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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1321 - 2013-05-21 13:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: drake duka
CCP Rise wrote:
Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.

I think 'broken' isn't very likely. The bigger problem, I think, is that Typhoon and Tempest are fighting for a very similar space in the meta because of both being fast, flexible battleships. Maelstrom will continue to be more popular in very large fights because of it's alpha and larger ehp as well as being more popular for pve because of it's strong tank. I'm not sure thats a big problem though. The Tempest is going to be extremely versatile, and will actually play a lot differently than the Typhoon, so I think they can happily co-exist.


Another small point - seems like a lot of people focused on the relationship between Tornado and Tempest. I'm playing around right now with standard shield AC fits for both and get the following stats:

Tornado: 22k ehp, 1580m/sec, 780dps

Tempest: 57k ehp, 1251m/sec, 860dps

The Tempest of course crushes the Tornado in a 1v1 (I know this isn't the most important way to compare them), and on top of that it has 2 high slot utility + some room to play with mid slots. There's a lot of factors at work (including price), and I know speed is probably the most important attribute to look at it, but there's still a very strong case here for the Tempest. On top of the way it competes directly within this fitting style, the Tempest can do all kinds of other things like armor tanking, remote repping, tackling, etc.

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.

Tempest has nearly twice the align time, no falloff bonus, AND requires cap boosters to run its mwd. No, the tempest isn't exactly "broken" right now, it's just underwhelming/mediocre. The only role unique to the tempest is "oversized shield cane" which it just doesn't do very well. The purpose of nano shield gangs are to avoid taking damage altogether, tempest suffers by having poor damage application, very bad agility and the inability to use mwd for a prolonged period. If it could keep its mwd going like a BC, then it would have a role but the fact that it needs to waste its utility med on a cap booster kind of takes away from it.

Having 2 bonuses result in sub-par dps is also unfortunate, consolidating the dps bonus and giving it something else would make it much more competitive. If it has 2 dps bonuses can it at least have competitive dps too? Fighting in deep falloff with already mediocre dps isn't fun (and te nerf).

The problem is most other bs are getting substantial buffs. The tempest is sub-par for any realistic BS gang as it is, buffs to every other bs will make it that much more undesirable.

Can you comment on the effect of nerfed TE's on the tempest? If there is a competitive role for any ship, people will find and use it. There are PLENTY of reasons why people don't use the tempest (assuming they can use other racial bs), if there was a role then we would see it being used. 7 m/s buff won't change that, especially when every other bs is becoming more attractive.

Also, 1v1 ability is totally irrelevant unless we're on SiSi. Tempest is the gnosis of battleships, it can do anything but does none of those things well.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1322 - 2013-05-21 13:20:37 UTC
drake duka wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.

I think 'broken' isn't very likely. The bigger problem, I think, is that Typhoon and Tempest are fighting for a very similar space in the meta because of both being fast, flexible battleships. Maelstrom will continue to be more popular in very large fights because of it's alpha and larger ehp as well as being more popular for pve because of it's strong tank. I'm not sure thats a big problem though. The Tempest is going to be extremely versatile, and will actually play a lot differently than the Typhoon, so I think they can happily co-exist.


Another small point - seems like a lot of people focused on the relationship between Tornado and Tempest. I'm playing around right now with standard shield AC fits for both and get the following stats:

Tornado: 22k ehp, 1580m/sec, 780dps

Tempest: 57k ehp, 1251m/sec, 860dps

The Tempest of course crushes the Tornado in a 1v1 (I know this isn't the most important way to compare them), and on top of that it has 2 high slot utility + some room to play with mid slots. There's a lot of factors at work (including price), and I know speed is probably the most important attribute to look at it, but there's still a very strong case here for the Tempest. On top of the way it competes directly within this fitting style, the Tempest can do all kinds of other things like armor tanking, remote repping, tackling, etc.

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.

Tempest has nearly twice the align time, no falloff bonus, AND requires cap boosters to run its mwd. No, the tempest isn't exactly "broken" right now, it's just underwhelming/mediocre. The only role unique to the tempest is "oversized shield cane" which it just doesn't do very well. The problem is most other bs are getting substantial buffs. The tempest is sub-par for any realistic BS gang as it is, buffs to every other bs will make it that much more undesirable.

