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widow ecm cloak tactics

Author
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-05-21 04:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Ciyrine wrote:
What ship with the instalock after uncloaking, faster movement when cloaked has the ability for large alpha damage? Like arrillery or long range missiles

A stealth bomber has all of those things but the faster while cloaked bit. A stealth bomber can move around and warp while cloaked, lock targets the moment it drops cloak, and do good damage to large targets. But they are rather useless against small targets and die very easily, especially to frigates and destroyers.

It sounds like you are looking for some kind of super powerful cloaky ship. Ships that can use the covert ops cloak have glaring weaknesses that keep them from dominating normal ships in combat. Even the black ops battleships are generally no match for a normal tech 1 battleship in a one on one fight.

A cloaky ship will generally be weaker than a non cloaky ship of the same size class. That is the price it pays for being able to hide and choose its fights.
Haulie Berry
#22 - 2013-05-21 12:57:35 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

Huh... then why isn't my Black-Ops ship able to do either? (I'm online and testing this right now... still have a targeting delay and can't reactivate cloak in less than 30 seconds).



I always thought the thing that was REALLY janky about blops is that they don't have a bonus to eliminate the cloak's resolution penalty.

"You can target right away after decloaking," the description says, adding, "not that it will do you any good..."
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#23 - 2013-05-21 13:45:53 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
What are some interesting tactics using the widow ecm cloak capabilities?

Like get close to target using cloak. Use ecm to make locking difficult. Use cloak when they get a lock. Is this viable and what else are people doing with this ship?


Nobody roams in a widow. What you do is roam in a small bait fleet and then use the widow to dump 50 buddies on the enemy when the fight starts.

One of the really fun things you can do with a B/O battlship is to move a large fleet around relatively quickly and often without being scouted. If you take the time to set your trap you can literally hide a 20-30 man bomber fleet inside a wormhole in an quiet system close to your target system and sneak right up to the enemy's doorstep with them only ever scouting something like a lone guy in a recon.

It can be really funny, for example to bomb fleets waiting on a Titan. I was in an alliance some time ago that lost a sizeable tornado fleet like that. Bombers appeared out of thin air and within a matter of 30 seconds there was nothing left of the fleet but 100 wrecks and a titan floating in a POS with nothing to bridge. The FC was upset about not having any intel about the bomber fleet but I think there was no intel to be had. It was top shelf stealth-fu. I'm willing to bet they hid in a wormhole while we formed up.

For cloaky camping we've also staged B/O battleships in convenient locations around a region so you can move your cloaky campers around quickly. There's nothing like being able to brigde whoever can get there on time clear across a region in about 2 min to take advantage of intel and kill bigger targets.

To my way of thinking, that's the way B.O. Battleships are normally used. Roaming in them is a pure waste of ISK.
Haulie Berry
#24 - 2013-05-21 14:34:43 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:

To my way of thinking, that's the way B.O. Battleships are normally used. Roaming in them is a pure waste of ISK.


Yep. They basically have a unique role as the only sub-titan ship that can bridge other ships. Not using that is kind of silly.

Also, they're expensive and squishy, so you may as well just name it "Primary Target" if you want to bring it into combat.
Muad 'dib
Digital Ghosts
#25 - 2013-05-21 15:54:18 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

Huh... then why isn't my Black-Ops ship able to do either? (I'm online and testing this right now... still have a targeting delay and can't reactivate cloak in less than 30 seconds).



I always thought the thing that was REALLY janky about blops is that they don't have a bonus to eliminate the cloak's resolution penalty.

"You can target right away after decloaking," the description says, adding, "not that it will do you any good..."


I always thought this

also the widow (with t2 cloak) after that res penalty locks slower than a scorp with no sebos... so.. ya pretty harsh tbh.

Most fun Black Ops ship+fit that i never tried: The peeka-boo arty redeemer :D

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Roxxo I'doCocaine
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-05-21 16:20:36 UTC
Tinu is absolutely correct.

I think many new players go toward Black Ops because it sounds sexy. They want to specialize as a "black ops" pilot because damn, who wouldn't want to say that? But as you get deeper into the content of the game you start to realize just how specialized B/O is ... and by specialized, I mean how little you actually get to use them, regardless of how much training you put into them.

Now days what I find sexy is destroying those massively expensive hulls using a plan, a bit of teamwork, and risking far cheaper hulls to pull it off. For example:

Park a 750-1000 DPS gank Vexor (cost: 30m) about 50-100km off a gate. Have a cloaked Falcon (150m) warp in cloaked and hold cloak 70km off the Vexor. Wait for something to attack the Vexor and tackle the hell out of it (webs, scram) and start to die horribly. Decloak the Falcon and jam the attacker. Apply the Vexor DPS. Profit.

