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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#861 - 2011-11-04 16:31:59 UTC
I dont think blasters need more range. Traditionally they have always been about close up damage - straight to the face.

Trying to turn blasters into another form of lasers just homogenizes the weapons in EVE. It might be difficult for blaster boats to get on top of a target but when they do the pilot should reap the dividends. Adding a bit more CPU to allow blaster boats to more comfortably fit dual webs and a splash more damage and the solution is there.

C.
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#862 - 2011-11-04 16:48:12 UTC
Oh FFS. My post ended up as last on the page. Sigh. GO READ IT. Eh fuckit. Will just repost for the trolls.

WTF is this ****? Did you people suddenly go brain dead? Guess I should post what I said earlier so you people can ******* clue in.

Tracking and fitting were issues but so is damage. Currently blasters have barely any DPS edge over AC without the range, versatility, capless firing, ammo size, customizable damage, escapability, etc that AC's and Minmatar have. I know you people doubt me about the damage statement but you can see it in EFT for yourself with just raw DPS numbers, much less all the variables you then have to add in.

As a blaster pilot you plow into the center of the battle and commit yourself 100% and subject yourself to all the scrams, drones, neuts, webs, etc. The blasters have pitiful range. They barely out damage AC's even in the optimal of that range and because of the range they need to be in they require tons more tracking. Add to the fact that blasters in their hay day were also combined with things like a Thorax launching 7 heavy drones. Then CCP buffed HP on all ship hulls. Then came rigs which buffed EHP even more. Then the other weapon systems got boosted. Blasters no longer were TOTALHELLDEATH if you came in range of them.

The changes are a first step but they are hardly enough. There needs to be not a range bonus or speed but a massive DPS and tracking boost to make them acceptable for the risk of flying straight into a fleet and committing 100% to the battle with no hope of escape. That is the Gallente way and IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#863 - 2011-11-04 17:51:26 UTC
FYI THE BOOST IS NOW LIVE... Please down load the test cleint and start teasting out the boosted hybrids... then post on this thread for comments...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Shmekla
I Have a Plan
#864 - 2011-11-04 17:54:25 UTC
Creat Posudol wrote:

First of all: bad example! Interceptors aren't exactly the typical blaster boats even if they happen to fit blasters (like a Taranis). Interceptor fighting is even more problematic as a comparison since your controls are delayed (from the time you doublelick to turn to the time the ship actually reacts) and that makes a much bigger difference at 4 km/s compared to 1.5 km/s with a BS that needs at about half a minute to reach that speed.

How about we look at a thorax vs. rupture or mega vs. tempest? If I see the rupture/tempest come straight at me I can doubleclick in the reverse direction to "actively break" (twice as good deceleration compared to ctrl-space), if timed right he'll be right beside me when our speeds match, commence face melting. If I screw it up he'll have the advantage, as I said it comes down to pilot skill. Not as much with interceptors as the inherent control delays screw you much more than the actual opponent does.
If he decides to immediately try and keep range on me I'm screwed with just acceleration. I can't catch up, EVER. With straight line speed I'll at least get closer over time until I can start shooting, at which point he can try to break away, giving me trouble keeping up with his fast turns. But unless I'm in range I have a pretty easy time to compensate: If he is 15km away (I won't hurt him that much, even with large blasters) and does a 90° turn, I only need to compensate about 20° or so to adjust to a new interception point, which even with such a sluggish ship is not too big of a deal. If he then reverses I have to readjust (including distance I already closed to him) more like 60°, taking more time and speed, but I'm also closer and am therefore dealing at least some more damage.

But in any case: if I'm slow (web/scram), he's also slow for the same reason! Furthermore with a BS he WILL be in kill range! depending on the fit also mostly for cruiser sized ships/guns. The only time this is a serious problem is with frigs! Have I mentioned how badly that example represents what is generally referred to as blaster boats?

BTW: can't wait to get real-time joystick control! I do hope that happens some day soon...


Taranis is typical blaster user, as Thorax, Deimos or Mega. I put this example to show how easy speed can backfire on blaster boat, but you failed to catch my point.
Also in engagement if you will wait to see what opponent will do - you'll die. you take out of content my point about dashing, or even not read post clearly.

