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widow ecm cloak tactics

Author
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-05-19 19:43:31 UTC
What are some interesting tactics using the widow ecm cloak capabilities?

Like get close to target using cloak. Use ecm to make locking difficult. Use cloak when they get a lock. Is this viable and what else are people doing with this ship?
Roxxo I'doCocaine
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-05-19 19:50:41 UTC
You cannot cloak if locked.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-19 21:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciyrine
ah, so cant use it to break lock thanks. In that case I look for the icon to show me that Im no longer jamming the opponent and if Im not I cloak. switching between jamming and cloaking to keep them from being able to fire on me. Would this work?

Ive also read comments about how players can decloak you. What are the methods of decloaking you?
Haulie Berry
#4 - 2013-05-19 22:11:21 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
ah, so cant use it to break lock thanks. In that case I look for the icon to show me that Im no longer jamming the opponent and if Im not I cloak. switching between jamming and cloaking to keep them from being able to fire on me. Would this work?

Ive also read comments about how players can decloak you. What are the methods of decloaking you?


Anything within 2km of you will decloak you/prevent you from cloaking.

That aside, this strategy would not be an effective one.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#5 - 2013-05-19 22:35:08 UTC
You can cloak once you break lock.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-05-20 03:19:56 UTC
Im starting to understand stuff about the cloak mechanics. The inability to cloak while your locked on, and inability to cloak when near an enemy makes me think its better suited for kitting.

Also the widow becomes faster when cloaked. So is there a possiblity here of using the widow as a kiting ship. Using the speed boost of cloaking to increase the distance as needed.

Another way to use the cloak to better effect is with long cycle weapons. In between firings cloak to prevent damage.

Perhaps the widow isnt the ship for the job of cloak battle tactics. Are there other ships that can lock weapons immediately after cloaking with a speed boost?

thoughts about the combat tactic?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#7 - 2013-05-20 03:59:52 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
Im starting to understand stuff about the cloak mechanics. The inability to cloak while your locked on, and inability to cloak when near an enemy makes me think its better suited for kitting.

Black-ops ships are technically battleships... so they aren't very well suited for kiting (which involves speed and the ability to keep range from whatever target/hostile you are dealing with).

Ciyrine wrote:
Also the widow becomes faster when cloaked. So is there a possiblity here of using the widow as a kiting ship. Using the speed boost of cloaking to increase the distance as needed.

Another way to use the cloak to better effect is with long cycle weapons. In between firings cloak to prevent damage.

All cloaking modules have a "cooldown" cycle of about 30 seconds after each deactivation... so firing and cloaking up right away isn't really an option.

Also... if a player is jammed by you, he/she will just try to get away. If you are cloaked you can't apply warp disruptors/scamblers or stasis webifiers to prevent this.

Ciyrine wrote:
Perhaps the widow isnt the ship for the job of cloak battle tactics. Are there other ships that can lock weapons immediately after cloaking with a speed boost?

The only ship that can target right after decloaking is the Stealth Bomber (any of them). However they are very "squishy" and not particularly fast (for a frigate).

As far as battle tactics and/or combat applications of cloaking-specialized ships... there are too many to count. It'd be easier for you to just Google "Bombing Runs" and "Shadow Fleets" and read up on any material that you find.


I think you need to focus less on "what is possible" and instead work on "what do I [generally] want to do" and work around that.
Haulie Berry
#8 - 2013-05-20 04:10:36 UTC
Instead of playing whack-a-mole with the questions you're actually asking, I'm going to do you a solid and ask/answer a much better question for you.

Q: Should I do solo PvP in a widow?
A: No.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#9 - 2013-05-20 06:49:12 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

All cloaking modules have a "cooldown" cycle of about 30 seconds after each deactivation... so firing and cloaking up right away isn't really an option.

The only ship that can target right after decloaking is the Stealth Bomber (any of them).


Both of these are wrong Ugh

Quote from widow's ingame description "No targeting delay after decloaking. Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds."

Solo blops is probably the most fun and exhilarating things in eve I've ever done... it also falls into the category of hull tanking. Very dumb.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-05-20 13:46:14 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Solo blops is probably the most fun and exhilarating things in eve I've ever done... it also falls into the category of hull tanking. Very dumb.


can you explain about this? You solo black oped ships which is what Id like to do. You said it was fun and exhilirating...perfect. But it falls in the category of hull tanking(why) and is very dumb(why)

Im starting to understand that even if I was able to use the cloak in battle to win a fight at a distance, kiting that there be no way for me to keep the player in the battle(they will just run away when losing).

So how do kiting ships normally score kills when their targets are far enough away to warp to safety as needed?
Cable Udan
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#11 - 2013-05-20 13:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cable Udan
Ciyrine,

Instead of trolling and shiptoasting as I normally do, I'm going to give you some constructive criticism: From your questions and statements about cloaking, kiting ships and warp disrupting them you don't seem to know the game mechanics very well.