Can you comment on the effect of nerfed TE's on the tempest? If there is a competitive role for any ship, people will find and use it. There are PLENTY of reasons why people don't use the tempest (assuming they can use other racial bs), if there was a role then we would see it being used. 7 m/s buff won't change that, especially when every other bs is becoming more attractive.



The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.


Typhoon is a bigger ship moedl wise, look fatter, has higher base speed. Do not see why the tmpest cannto have same mass as typhoon.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1323 - 2013-05-21 13:23:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
drake duka wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.

I think 'broken' isn't very likely. The bigger problem, I think, is that Typhoon and Tempest are fighting for a very similar space in the meta because of both being fast, flexible battleships. Maelstrom will continue to be more popular in very large fights because of it's alpha and larger ehp as well as being more popular for pve because of it's strong tank. I'm not sure thats a big problem though. The Tempest is going to be extremely versatile, and will actually play a lot differently than the Typhoon, so I think they can happily co-exist.


Another small point - seems like a lot of people focused on the relationship between Tornado and Tempest. I'm playing around right now with standard shield AC fits for both and get the following stats:

Tornado: 22k ehp, 1580m/sec, 780dps

Tempest: 57k ehp, 1251m/sec, 860dps

The Tempest of course crushes the Tornado in a 1v1 (I know this isn't the most important way to compare them), and on top of that it has 2 high slot utility + some room to play with mid slots. There's a lot of factors at work (including price), and I know speed is probably the most important attribute to look at it, but there's still a very strong case here for the Tempest. On top of the way it competes directly within this fitting style, the Tempest can do all kinds of other things like armor tanking, remote repping, tackling, etc.

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.

Tempest has nearly twice the align time, no falloff bonus, AND requires cap boosters to run its mwd. No, the tempest isn't exactly "broken" right now, it's just underwhelming/mediocre. The only role unique to the tempest is "oversized shield cane" which it just doesn't do very well. The problem is most other bs are getting substantial buffs. The tempest is sub-par for any realistic BS gang as it is, buffs to every other bs will make it that much more undesirable.

Can you comment on the effect of nerfed TE's on the tempest? If there is a competitive role for any ship, people will find and use it. There are PLENTY of reasons why people don't use the tempest (assuming they can use other racial bs), if there was a role then we would see it being used. 7 m/s buff won't change that, especially when every other bs is becoming more attractive.



The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.


Typhoon is a bigger ship moedl wise, look fatter, has higher base speed. Do not see why the tmpest cannto have same mass as typhoon.


The phoon should be faster in straight line but the tempest should have the lower sig and much lower mass.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1324 - 2013-05-21 13:26:21 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
drake duka wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.

I think 'broken' isn't very likely. The bigger problem, I think, is that Typhoon and Tempest are fighting for a very similar space in the meta because of both being fast, flexible battleships. Maelstrom will continue to be more popular in very large fights because of it's alpha and larger ehp as well as being more popular for pve because of it's strong tank. I'm not sure thats a big problem though. The Tempest is going to be extremely versatile, and will actually play a lot differently than the Typhoon, so I think they can happily co-exist.


Another small point - seems like a lot of people focused on the relationship between Tornado and Tempest. I'm playing around right now with standard shield AC fits for both and get the following stats:

Tornado: 22k ehp, 1580m/sec, 780dps

Tempest: 57k ehp, 1251m/sec, 860dps

The Tempest of course crushes the Tornado in a 1v1 (I know this isn't the most important way to compare them), and on top of that it has 2 high slot utility + some room to play with mid slots. There's a lot of factors at work (including price), and I know speed is probably the most important attribute to look at it, but there's still a very strong case here for the Tempest. On top of the way it competes directly within this fitting style, the Tempest can do all kinds of other things like armor tanking, remote repping, tackling, etc.

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.