Creat Posudo wrote:

If he decides to immediately try and keep range on me I'm screwed with just acceleration. I can't catch up, EVER.
.

And again you failed to understand, that blaster boat must get speed faster than opponent. That mean in first seconds if your opponent traveled 5 km, you already covered 10.

If you bet on speed that mean blaster boat need to go faster than minmatars, and way faster because blaster boats must catch target before dies. But speed is for minmatars.... so there is a little contradiction, isn't it?
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#865 - 2011-11-04 18:00:36 UTC
Bummer, I was hoping to see a CCP response today. Even a couple of lines can help focus the discussion.

Things are starting to look a bit grim with the silence. Wonder what we are going to see. The idea of messing with rigs seems like a poor idea. It affects too many aspects of the game and in the end will only make the other platforms that much better over the hybrid boats, particularly if Amarr gets a speed bonus from changes to armor rigs and the shield tanked Minmatar boats don't get a sig radius increase from shield rigs, because they already enjoy a very low sig radius to start with. Messing with rigs just impacts so many other aspects of ship designs of all the races. The changes need to be Gallente boats specifically. Caldari long range rails I think is simpler to deal with directly to the rail gun stats.

I think the most succinct argument to date is that there is just no good reason to fly Gallente boats. Whether you are talking solo/small groups or in bigger fleets. They tend to be more expensive and every time you go into a fight, you are committed 100%. All the other races can fight aligned or kite out of damage and warp. Even fighting within single point range is viable and can be exited from with MWD. Gallente fight inside scram/web/neut range. The cost/benefit just isn't there. In the POP,POP, POP of fleet fights its often very frustrating for a Gallente pilot to try and get into range of primary as targets change. Right as you get there, primary goes pop and now new primary is far away again. Even with frigate tackler support most Hurricanes have such high tracking that if frigs try to tackle with a scram on, they die. But scram is what is need to slow the immense speed of these ships.

There has to be a reason to fly Gallente over other options. Currently there are none, except maybe the Arazu.

SPEED/AGILITY arguments: These boats need both but I think agility cannot be overlooked or nerfed. The speed required to catch a kiting target is ridiculously high and only viable for small ships. We don't have to be faster than Minmatar, but we need a bit more than now. Tactics and using a cloaky or a inty is key to this effort. But even if you can land at zero on a kiter, by the time you align, approach, target and try to apply scram/web, they are out of range. So the ability to quickly achieve speed is key for any hope of catching targets. This also applies to orbiting w/ speed in a fight and the ability to rapidly change direction in fleet fights as different targets are called. And we must do this as we lack weapon range to be effective otherwise. CCP is on the right track with increasing this directly to Gallente ships, they just need a larger increase directly applied to overcome the rig penalties a bit. Removing rig penalties or changing them only then make the other races more appealing.

The SECOND BONUS: Any Gallente ship that has the horrible 7.5 armor repair bonus(and the stupid Thorax's MWD cap bonus) should have that replaced with something that assists with controlling range in a fight. My recommendation would be for some, like the Brutix to have a significant range bonus to SCRAMs only. Some should have a bonus to WEB velocity factor or WEB range. This would make them much more capable of achieving a lock down when warping in on someone. Catching a kiter is rarely viable in a pure speed race. That requires good use of cloaky's and inty's.

Tank: Fine, Gallente should be shield tanked to be a close in brawlers w/speed, but they are not. Even some ships that will attempt shield tanking like the Myrm and Hyperion just aren't as effective since their sig radius are already big, and when shield tanked the Myrm is almost Battleship size. A fully shield tanked cane is roughly the same sig radius as a armor tanked Mrym. CCP will not support 3 shield tanked races. So the tank needs to be impressive on a brawling, close in fighter that has to commit 100% every time to every fight. Half the reason why people don't fly gallente is that they get tired of being killed because they have to commit every time to do so. Can't warp of like every one else. So do a slight plug of the Explosive hole in every Gallente ship to help increase tank. Maybe 20% to T1 hulls, higher in others.

