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Languages

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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#1 - 2013-05-23 05:33:54 UTC
Well, here's a curious topic I came across, the apparent decline of French within France. Now I know from friends on Erasmus schemes that Universities in Italy now teach in English, or are in the midst of transitioning to be more international in nature. And apparently Academic circles in France are hoping to inch towards the same.

Now I know first hand two things, one, that the best English speaker I have met in person is Polish and picked it up over the internet and classes. This lends credence in conjunction with you fine ladies and gentlemen, that learning and mastering English is a necessity and possibly the most accessible second language on the planet.

Secondly, ashamed as I am to admit it, the UK is absolute pants at teaching languages, and coming up with motivations for learning it. The choice is French, or German in high school, that's it. It is not a necessity, and to a 14 year old Kirjava deciding whether to pick up Chemistry or French, chose Chemistry. The Languages I wanted to learn at the time were university only (Japanese and Russian) in classes at the time.

So where am I going with this, I'm curious to know what other countries positions on languages are, importance, how its taught and the like. I've seen hints that English is a core subject alongside Mathematics and mastery of the local language, as opposed to being an optional extra.

Its amazing really, that we've gotten to the point where there's a language, any one that is so internationally intelligible, but for us where its out mother tongue it has left us lazy and disadvantaged. I vote in one of them, and want to crack how to to fix it but I don't think its going to be an internal thing that changes it.

As a final thought, did you learn Commonwealth or American English?

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Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#2 - 2013-05-23 05:43:18 UTC
in high school my options for languages were spanish, french and german. i've never really been interested in spanish...even though it is the most useful second language in the states. so i took french one year then dropped it. i hated the teacher. total *****. i switched to german for the rest of my time in high school.

i found german to be fairly difficult. i was shocked to find out that as a high school senior i was learning like 2nd grade german...and having a hard time with it at that. lol
Graygor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-05-23 06:00:17 UTC
I left the uk monolingual now sit in tokyo 6 years later fluent in 3 and partial in 2 more.

I blame island mentality plus english being the lingua franca.

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NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#4 - 2013-05-23 07:06:57 UTC
Im from Norway and got..well..a 2 (highest is 6) in every english class i had at school. Wanted to learn german but was not allowed to take the class because of my bad grades in english Lol

I first had to actually learn english when i started to play EVE, before that i had no need for it at all really.
My mother still can not speak, read or understand english (something my husband is secretly pleased with since it means he dont have to talk to her Lol ).
Alara IonStorm
#5 - 2013-05-23 07:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
The first language you are taught should be your mother tongue.

The second a chosen world language taught young if possible by all countries designed to be the easiest language to learn..

The third, whatever you want.

I wonder why there is not a global language program by now... Ugh
Hrothgar Nilsson
#6 - 2013-05-23 07:53:53 UTC
French occupied a similar position in the medieval through early modern eras in Europe as English occupies in the world today.

I really don't know why anybody should feel ashamed that their language became paramount internationally. When France was the 3rd largest nation in the world by population and they didn't have to speak anyone else's languages, I'm sure the last thing they felt was shame.

I didn't take any languages in high school, but my university in the US required two years of a foreign language for my political science degree, and I studied German.

In the US, some high schools require foreign language study (of which most offer Spanish), some don't. Some universities don't require foreign language, and if they do it's usually only for liberal arts majors or, for example, you're a French studies major.

I don't really think the lack of knowledge of foreign language among Americans is a big deal - we're surrounded by two oceans, and have a Spanish-speaking nation to our south, and 7 million French speakers (equivalent to 2% of our population) to our north. It's not really the same as like Belgium or India, where you're maybe 50 miles at most from speakers of another language.

Our language is the most commonly spoken second language in the world, so it's less of a necessity to learn others. Unless you guilt trip or feel shame about it.
Marcus Gord
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-05-23 08:43:17 UTC
Native english here. learned some german in school, but since i've never used it since, i can now barely string a sentence together.

I like that it's easy for me to communicate on the internet, but i do wish i knew another language.

it's just rather hard to get the hang of something when you don't get to practice it.

As an aside, i love hearing different accents from around the world on TS, and i'm often amazed at how well people speak english as their second language, when i have so much trouble with their native language. One of the best english speakers i know is Belgian, and learned it from internet and english TV subbed in dutch.

So yeah. people like NC85 amaze me Smile

In a few moments you will have an experience that will seem completely real. It will be the result of your subconscious fears transformed to your conscious awareness.

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NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#8 - 2013-05-23 08:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: NightCrawler 85
Marcus Gord wrote:


So yeah. people like NC85 amaze me Smile


Well i will admit that my english appears better here on the forums then other times since it will show me when i spell something wrong, and google is a HUGE help to find the correct spelling Smile
And i know i will most likely never loose my accent, but i have been told more then once that its nice to listen to so guess i should be happy about that.