Tempest has nearly twice the align time, no falloff bonus, AND requires cap boosters to run its mwd. No, the tempest isn't exactly "broken" right now, it's just underwhelming/mediocre. The only role unique to the tempest is "oversized shield cane" which it just doesn't do very well. The problem is most other bs are getting substantial buffs. The tempest is sub-par for any realistic BS gang as it is, buffs to every other bs will make it that much more undesirable.

Can you comment on the effect of nerfed TE's on the tempest? If there is a competitive role for any ship, people will find and use it. There are PLENTY of reasons why people don't use the tempest (assuming they can use other racial bs), if there was a role then we would see it being used. 7 m/s buff won't change that, especially when every other bs is becoming more attractive.



The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.


Typhoon is a bigger ship moedl wise, look fatter, has higher base speed. Do not see why the tmpest cannto have same mass as typhoon.


The phoon should be faster in straight line but the tempest should have the lower sig and much lower mass.



That would be very ok for me. make one faster on max spee dbut less agile. Make the other have lower base speed but more agile and less mass.

That si what I mean when I complain the typhoon is far more powerful on ALL aspects.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1325 - 2013-05-21 13:34:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.

I think 'broken' isn't very likely. The bigger problem, I think, is that Typhoon and Tempest are fighting for a very similar space in the meta because of both being fast, flexible battleships. Maelstrom will continue to be more popular in very large fights because of it's alpha and larger ehp as well as being more popular for pve because of it's strong tank. I'm not sure thats a big problem though. The Tempest is going to be extremely versatile, and will actually play a lot differently than the Typhoon, so I think they can happily co-exist.


Another small point - seems like a lot of people focused on the relationship between Tornado and Tempest. I'm playing around right now with standard shield AC fits for both and get the following stats:

Tornado: 22k ehp, 1580m/sec, 780dps

Tempest: 57k ehp, 1251m/sec, 860dps

The Tempest of course crushes the Tornado in a 1v1 (I know this isn't the most important way to compare them), and on top of that it has 2 high slot utility + some room to play with mid slots. There's a lot of factors at work (including price), and I know speed is probably the most important attribute to look at it, but there's still a very strong case here for the Tempest. On top of the way it competes directly within this fitting style, the Tempest can do all kinds of other things like armor tanking, remote repping, tackling, etc.

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.



Why are tier 3 BCs not allowed to armour tank?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1326 - 2013-05-21 13:37:46 UTC
drake duka wrote:
requires cap boosters


a problem with all battleships
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1327 - 2013-05-21 13:40:09 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
drake duka wrote:
requires cap boosters


a problem with all battleships



He is not saying its a tempest only problem. He is just statign that higher final speed is FAR FAR less usable in battleships than in other classes. Also that same statment of yours, invalidades the claims of some peopel that projectiles are powerful because they do not use capacitor and therefore you do not need cap injector.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1328 - 2013-05-21 13:41:07 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.

I think 'broken' isn't very likely. The bigger problem, I think, is that Typhoon and Tempest are fighting for a very similar space in the meta because of both being fast, flexible battleships. Maelstrom will continue to be more popular in very large fights because of it's alpha and larger ehp as well as being more popular for pve because of it's strong tank. I'm not sure thats a big problem though. The Tempest is going to be extremely versatile, and will actually play a lot differently than the Typhoon, so I think they can happily co-exist.


Another small point - seems like a lot of people focused on the relationship between Tornado and Tempest. I'm playing around right now with standard shield AC fits for both and get the following stats:

Tornado: 22k ehp, 1580m/sec, 780dps

Tempest: 57k ehp, 1251m/sec, 860dps

The Tempest of course crushes the Tornado in a 1v1 (I know this isn't the most important way to compare them), and on top of that it has 2 high slot utility + some room to play with mid slots. There's a lot of factors at work (including price), and I know speed is probably the most important attribute to look at it, but there's still a very strong case here for the Tempest. On top of the way it competes directly within this fitting style, the Tempest can do all kinds of other things like armor tanking, remote repping, tackling, etc.

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.



Why are tier 3 BCs not allowed to armour tank?