HYBRIDS: Ok, Blasters. They have the worst aspects of lasers and projectiles and none of the benefits.
1) Since they will deal with the highest transversal (closest to the center of the orbit circle), they should have the highest tracking. This needs serious boost since low slots on armor tanks have to be dedicated to armor unlike the shield tanked Minmatar boats.
2) Instant ammo changes to help control application of DPS in the high stress/quick decision cycle of close in fighting.
3) Much lower CAP usage as we fight in Neut territory. I'd say remove all together frankly. Or give a utility high slot to every Gallente boat for a vampire perhaps. (which some have, and probably boost performance of vampires in general)
4) Increase damage by 30%. Make them dominate the close in fight and give people a reason to commit to the fight and probably still lose their ship.
5) Increase range by just a bit of optimal. Not crazy but on some of these its damn near seems like zero. Just perhaps 10% to optimal.
6) Get rid of void's tracking/cap penalty. If you can get this close, you deserve to **** your target.
DRONES: Add a Scram drone. That would help with catching kiters. They still have a chance to blow up the drones before you catch them. I would think that with 3 light scram drones applying effects, that should be enough to shut down the MWD. the other 2 are buffer or even web drones. Some of the Gallente Drone boats need some love. A bit of bandwidth would help some for the Mrym for sure.

So that's my piece of advice that will absolutely get ignored and probably trolled.
Zhephell
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#866 - 2011-11-04 18:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhephell
Sry, in my post in page 43 I have wrote at the end:
(‘’With this no one will want a rock or an apoc as sniper (true snipers will be worst), so please don´t do this 12% pw reduction in rails, and if you do this change the 5% damage bonus of gallente ships to 5% damage bonus only with blasters, and put a 10% blaster optimal range as compensation, but please don´t put a t2 and a t3 high dps sniper and fast high dps blaster boats at the same time. T T’’)

I was trying to say this:
(With this no one will want a rock or an apoc as sniper (true snipers will be worst), so please don´t do this 12% pw reduction in rails, and if you finally do this modification ( the 12% of power reduction), change the 5% damage bonus of gallente ships to 5% damage bonus only with blasters, and put a 10% blaster optimal range as compensation, but please don´t put a t2 and a t3 high dps sniper and fast high dps blaster boats at the same time. T T)
Oops


David Xavier wrote:
@Zhephell

Railguns use more CPU than beam lasers. Using your comparison a tech II 425mm railgun uses 77 while a tech II Tachyon only requires 63.

In case of 8 weapons the difference is 112 CPU, that is quite a lot. So live with it, hybrid weapons require more CPU in exchange for less PG.

Let's looks at the rest :

  • Lasers have far better tracking. This frees up module or rig slots.
  • Even if you use tech II crystals you need far less cargo space to carry your ammunition with you.
  • Should you need a new or other type of crystal you can change to that instantly.
  • Have better damage, that is for now.


Instead of tracking enchanters you can fit other modules. Not to mention probes made sniping from 150km (warp range) or farther pointless.


On a side note artillery turrets require both less PG and less CPU than lasers, why don't you whine about that ?


Well I don´t speak about artillery because this balance will be to hybrid weapons, not to projectile weapons.

Yes, you have reason cpu is bigger in rails, but they´ll reduce cpu to 74, now it is 77 and t2 tachyons need 63, this difference of cpu is 12, so t2 425mm rails cpu it is 22.2% higher that t2 tachyons, and caldari and gallente ships have more cpu.
And now one tachyon t2 use 4125 of power grid and t2 425 rails 2625, this difference is = 1500 of power who is the same as 57.1% more power needed, but amarr ships have more power as gallente and caldari ships have more cpu, but it change much more 57.1% more power needed that a difference of 22.2% of cpu

And with this balance the cpu of t2 425 mm rails will be 74, so it´ll be 17.5% more cpu needed for t2 425mm rails, and if they reduce a 12% the power need in rails, t2 425mm rail power will be 2310 and tachyons 4125 and it is 1815 less that one tachion, so is the same as 78.6% more power needed to use one tachyon t2. One of bonus that has rails is that the need les power , so if they´ll balance rails they have to balance it on its handicaps, no on its advantages.