Now i just have to learn the proper grammar Lol

But thank you, i have been trying very hard to improve my english Smile
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#9 - 2013-05-23 09:00:30 UTC
NightCrawler 85 wrote:
Marcus Gord wrote:


So yeah. people like NC85 amaze me Smile


Well i will admit that my english appears better here on the forums then other times since it will show me when i spell something wrong, and google is a HUGE help to find the correct spelling Smile
And i know i will most likely never loose my accent, but i have been told more then once that its nice to listen to so guess i should be happy about that.

Now i just have to learn the proper grammar Lol

Says you in perfect grammer.

You give us a bad name when we go around, and resort to speaking English louder to what looks like a moron Evil

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Marcus Gord
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-05-23 09:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Gord
I'll lose my regional accent and dialect when i talk on TS, because it's difficult even for other native speakers to understand if they're not from my area.

I almost speak BBC english on TS.

Also yes, grammar looks fine to me. It's usually a telltale sign of a non native speaker though, getting word order wrong. But I barely even notice it anymore, I speak to so many non native speakers P

In a few moments you will have an experience that will seem completely real. It will be the result of your subconscious fears transformed to your conscious awareness.

http://i.imgur.com/LM2NKUf.png

NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#11 - 2013-05-23 09:08:02 UTC
Kirjava wrote:

Says you in perfect grammer.

You give us a bad name when we go around, and resort to speaking English louder to what looks like a moron Evil


This is actually something i have been curious about... Why on earth do people start to almost shout when they know the person is not a native english speaker? Or slow down to the point that it gets so long and drawn out that you basically hear them pronouncing every letter...

Maybe i just think differently since my mother is danish, and even after..40 years or so in Norway she cant speak it anywhere near fluently so im more used to talking to people that has a different language as their native one?
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#12 - 2013-05-23 09:10:54 UTC
I assume people think that if they speak slowly, loudly and clearly it will all click, like speaking to a 4 year old using more than 3 syllable words. Its basically people panicking.

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Marcus Gord
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-05-23 09:11:00 UTC
NightCrawler 85 wrote:
Kirjava wrote:

Says you in perfect grammer.

You give us a bad name when we go around, and resort to speaking English louder to what looks like a moron Evil


This is actually something i have been curious about... Why on earth do people start to almost shout when they know the person is not a native english speaker? Or slow down to the point that it gets so long and drawn out that you basically hear them pronouncing every letter...

Maybe i just think differently since my mother is danish, and even after..40 years or so in Norway she cant speak it anywhere near fluently so im more used to talking to people that has a different language as their native one?


I have no idea. Slowing down helps when i try to understand german, but louder doesn't help one bit.

It's just a bit stupid, imo.

In a few moments you will have an experience that will seem completely real. It will be the result of your subconscious fears transformed to your conscious awareness.

http://i.imgur.com/LM2NKUf.png

NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#14 - 2013-05-23 09:20:32 UTC
I can understand slowing down a bit...but some i have talked to really really slows down to the point were i feel like im about to fall asleep before they are done asking "How are you".
One thing i have a LOT of issues with is scottish. Some scottish accents are not to bad but others.. i sit there and try and guess when im supposed to say "aww" or "thats great or laugh based purely on their tone since i can not understand a word of what they are saying Lol
Marcus Gord
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-05-23 09:24:28 UTC
NightCrawler 85 wrote:
I can understand slowing down a bit...but some i have talked to really really slows down to the point were i feel like im about to fall asleep before they are done asking "How are you".
One thing i have a LOT of issues with is scottish. Some scottish accents are not to bad but others.. i sit there and try and guess when im supposed to say "aww" or "thats great or laugh based purely on their tone since i can not understand a word of what they are saying Lol


That's why i have to change how i speak on TS. i can go to the other side of the city i live near, and they have trouble understanding me.

A guy I work with comes from about 10 miles away, and has trouble understanding me at times.

as an example 'ah gorra goo up tahn t' get more tay, we ay got no more.'

coupled with speaking pretty quickly, it's difficult to understand.

translation 'i have to go into town to get more tea, we haven't got anymore'

In a few moments you will have an experience that will seem completely real. It will be the result of your subconscious fears transformed to your conscious awareness.

http://i.imgur.com/LM2NKUf.png

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#16 - 2013-05-23 20:59:49 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
The first language you are taught should be your mother tongue.

The second a chosen world language taught young if possible by all countries designed to be the easiest language to learn..

The third, whatever you want.

I wonder why there is not a global language program by now... Ugh


Heh.

My mother tongue it's catalonian, which albeit offically recognized, it's not the State language.
Then i also speak Spanish, which is almost impossible to NOT learn even if it wasn't being taught at school.

