all quite similar in damage and range, which is good and bad (it's nice to have variety), but this new change simply makes the Moros "strictly better" than the other dreads in all roles. Not good.

    I'd also ask you to have a closer look at carriers - they are completely out of balance:
    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=15674&
    xxxak
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #7 - 2011-11-04 15:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxak
    Supercarriers are too nerfed. Especially the shield carriers :(

    They are going to diaf against tiny gangs now...

    [u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
    gfldex
    #8 - 2011-11-04 15:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: gfldex
    I setup a CO and shot it a little with a Moros.

    15:04:43 Combat Your group of Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I misses Customs Office (6-CZ49 VI) [Kabelkopp] completely.

    You may want to increase the sig radius of those things.

    Update: It's reinforced now. Is it meant to get structure damage before leaving reinforced?

    If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
    Vmir Gallahasen
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #9 - 2011-11-04 15:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen
    Err, how are you getting 14K DPS? I think you forgot to take RoF and guns into account because14k is pretty close to the damage volley per blaster (not dps).

    Moros:
    139.94 damage mod, 4.6695s RoF (all L5, 2 damage mods, t2 Siege Module). 105.6 total damage from Guristas Antimatter XL.

    Volley: 139.94 * 105.6 = 14,777 @ max skills per blaster * 3 = 44,333 volley damage every 4.6695s = 9494 dps.
    19km optimal 19km falloff

    As a comparison:
    a revelation with 2 damage mods deals 7892 DPS @ 23+13
    Nag deals 9103 @ 16 + 24 [cit torps: <59km]
    Phoenix deals 8036 @ < 59km

    Gallente "we're the best at close range" Moros does 4% more DPS than a capless-weapon-using damage-type-selecting Minmatar "we pew it at range" Nag at close range? WHOA COMPLETELY OUT OF LINE
    Arele
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #10 - 2011-11-04 15:26:39 UTC
    gfldex wrote:
    I setup a CO and shot it a little with a Moros.

    15:04:43 Combat Your group of Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I misses Customs Office (6-CZ49 VI) [Kabelkopp] completely.

    You may want to increase the sig radius of those things.

    Maybe they don't want dreads used to kill customs offices?
    Pesadel0
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #11 - 2011-11-04 15:40:03 UTC
    Any news on the Minie loving? And in the shield supers?
    Ampoliros
    Aperture Harmonics
    #12 - 2011-11-04 16:36:17 UTC
    Minor feedback, but the moros description should probably have its description updated to cut out the 'protean array of point-defense capabilities' line
    Aragote
    Fat Dragon Mining Co.
    Darwinism.
    #13 - 2011-11-04 16:44:46 UTC
    The SC drone bay is completely inadequate for them to actually be useful, if they could launch one set of each fighters (with nyx and hel having some additional space for spare drones ) it would actually make them more then glorified dreads.
    Arkady Sadik
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    #14 - 2011-11-04 16:48:11 UTC
    Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
    Err, how are you getting 14K DPS?


    Base values:

    Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I RoF: 10.632, DMod: 8.71
    AM XL base damage: 96

    Skills (at 5):

    CHT +25% damage
    Gunnery: -10% RoF
    RF: -20% RoF
    Surgical Strike: +15% damage

    Moros bonus: 5% damage, 5% RoF per level

    Siege Module II: +840% damage

    1st MFS II: +10% damage, -10.5% RoF
    2nd MFS II: +8.7% damage, -9.13% RoF
    3rd MFS II: +5.7% damage, -6% RoF

    (8.71 * 96 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.25 * 9.4 * 1.1 * 1.087 * 1.057) / (10.632 * 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.75 * 0.913 * 0.943) = 3611 dps per gun
    Times 3 for the three guns, 10,833 dps.

    So yeah, more like 11k than 14k. Still, almost 50% more dps than the other dreads at very similar ranges is a tad out of line.