Well I know that lasers have better tracking, and don´t need ammunition, or that can change its crystals instantly, and have more damage, but as rails they can´t choose damage, but artillery has less tacking and range in return.
With lasers you need one of your 2 ship bonus to reduce the capacitor used by weapons, this bonus is used by gallente as 5% more damage per lvl and caldari have 5% more resistances in shied per lvl
So if you have your ship skill at lvl 5 ( 50% reduction in capacitor need by energy weapons) it continue using more capacitor, and now that hybrids capacitor need will be reduce 30% it ll be more perceptible, and long range bonus of energy weapons are 7.5% per lvl and not 10% as caldari long range bonus.

So I think that request that they remove the 12% reduction in power grid need to rails (not to blasters),or otherwise ( if they apply this power reduction), i request to change gallente ships bonus to 5% more of damage per lvl only to blasters with a compensation of 10% more optimal range in blaster guns, it isn´t an exceeded request.

It is my opinion, not trying to criticize you Blink
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#867 - 2011-11-04 19:02:16 UTC
Minmie trolls don't want to be worse than now (the perfect example of how a noob can win a 5-years old player)
Amarr players don't want his lasers nerfed.
Every time they lose their arguments they say that hybrid were the firsts OP in the game. And won't allow it happens again. But they don't think they are far better than before, and the others also need to be better ¬¬

Make dissapear hybrid and put lasers to gallente and projectiles to Caldari.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#868 - 2011-11-04 19:30:19 UTC
There's a fix that's been mentioned a few times, and I would like to bring-it-up again.
I think it's a great idea.
Hopefully if we get enough discusion, and support CCP will take notice.

The proposal is fairly simple.
Some hybrid ships should get a bonus to MWD (and maybe AB) speed boost.
I don't know what exact # would make the most sense, maybe 5% per skill level?

If it was thought that this would be too much of a buff, then it could come at the expence of increased cap-use.

That's it. That's the idea.
I know it's already been said by a few people, but it's a kick-ass idea, and I think it deserves serious consideration.

Here's why I think this would be good.

What's the #1 problem most blaster boats face in PVP?

Blasters have such a short optimal, that you have to be super-close to get good hits.
Blaster-boats are usually passive armor-tanked slow-ass bricks.
See the issue?

You're flying the slowest ship with the shortest-range guns.

If they could get a bonus to MWD speed boost, blaster-boats could actually get into range.
They wouldn't be the fastest ship naturally, and the speed-boost would be temporary until the cap runs-out.

With blasters you have to get into range before you're out-of cap and armor. Right-now blaster boats can't do this (at least not without getting a lucky warp-in). Winmatar pilots just laugh thier asses-off blasting-away with ACs, kitting the sh!t out of you.

With the proposed fix, you could actually get into range before it's too late. You could actually USE the dmg of blasters to compensate for all the dmg take just getting into range. What an awesome balance that could bring.

With more speed and the buff to rail damage coming, who knows? We might even see rail-kiting as a viable strategy for some of these hybrid ships. Can you imagine the kiting slug-fest between a fast Rail-Brutix and a Cane? The Brutix could maintain range until the cap runs-low, then it's anybody's game. This could bring back rails (at least the medium ones) as a viable PVP weapon too.

Thoughts?
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#869 - 2011-11-04 19:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Torp
Sydney Nelson wrote:

If they could get a bonus to MWD speed boost, blaster-boats could actually get into range.
They wouldn't be the fastest ship naturally, and the speed-boost would be temporary until the cap runs-out.

[...]
What an awesome balance that could bring.
[...]

Thoughts?


I have quoted the bad points of this idea:
- You get into range. Let's put Hyperion. OK. Your cap is depleted (maybe) and you start hitting the kitter. In adittion, even with nerfed capacitor use of hybrids, they still use cap. The kitter is faster than you by base velocity. Your cap is fully depleted (maybe with good cap management skills you can shoot a bit more, maybe). 5 seconds later the kitter:
- Switch on (again) his MWD, as their DPS don't use capacitor. Let's suppose Tempest. It outranges your blasters.
- Switch on (still and probably perma-run) his Shield Booster. Let's suppose Maelstrom. It tanks (enough) your blasters.