They are, just woudl not be very effective.... They have massively overpowered DPS, therefore not maximizing it with shield tank woudl be a bit dumb.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1329 - 2013-05-21 13:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.

You do realise that a 7m/s speed buff is actually also a buff to agility. Just thought I would point that out as a lot of people seems to be complaining that it is insignificant where as actually it not only improves top speed but also agility in terms of the ships acceleration on top of that. Whether more agility is needed or not I am not sure, but just wanted to point out that combining the speed increase and agility modifier reduction, it is actually a fairly decent increase already.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1330 - 2013-05-21 13:56:40 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.

You do realise that a 7m/s speed buff is actually also a buff to agility. Just thought I would point that out as a lot of people seems to be complaining that it is insignificant where as actually it not only improves top speed but also agility in terms of the ships acceleration on top of that. Whether more agility is needed or not I am not sure, but just wanted to point out that combining the speed increase and agility modifier reduction, it is actually a fairly decent increase already.



No its not! Speed boost do not help align time neither acceleration!

Acceleration is dependent on mass ang AGILITY stats! Tempest takes more time to reach top speed than typhoon, and megatrhon. That whl the typhoon alignign faster and having quite faster top speed.

The AGILITY change is so minor that is almsot offensive


Tempest is COMPLETELY inferior to typhoon mobility wise.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1331 - 2013-05-21 14:00:05 UTC
Thank you for the response Rise. I expect this thread to get unstickied after Odyysey launch. Can you make a Tranquilty Feedback Thread after release so we can give you better input after flying pest in actual TQ fights?
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1332 - 2013-05-21 14:04:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.

You do realise that a 7m/s speed buff is actually also a buff to agility. Just thought I would point that out as a lot of people seems to be complaining that it is insignificant where as actually it not only improves top speed but also agility in terms of the ships acceleration on top of that. Whether more agility is needed or not I am not sure, but just wanted to point out that combining the speed increase and agility modifier reduction, it is actually a fairly decent increase already.



No its not! Speed boost do not help align time neither acceleration!

Acceleration is dependent on mass ang AGILITY stats! Tempest takes more time to reach top speed than typhoon, and megatrhon. That whl the typhoon alignign faster and having quite faster top speed.

The AGILITY change is so minor that is almsot offensive


Tempest is COMPLETELY inferior to typhoon mobility wise.

Two ships with equal mass and agility stats but different top speeds will both take the same time to reach 75% of their top speed (ie warp speed) as far as I was aware. That would mean increasing top speed also increases acceleration. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I've always understood it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1333 - 2013-05-21 14:05:28 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Thank you for the response Rise. I expect this thread to get unstickied after Odyysey launch. Can you make a Tranquilty Feedback Thread after release so we can give you better input after flying pest in actual TQ fights?




That will be an empty thread since almost no one would be insane to use tempest on TQ . And I say that seriously....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1334 - 2013-05-21 14:07:23 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Another small point - seems like a lot of people focused on the relationship between Tornado and Tempest. I'm playing around right now with standard shield AC fits for both and get the following stats:

Tornado: 22k ehp, 1580m/sec, 780dps

Tempest: 57k ehp, 1251m/sec, 860dps

The Tempest of course crushes the Tornado in a 1v1 (I know this isn't the most important way to compare them), and on top of that it has 2 high slot utility + some room to play with mid slots. There's a lot of factors at work (including price), and I know speed is probably the most important attribute to look at it, but there's still a very strong case here for the Tempest. On top of the way it competes directly within this fitting style, the Tempest can do all kinds of other things like armor tanking, remote repping, tackling, etc.

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.


Rather than winning, the Tempest would probably have to settle with the faster, more agile Tornado leaving a 1v1. Or in a gang/fleet setting, being pummelled by range-bonused Arti from platform that is much better at avoiding unfavourable conditions.

Regarding armour, yes, a Tempest can do that a lot better than a Tornado. But with only 6 low slots and several other non-Faction BSs getting additional low slots, it's suitability in armour fleets is dropping. A 5th mid is nice but the Phoon also offers that with 7 lows for a potentially sturdier tank.


CCP Rise wrote:

Anyway, the point is that we're watching it.