Imagine if it was you in the Widow falling for this trap. You spend an eternity sneaking up on the Vexor. You decloak, lock, tackle, and apply your ECM. Falcon decloaks, and you and Falcon try to lock each other, but the Falcon locks faster and jams you out. Your lock and therefore ECM on the Thorax collapses, Thorax relocks you while you try to align and warp, but your align time sucks, and so the Thorax locks and scrams you before you can warp. He's bumping you while reacquiring lock which doesn't help. In 90 or so seconds, your Widow is going to die. Your buddy lands on grid or decloaks and tries to help, but the Falcon has plenty of ECM left to spread around and so your buddy gets jammed out too. You would probably need 2-3 more friends to win against this scenario.

Instead of a Falcon you could even use a Blackbird (30m) here waiting off-grid nearby. The only difference would be the bait ship would need a bit more EHP to stay alive while the BB warps to you at 100km from less than 1au away. If worried about the BB showing up on scan, throw a cloak and sensor booster on it. BB decloaks and while the "cannot lock" timer winds down, it's warping in. BB lands with its sebo and scan res script running (to help counter the locktime penalty from fitting the cloak) , locks, jams, profit.

If it's a fast frigate that burns up and tackles your Vexor he will either die to the Vexor's drones or, if he's tackle for a fleet, he'll be perma-jammed by the Falcon/BB and the Vexor will escape.

If everything goes right, my two-ship team worth 60-180m will take down about a billion worth of fancy Black Ops BS. If things go ****-up, we will likely only lose the 30m Vexor, but that's pretty unlikely as the ECM should provide GTFO ability in most circumstances. What kills us? A smart fleet of 4+, combat scan probes, and my team not watching directional scanner. That's really about it. And if both ships die? So what. Try again, 5 to 15 more times, for the same cost as a single Widow.

Everything in Eve PVP is about TANK and GANK. In the scenario above, your tank is range and ECM. Your gank is the Vexor DPS, and so you have a winning combo. Substitute any high-DPS T1 cruiser for the Vexor btw, just have a plan for killing frigates (small guns or light drones). But the real point here is that this combo is easier to train for, and will get more and better kills, and takes less pilot experience. You can literally train a monkey to decloak/warp in and jam. Many pilots dual-box this role using a second account.



Ayuren Aakiwa
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-05-22 02:47:58 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
What are some interesting tactics using the widow ecm cloak capabilities?

Like get close to target using cloak. Use ecm to make locking difficult. Use cloak when they get a lock. Is this viable and what else are people doing with this ship?



You certainly should not be flying a widow. How can you even be this clueless ???
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#28 - 2013-05-22 08:36:40 UTC
Ayuren Aakiwa wrote:
Ciyrine wrote:
What are some interesting tactics using the widow ecm cloak capabilities?

Like get close to target using cloak. Use ecm to make locking difficult. Use cloak when they get a lock. Is this viable and what else are people doing with this ship?



You certainly should not be flying a widow. How can you even be this clueless ???


Dude, chastising him for not knowing how certain mechanics work or not understanding the role of a certain ship doesn't help him.

At all.

It just make you sound like an arrogant bully with absolutely nothing to add aside from polluting the thread with an overdose of foul smelling epeen.

You missed a perfect opportunity to help him along with his learning curve, for example, by pointing out that when someone has you locked you can't use the cloak to hide and get away.

Or several other relevant things that would have been a lot more helpful to him than sharing your amazement at the fact that he wasn't born knowing these things.

sheesh
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-05-22 20:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciyrine
Muad 'dib wrote:

also the widow (with t2 cloak) after that res penalty locks slower than a scorp with no sebos... so.. ya pretty harsh tbh.

Most fun Black Ops ship+fit that i never tried: The peeka-boo arty redeemer :D


whats scorp with no sebos mean?

Do other ships have a bonus to eliminate the cloaks resolution penalty that allow them to decloak and lock faster than a blackops ship?

the arty cloak redeemer sounds like what I might be looking for as a fun concept. How would that be built and how good would it be?
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
Villore Accords
#30 - 2013-05-22 21:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Degnar Oskold
Ciyrine wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:

also the widow (with t2 cloak) after that res penalty locks slower than a scorp with no sebos... so.. ya pretty harsh tbh.

Most fun Black Ops ship+fit that i never tried: The peeka-boo arty redeemer :D


whats scorp with no sebos mean?

Do other ships have a bonus to eliminate the cloaks resolution penalty that allow them to decloak and lock faster than a blackops ship?

the arty cloak redeemer sounds like what I might be looking for as a fun concept. How would that be built and how good would it be?



What you are looking for does not exist.