And, in adittion, he's is still shooting you.
Minmatar CAN'T BE fastest race of 4, specially against a race fat, slow and with the shortest range weapons. It's simple.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#870 - 2011-11-04 20:09:48 UTC
New Brawler-Rokh

Hign Slots
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Caldari Navy Antimatar Charge)

Med Slots
1x Stasis Webifier II
2x Large Shield Extender II
2x Invulnerability Field II
1x Quad LiF Fueled Booster Rockets

Low SLots
4xMagnetic Field Stabilizer II
1xDamage Control II

Drone Bay
5x Valkyrie II

Rigs:
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I


AWU 5
Without MWD 24 mins cap
Optimal - 7.76 Falloff-17.634 Tracking 0.071 DPS - 926 /CN Animatar
optimal 19.4 Falloff - 22 Tracking 0.053 DPS - 738 /NULL

How does it look?
Lebowski31
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#871 - 2011-11-04 20:22:57 UTC
At last .... I welcome such excellent news !

But it might be still not enough for Gallente/Hybrids (like me) to face other races in solo PvP.

My advices and comments will be :
- tracking speed needs much more than you already propose
- will it be possible to create a 'tracking speed bonus' ratio per ammo ?
- DPS should be increase a bit more

All other proposals are fine with me, as it was exactly what I was critisizing silently ...

It welcome CCP's new orientation on finally listening capsuleers.

Hope to check that soon on World Collide for example, prior solo PvP,

Thanks
Blink
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#872 - 2011-11-04 20:23:03 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Right, so since Gallente is bloody damn powerful up close already, but rails are fail and blasters have fallen out of favour (it never was made for nullsec blob fights anyway, but hey), here's my take on what could solve this;

Give Gallente an innate 90% web bonus (as others suggested). But - give it a massive stacking penalty. I.e. if you apply two webs, they'll only be 90.1% or something. It would be ridicilous if we came back to the point where we can't get back to gates purely because there's Gallente sitting on the field.

To put some perspective where I'm coming from: http://kenny.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10928688
That happened just some day ago. The Drake jumped through the gate I was sitting on, I single-webbed (yes, not dual web) him and he only got about halfways back to the gate before he died. The Machariel did not even join in until five seconds before the Drake died, I believe, just to get on the killmail.

I.e. Vindicator functions like the old Megas did, and work "as a Gallente/blaster-ship". If Gallente would work innate like that, it would make blasters bloody damn powerful even at current stats, and solve alot of the issues. But multiple webs would just make it gamebreaking, and that's something even I (even tho I'd benefit from it) wouldn't want to see. (not to mention how overpowered every railship would be, they could just web-kite anything to death)


If you give web strgth to some ships:

Webs should be just like DCU's, you shouldn't be able to fit more than one, has for warp jamers but it's another problem since Damps are crap and it's gallente reccon bonus has well, maybe these hulls could fit more than one after changes (if).

Now everyone is afraid of 90% webs, just do the math with 10% per level on 60% webs knowing most people don't train the 5th point on T2 ships since the time training is totally ridiculous for such small reward.

Either 10% web strgth per level or 15% range on web and scram (not disruptor) - this would probably help blaster hulls get to the range and do the job without forum threads and rivers of tears because of 90% webs almost no one would have.


That's fine, the key is to not make webs as powerful as they were before, since these days we don't have nano in the same regard it has to be sensible. Not sure about the scram bonus you suggest tho, there's specific ships out there with those bonuses, and they fill that niche/role quite well. Proteus being a swiss army knife, Lachesis and Arazu suffering from crappy damps but at least having the scram-role. The web tho, I agree.

/below is not releated to your post btw, just general statement

And wtf is up with all people that ask for Gallente to have Minmatar speed, and want Blasters to compete with AC's for range? Heh. Why even have different weaponsystems if they're gonna be so similar? Blasters hit harder and Gallente are slower, that's how it functions, if you don't want to fly a slow but hard-hitting race, well then you trained wrong stuff my friend.

Misanth is whatever 100mil SP and have all BS 5, but he doesn't even have small projectiles t2. I chose to not train with him. I've got other characters to perform that role. You won't see me whining about Blasters being overwhelming, I actually rather use them. But I don't fly in nullsec blobs. With the current mobile-but-not-nano mechanics we have, the ongrid warping etc, it's just no point using Blasters. You'd want Rails. That's where you should complain, that's the weaponsystem you got for those ranges, and yes it does not work. Rails are the issue, not Blasters.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#873 - 2011-11-04 20:34:17 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Cornette wrote:
...