    Quote:
    a revelation with 2 damage mods deals 7892 DPS @ 23+13
    I get 7,388 dps with three damage mods (and named pulses). How did you get that value?
    Emmerik
    NED-Clan
    Goonswarm Federation
    #15 - 2011-11-04 17:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Emmerik
    Shield Super Capitals need some work... Please take a look at that dear Devs
    There is a thread about them in the Ship & modules forums;
    Please don't forget about it, because its really needed:

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20499&find=unread
    (shield recharge after bonus - shield / armor implants)
    Kazanir
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #16 - 2011-11-04 17:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazanir
    Echoing this. Minmatar and shield capitals need a number of key changes:

    - Shield tanks need an equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules added to the deadspace loot of their respective factions; in this case we would be talking about Pithum / Gistum modules dropping from 6/10s and Guristas/Angel Base escalations. Without this, shield tanks simply cannot be on par with armor tanks in terms of EHP, which is of ultimate importance to supercaps.

    - Shield mechanics need to be changed so that gang bonuses are instantly applied. They don't right now because shield HP is measured as a positive value, while armor HP is measured as a negative "damage" value. This absolutely must be fixed or shield supercapitals will never be competitive -- it is a 30% EHP penalty in practice.

    - The Hel needs a bonus that makes it competitive with 25% tank resistance (Wyvern/Aeon) or 25% damage (Nyx). Right now 25% repping power does not cut it. To be competitive with the other 3 supercarriers the Hel needs something like a 200% repping power bonus, or the ability to fit a Triage Module, or a completely reworked bonus that does something different.

    This is all covered in massive detail in the thread linked above, but worth repeating in short form here.
    Two step
    Aperture Harmonics
    #17 - 2011-11-04 17:38:52 UTC
    Dread pilots can afford Fed Navy MFS's, which brings Moros DPS to 12900. Throw on a 5% damage implant and you have 13,545 DPS, according to pyfa.

    CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
    Arkady Sadik
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    #18 - 2011-11-04 17:40:32 UTC
    Oh, also on the topic of dreads: The massive difference of effectiveness between dread missiles and dread turrets against subcapitals needs to be addressed, either by making turrets equally useless or missiles as effective. Additionally, dreads should not have tracking/damage problems against simply moving supercarriers, especially as those can not be webbed/painted.
    Schmell
    Russian Thunder Squad
    Against ALL Authorities
    #19 - 2011-11-04 18:06:20 UTC
    1) Consider buffing dreads ehp a bit?

    2) Fix dreads bumping issue. You are never gonna use those shiny blasters on your moros, because basically now after jump you are flying hundreds kilometers away

    3) Consider nerfing capital guns tracking? 10 titans tearing apart subcapital fleet of any size...dunno
    Fenix Zealot
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #20 - 2011-11-04 19:26:06 UTC
    Here are my thoughts:

    -- capital weapons need a nerf to tracking so that titans are still effective vs slow/webbed/tped/stopped subcapitals, but not the instapop everything monsters they are now.
    -- IF capital weapons get a nerf to tracking, the siege tracking/signature penalty needs to be seriously reduced or completely removed. again, dreads should be marginally effective vs slowed/stopped or over painted subcapitals, but very weak against subcaps that move around intelligently (but not helpless of course)

    -- shield bonuses need to be applied immedietly. armor bonuses are applied instantly, why not shield? "shields recharge" excuses are clueless because the top 25% of shields recharge exponentially slower the closer you get to 100%

    -- supercarriers should not be nerfed QUITE so harshly. I personally like the idea of the reduced drone bay to force supers to tactically choose between fighters or fighter bombers, however, if that is done, i completely disagree with nerfing their drone bay to be only capable of fielding fighters/bombers and nothing else. it goes against the role of any drone boat (not to mention nobody would be stupid enough to realistically design such a flawed ship characteristic.

    Besides, a set of 20 or so sentry drones only provides the dps of 2 or 3 fully fit battleships, depending on skills. Heavy drones are a big joke for fleet fights anyways given their speed and how easily they can be bombed into dust.
    If a blob of supercarriers is fit with 20 fighter drones they AUGHT to shred appart battleship/battlecruiser fleets, but given their choice be completely countered by a bomber fitted enemy fleet.
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