I read and specially write Spanish better than Catalonian, as my parents never had a chance to learn to write Catalonian properly nor have an habit of reading Catalonian. I was taught Catalonian in school (right before the school system changed dramtically in favor of Catalonian) and i guess my Catalan vocabulary is smaller than my Spanish one, as i've read Spanish in a 50:1 ratio versus Catalan.

In general terms, i am bilingual, as i learned both Catalonian and Spanish simultaneously and unconsciously. English is a language I learned as a foreign one, and then practiced it a lot, specially with the Internet.

One of the tricky things with languages, it's that words shape the world. What does have a name and what doesn't, it's something that builds a way to see and think the world.

FAI, if your parents die, you're orphan, but there's no name for the parents who lost their children. Why?

We think the wrold and word our thoughts, and so words make the world. This is why we so much oppose attemtps to make artificial languages, or being told to use somebody else's way to think the world and name it...

BTW, one of the reasons of English's success, it's the ease to name new things. Blink

Think of this: each time you ever said "compact disk", you were using a english name created by a Dutch company to christen their latest invention, made in cooperation with a Japanese company. Now let's say the CD had got a Dutch name... or a Japanese name... and then somebody said "no, let's call it Compact Disk!". "CD" would ahd swept away the other names, even if Compact Disk may be one of the most awful commercial names ever made...Lol
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#17 - 2013-05-23 22:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
I'm British but most of my education was gained in Germany, albeit in schools run for military kids. I did spend the best part of a year in the US and attended an american school while I was there, I stood out like a sore thumb with my english accent, although the teachers loved it.

I used to be fluent in German, but lack of use has made that somewhat rusty, it doesn't take long to pick it up again though, I can certainly follow a conversation in it but I can't join in. I also speak a smattering of French and Spanish, enough to order food and beer is about it though. The spanish laugh at my accent as I picked my spanish up from a venezuelan ex-girlfriend, and I definitely can't follow a conversation in it, the spanish speak too damn quickly it's like listening to a verbal machinegun.

Nightcrawler 85 wrote:
One thing i have a LOT of issues with is scottish
Be glad you've never come across a scouser, their accent is unintelligible, even to native english speakers.

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Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#18 - 2013-05-24 11:39:51 UTC
As someone for whom english is not his native tongue, I am continually amazed how native english speakers manage to get "their/there/they´re" wrong.

And "definitely"! Lol

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#19 - 2013-05-24 15:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
in high school my options for languages were spanish, french and german.

Likewise, plus Latin.

Spanish, in the US, is a pretty useful second language - I speak it well enough to get out of trouble.
I'm actually looking at learning Hindi and Chinese - both languages will be professionaly useful to me. Hindi first, I think. Russian or Polish, and maybe Japanese would be decent choices as secondary professional languages for me. Curiously, though I work for a Swedish company, I've never felt the need to learn Swedish. That may be because all my Swedish coleagues speak English very well.

Oddly, I have a largish number of Tajik-speaking contractors on-site at the moment. Many of them speak English far better than I.


Oh, and: American English, obviously. P


Edit:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I wonder why there is not a global language program by now... Ugh

See my signature. Blink It's been tried - it failed miserably due to apathy. Really, it's much easier to just pick an existing launguage and learn it, than to create an artificial languange, and get it adopted universally.

English is, objectively, actually a pretty difficult language - its own rules are ignored internally, and are full of special cases and exceptions. The best thing to be said for English is that it is comprehensively adaptable. It'll steal words, phrases, and concepts from any other languange. Twisted

Think of language as a map. Different maps take you to different places. Not all maps can get you to the same place - or at least not easily. But in English, if you can't get somewhere, you simply snip out a portion of someone else's map, and paste it onto your own. Voila! Problem solved.

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Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-05-24 15:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Frank Millar
Dutch person reporting in.

I learned English from watching English movies with Dutch subtitles on tv (when the picture was still black and white). At a certain point, when subtitles would cut out due to technical difficulties, I wouldn't notice any longer. I understand, read and write it proficiently enough, speaking it is sometimes a hassle because I live closer to the German border than the English one, haha.

Around the same time, I picked up German from watching German tv (they didn't do subtitles, and still don't, heh). So I can understand (and read) it perfectly and speak it reasonably. Writing it is pretty terrible, though.

I had those in school as well, ended with 9/10 for English and 7/10 for German, if I recall correctly.

I had a year of French as well, but I didn't like it one bit. Roman languages don't do it for me. Blink

After I went of holiday to Norway a few years back, I wanted to learn Norwegian. It seems "learnable" because the structure of the sentences is not unlike Dutch. It's just how it sounds and how you pronounce things that throws me off everytime.
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