CCP why buffed matars ? Because everyone used before matar weapon buff the amarrian ships. Amarrian ships was overpowered above all ship types because their ridiculous scorch range. Shot from 45km range from optimal without any bonus and + 10km from falloff against 3km optimal+17km falloff??? When matar ships didn't have falloff bonuses or enough speed was crap. Their main advantages was their speed over tanking.
Matar ships with their paper hull was the worst ship after speed nerf and they needed to compensate them when lost their speeds. Thx but not need matar nerf again, when amarrian can shot with scorch like a long range weapon.
Need a fine solution for hybrid and rail platform for bring back to line them, but not need nerf any other weapon system.
I never understand crying babies on forum, who cry because of falloff.
Shoting from falloff is crap. Never was better a gun with 5km optimal+25km falloff than a 30km optimal range weapon which have better tracking and which have more +10km falloff too.
I know hybrid system need rethinking, but the other nerf is unacceptable when some other ships "finaly" useable.

Need smarter changes than nerf.

Need rethinking gallentean ship bonuses.
They are too slow to reach their targets ?? Give to them scram range bonus 5 or 7.5%/lvl and they can be shut down enemy mwd from farther distance and they will be get the chances to aproaching their targets to shorter range in faster time.
Or web 5 or 7.5% range/lvl and they can be slowing enemies from farther distances.
If they can reach the paper hull targets faster there, they would be repeal them with their huge damage.

Rails need better changes, need better DPS over all sniper ships, because they have worst alpha.
10% + damage multiplier wont be enough, need more 10 ROF too or wont be using them no one again after this patch.
We want to see more useable ship types in fleets.
Many ships is unuseable in games. I can flight at least 200 shiptypes with t2 guns, but most of ship unuseable and i don't want to flight with them.
EW frigs ? Need rethinking. Gallentean ships need rethinking. Most of caldari ship unuseable in pvp. etc
Dramiel ? I dont understand CCP why made a frig over interceptor speed ? Who want to using ceptors if a developer create a more powerful and faster ships in the frig class?
Need better balances for ship usage or player base wont be use the other ships when they got a overpowered ships in their class.


Now, while annoying to read that (language and structure), it's one of the best posts I've seen in this whole thread.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#874 - 2011-11-04 21:04:58 UTC
Sorry CCP, but you're in dire need of some more iteration here.

The important points that have gone unanswered:
-Rails, why use them? Their dps post-buff isn't even up there with beams and their alpha is even lower. The entire concept of sniping at the range rails were designed around is gone because of on-grid probe mechanics. They are, in essence, the most fleet-dependant weapon system in the game and yet they have absolutely no desireable characteristics that would make them wanted in a fleet.

-Ship Bonuses on hybrid platforms: Range bonuses are absolutely sadistic (see above). Repair module bonuses are cute and niche, but it would help if they were more generally applicable.

There are a lot of ship stat modifications, rig modifications you might consider, but I don't think any of them in combination can really make up for the primary problems of when you'd even want to use railguns (or blasters) at all. Expand the effective usage of hyrbids, then worry about the ships individually.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#875 - 2011-11-04 21:19:14 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Sydney Nelson wrote:

If they could get a bonus to MWD speed boost, blaster-boats could actually get into range.
They wouldn't be the fastest ship naturally, and the speed-boost would be temporary until the cap runs-out.

[...]
What an awesome balance that could bring.
[...]

Thoughts?


I have quoted the bad points of this idea:
- You get into range. Let's put Hyperion. OK. Your cap is depleted (maybe) and you start hitting the kitter. In adittion, even with nerfed capacitor use of hybrids, they still use cap. The kitter is faster than you by base velocity. Your cap is fully depleted (maybe with good cap management skills you can shoot a bit more, maybe). 5 seconds later the kitter:
- Switch on (again) his MWD, as their DPS don't use capacitor. Let's suppose Tempest. It outranges your blasters.
- Switch on (still and probably perma-run) his Shield Booster. Let's suppose Maelstrom. It tanks (enough) your blasters.

And, in adittion, he's is still shooting you.
Minmatar CAN'T BE fastest race of 4, specially against a race fat, slow and with the shortest range weapons. It's simple.