Only 5 ship types get advantages to cloaking, and they all have huge disadvantages to compensate

1) Covert Ops
Advantages - Can use Covert Ops Cloaks, which allow you to warp cloaked and only have a 6-second lock delay (assumign you train up to Cloaking IV, it's a 5 second delay with Cloaking V) .
Disadvantage - No tank, very light DPS

2) Stealth Bombers
Advantages - No sensor lock delay! Can use Covert ops cloaks to warp while cloaked. Good DPS to Battleships
Disadvantage - Paper thin tank. Very weak DPS to anything smaller than a battleship. Easily beaten by a battleship's drones.

3) Black Ops Battleships
Advantages - Can bridge other sneaky ships. In theory, have no lock delay
Disadvantage - Can not use Covert ops cloaks, so everyone sees you going into and out of warp. Weak DPS compared to regular battleships. Very long lock time against anything smaller than a BS counteracts lack of lock delay. Very expensive, draws gankers from systems all around.

4) Cloaky Strategic Cruiser
Advantage - Can fit Covert Ops cloaks. Has plenty of mid and low slots for sensor boosting to acquire fast locks after the 5-6 second sensor delay is over. Can fit a proper tank with a cloak
Disadvantage. Below-average DPS for the cost. Draws gankers once uncloaked.

5) Force Recons
Advantage - Can fit Covert Ops cloaks. E-war bonuses. Relatively cheap cost compared to strategic cruisers. Most have spare slots for sensor boosters to get fast tackles.
Disadvantage - Low DPS, relatively weak tank for the cost.

======================

I'm personally having great fun in Force Recons, cloaking up and then harvesting plex farmers in FW. I just have to pick my fights carefully, my weak DPS and tank only letting me take on frigates and destroyers. Here's my best one so far.
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17793458

As I have yet to lose one of them, I am not giving away any intel on my fits or info on my tactics lest I be rumbled.

=====================

If money is not a problem for you, then I suggest you are looking for a faction-fitted Proteus or Loki for what you want to do. You should practice the dark art in a Force Recon, though.
Mr Twinkie
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-05-24 09:31:24 UTC
As a few people ahve told you..

DO NOT USE A BLOPS AS A SOLO PVP BOAT...

Don't do it... and seriously from the sound of it you need to find a pvp noob corp and fly rifters for a few months.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#32 - 2013-05-24 10:26:06 UTC
In theory, widow combines decent dps, decent tank, ecm and cloak for powerful cloaked attack ship, but consider the following:

Cons:
- it cannot warp cloaked (no cov-ops cloak), therefore people who are watching directional will see you while you warp around. If they see widow, they will get away or prepare ambush. Widow is expensive, so it will attract unwanted attention.
- while it has no decloaking delay, it is battleship => slow locking. Put two sensor boosters on it and it gets good, but it will gimp your fit (a bit)
- it has dps and tank below t1 battleship
- if you run solo, you must have ability to prevent foe from warping (or enough dps to volley him down, but don't count on it unless you attack something like t1 hauler or mining barge). So you must be within 20 km and have velocity to match runner or be within 10 km and use web + scram. It means putting big expensive ship into the thick of it (keep in mind it doesn't have all that much tank).
- widow is battleship, meaning its damage application against small targets (especially frigs) sucks; single t1 frig has change to lock you down, single t2 or faction frig will do so
- it is bloody expensive, you are looking at 1 bil+ for fitted widow

Pros:
- ECM does allow you to disable single foe and pound it to dust. In theory, if you catch lone battleship, sneak on it and point it, you will likely break it. If **** starts flying, you can cloak or warp away if you foe doesn't have lock. However, if help arrives, facing 2 ships will widow will be serious pain
- good dps against big stuff and flight of drones for extra flexibility. Also ability to field large neuts to disable frigs or soften foe - in theory, widow is good for solo combat if you have initiative and choose target well - your ideal targets are 0.0 ratters in expensive ships that are alone and without help at hand, but... these are bloody rare, many will flee once you enter the system (remember you are seen on local even if cloaked)
- bops are only subcap that can jump - you will need alt for it however, but it allows you to avoid gate camps and similar problems

Conclusion:
- widow can do stuff stealth bomber cannot - mainly break well tanked, well fitted battleship or battlecruiser. However, it has ton of problems (from cost to being big, slow and vulnerable to small things), so it is manly used as support ship in blops gangs.
- if you think you can do it, by all means go and try, EVE is all about doing what you want - imo, do not give up on something because someone says you not to do it, but do keep these warning in mind - blops are rarely used and even more rarely used solo for reason :) but that doesn't mean they cannot be used solo
- don't jump into blops as your first experience with stealth and pvp, you will die and die horribly at that. My advice would be to grab stealth bombers and play with them for a while - training widow will take forever anyway. If you find you like the style*, move up to recon ship and at that point you basically go either into stealth tech 3 or blops (or back to bomber :) )
*: keep in mind that solo hunting might not be what you expect - it will involve lot of waiting and very little action (or lot of dead bombers and a lot of action, depending on how you do it :) )
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