Thank you.

.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1335 - 2013-05-21 14:10:22 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
drake duka wrote:
AND requires cap boosters to run its mwd

a problem with all battleships

He is not saying its a tempest only problem. He is just statign that higher final speed is FAR FAR less usable in battleships than in other classes. Also that same statment of yours, invalidades the claims of some peopel that projectiles are powerful because they do not use capacitor and therefore you do not need cap injector.

With all due respect that statment of his, invalidates nothing. Projectiles are powerful because they do not use capacitor, so yes for only firing them you do not need to have a cap injector. But you do need cap boosters to run an mwd and this is a problem with all battleships, so his statement is in fact correct. P
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1336 - 2013-05-21 14:10:58 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.

You do realise that a 7m/s speed buff is actually also a buff to agility. Just thought I would point that out as a lot of people seems to be complaining that it is insignificant where as actually it not only improves top speed but also agility in terms of the ships acceleration on top of that. Whether more agility is needed or not I am not sure, but just wanted to point out that combining the speed increase and agility modifier reduction, it is actually a fairly decent increase already.



No its not! Speed boost do not help align time neither acceleration!

Acceleration is dependent on mass ang AGILITY stats! Tempest takes more time to reach top speed than typhoon, and megatrhon. That whl the typhoon alignign faster and having quite faster top speed.

The AGILITY change is so minor that is almsot offensive


Tempest is COMPLETELY inferior to typhoon mobility wise.

Two ships with equal mass and agility stats but different top speeds will both take the same time to reach 75% of their top speed (ie warp speed) as far as I was aware. That would mean increasing top speed also increases acceleration. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I've always understood it.



As you stated the time to warp is same no matter how you change speed. It keep the tempest as a very slow warper , that is unable to perform minmatar doctrine of hit and run!


Tempest is among the worst battleships to bring to a mobile gang because of that! The max straight line speed is almost IRRELEVANT except on 1v1. your capability of alignment to warp out and run back to gate are where mobility is relevant in battleships ( in 0.0 you can add get out of bubble as well)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1337 - 2013-05-21 14:13:57 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
drake duka wrote:
AND requires cap boosters to run its mwd

a problem with all battleships

He is not saying its a tempest only problem. He is just statign that higher final speed is FAR FAR less usable in battleships than in other classes. Also that same statment of yours, invalidades the claims of some peopel that projectiles are powerful because they do not use capacitor and therefore you do not need cap injector.

With all due respect that statment of his, invalidates nothing. Projectiles are powerful because they do not use capacitor, so yes for only firing them you do not need to have a cap injector. But you do need cap boosters to run an mwd and this is a problem with all battleships, so his statement is in fact correct. P


Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lugalzagezi666
#1338 - 2013-05-21 14:20:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized.

I take it you never flown any amarr battleship.Lol
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1339 - 2013-05-21 14:21:37 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:

@CCP Rise, how about giving the Tempest an extra Mid slot.
8/6/6, keep it's high mass, keep it's ****** capacitor, keep it's shite power grid and cpu, it's 2 damage bonuses on 6 that aren't worth 1, keep the fact that the raven and typhoon do substantially more dps outside neut range, and that the megathron and hyperion do more within neut range.

problem:

1 low will be used for fitting mod so it would be like you made it 8/6/5

-> i'd rather have it 7/6/6
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1340 - 2013-05-21 14:24:17 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
drake duka wrote:
AND requires cap boosters to run its mwd

a problem with all battleships

He is not saying its a tempest only problem. He is just statign that higher final speed is FAR FAR less usable in battleships than in other classes. Also that same statment of yours, invalidades the claims of some peopel that projectiles are powerful because they do not use capacitor and therefore you do not need cap injector.

With all due respect that statment of his, invalidates nothing. Projectiles are powerful because they do not use capacitor, so yes for only firing them you do not need to have a cap injector. But you do need cap boosters to run an mwd and this is a problem with all battleships, so his statement is in fact correct. P


Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized.

yes and yes, if you exclude amarr hulls of course.

And yes, Tempest do need some sort of a rework I think.