I understand what you're saying, but there has to be a draw-back otherwise MWD bonused ships would be the new "I win" button.
The draw-back in this case is that you use-up a large portion of cap "sprinting" to get into range of the kiter.

There are other tactics that can be employed to help. The Hype is a good example as it has a few mid-slots.
Fit a scram and dual-webs. If the kiter has a scram and web, you will still be-able to keep him in range because you have an extra web. If he doesn't have a scram, you can keep him in range. If he has scram and dual-web, he probably doesn't have much for tank, etc...

Another tactic would be to fit dual cap-boosters to ensure you still have enough cap left-over after your "sprint".

The kiter has to have some-way to excape/counter, otherwise blaser ships become overpowered.
Remember the point is to bring better, more-interesting balance to the game. I think this idea does a good-job of that.
Not knocking your post, it's good to entertain all arguments. I appreciate you respectfully bringing concerns to the table.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#876 - 2011-11-04 21:38:43 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
[quote=Misanth]stuff...


And wtf is up with all people that ask for Gallente to have Minmatar speed, and want Blasters to compete with AC's for range? Heh. Why even have different weaponsystems if they're gonna be so similar? Blasters hit harder and Gallente are slower, that's how it functions, if you don't want to fly a slow but hard-hitting race, well then you trained wrong stuff my friend.



VERY few people are asking for Blasters compete with ACs for range. That's not a good fix, that makes them basically the same weapon.

The speed thing is KEY however. You say "Blasters hit harder and Gallente are slower, that's how it functions", but I don't think you realize the repercussions of this fact.

If you are flying a slow ship with a very short range, how in the *** are you going to kill anything without getting lucky?!?!
Who would be dumb enough to get within range of you?!
How could you possibly get close enough to hope to do any real damage?!
The only-other ships you might be lucky-enough to catch are going to be heavily-armored, hard-hitting ships just like yours.
So the only ships blaster-ships can engage are other blaster-ships. What's the point of that?

The idea I (and many others) have, is to allow blaster-ships to "sprint" for short periods of time at the expence of using lots of cap.
They wouldn't naturally be the fastest, just fastest for short periods of time. This way at least they have a chance vs a kiter.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#877 - 2011-11-04 21:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
To you people wanting Gallente ships to special little snowflakes GTFO my EVE. Seriously.

The only thing Gallente needs are buffs to guns and to hulls, no matter in what form as long they are adequate (which they aren't anywhere near close after playing a round of SiSi brawl with my corp a hour ago.)

CCP has their hands full with the Winter expansion, don't **** things up for the rest of us.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#878 - 2011-11-04 21:50:05 UTC
Cailais wrote:
I dont think blasters need more range. Traditionally they have always been about close up damage - straight to the face.

Trying to turn blasters into another form of lasers just homogenizes the weapons in EVE. It might be difficult for blaster boats to get on top of a target but when they do the pilot should reap the dividends. Adding a bit more CPU to allow blaster boats to more comfortably fit dual webs and a splash more damage and the solution is there.

C.


If i have more CPU, be sure i won't use it to fit a dual web.... i don't have enought med slot to waste them
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#879 - 2011-11-04 21:58:40 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
To you people wanting Gallente ships to special little snowflakes GTFO my EVE. Seriously.

The only thing Gallente needs are buffs to guns and to hulls, no matter in what form as long they are adequate (which they aren't anywhere near close after playing a round of SiSi brawl with my corp a hour ago.)

CCP has their hands full with the Winter expansion, don't **** things up for the rest of us.


LOL! For those of us who don't speak "incomprehendable", WTF does your post mean?
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#880 - 2011-11-04 22:08:48 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Sorry CCP, but you're in dire need of some more iteration here.

The important points that have gone unanswered:
-Rails, why use them? Their dps post-buff isn't even up there with beams and their alpha is even lower. The entire concept of sniping at the range rails were designed around is gone because of on-grid probe mechanics. They are, in essence, the most fleet-dependant weapon system in the game and yet they have absolutely no desireable characteristics that would make them wanted in a fleet.

-Ship Bonuses on hybrid platforms: Range bonuses are absolutely sadistic (see above). Repair module bonuses are cute and niche, but it would help if they were more generally applicable.


Pleeeease change all the rail range bonuses to damage ;D

Ferox #1