You made a thread recently in Ships&Modules about a WH PvE Rattlesnake fit and again didn't really know much about fitting for range or using drones. You also stated that you had returned to the game after a two and a half year absence.

I think to save future heartache you would be best off staying in highsec and not doing any PvP for the time being. Do some missions and relearn (and in some cases learn) the game mechanics again. Two and a half years is a long time to be away from a game and you don't want to jump right into solo PvP in a BLops. You will lose it and will probably get very angry.

I would suggest for now you fit up a cheap cruiser and do some missions to relearn how to play the game.

Fly reckless o7

- Cable

EDIT: To answer your question on how how kiting ships score kills, they use a Warp Disruptor which allows you to prevent a ship from warping out to 28km with the Tech 2 variant overheated (and more with faction ones). Kiting ships stay within 24km and pick their prey off within this range.

You also get scram range kiters which use kite their enemies on the edge of Warp Scrambler range whilst using a web to keep them from getting too close. HTH.
Muad 'dib
Digital Ghosts
#12 - 2013-05-20 15:40:16 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:

Q: Should I do solo PvP in a widow?
A: No.


No?!

Dont take no for an answer, if you think it can work, make it work and be a trend setter !!!

"Do not do it because it is easy, but because it is hard" - some famous guy :P

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-05-20 17:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciyrine
All my questions are educational so i can do my best to set my course thru eve. I dont have the skills to fly the ships im asking about. I also dont have the skills for planet/moom mining. Or the isk to manufacture/trade. But i want to understand how they wprk so i can shoot for those things without meandering thru my skills. I want to plan my skills and remaps out a year or so.

From what im gathering widows, cloaks, ecm are currently not used in unusual ways. But to sneak up and grapple in pvp so ur buds can jump on a ship. Or for traveling.

So theres probably not any tricks a person can do. And i cant come up with anything without much more extensive experience which ill get eventually.

What other ships can do the immediate lock on after decloaking like the widow?
JAF Anders
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-05-20 18:20:32 UTC
Stealth Bomber.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Marsan
#15 - 2013-05-20 18:48:31 UTC
The Widow's problem is it is as slow, and as big of a target as most Battleships, but unlike a normal BS it has very little tank. In addition it's a very pricey ship which attracts people wanting kills, and most corp are willing to lose a lot of cheap ships to get a nice BO kill. Kitting in a Widow won't work as the average frigate is x4 faster than you without even trying hard. Once a frigate get on you you are likely dead. You can't hit the frigate. At best you can jam the frigate, but if it hugs you'll have trouble cloaking, and even jammed it can bump you to prevent you from warping.


Widows are fleet ships. You use them to bridge bombers behind lines. You shadow your fleet, decloak, jam the other side's logi, and bounce when the other fleet decides to target you. A Widow is a glass cannon it simply can't take any sort of a sustained attack.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Roxxo I'doCocaine
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-05-20 19:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Roxxo I'doCocaine
Ciyrine wrote:
All my questions are educational so i can do my best to set my course thru eve. I dont have the skills to fly the ships im asking about. I also dont have the skills for planet/moom mining. Or the isk to manufacture/trade. But i want to understand how they wprk so i can shoot for those things without meandering thru my skills. I want to plan my skills and remaps out a year or so.

From what im gathering widows, cloaks, ecm are currently not used in unusual ways. But to sneak up and grapple in pvp so ur buds can jump on a ship. Or for traveling.

So theres probably not any tricks a person can do. And i cant come up with anything without much more extensive experience which ill get eventually.

What other ships can do the immediate lock on after decloaking like the widow?


While the "no targeting delay when uncloaking" feature of the Widow sounds fantastic on paper, the scan resolution and therefore lock time on anything smaller than a BS is going to suck, simply by virtue of it being a BS hull. For example, 17+ seconds to lock a destroyer, 15+ seconds for a cruiser, 11+ seconds for a battlecruiser. You can add sensor boosters to fix this but then you're gimping your mid slots (ECM, shield tank). Compare this to a Falcon decloaking and targeting. It can lock a cruiser in around 5 seconds + ~6 seconds recalibration delay = 11 seconds total. That's 4 seconds faster than a Widow locking the same ship.

It sounds to me like maybe you're working the problem backwards. In other words, you're trying to find new and interesting uses of a very expensive hull instead of identifying what you're trying to accomplish and then finding the best ship(s) for your plan. There are far better ways to catch people sitting still in space than slow-boating to them in a cloaked Widow.

First, a quick overview of ECM hulls. The most practical ECM ships to use for small gang stuff that doesn't include any sort of cyno: Griffin (T1 frig, super cheap, throwaway for frig/dessie fights), Blackbird (T1 cruiser, fairly cheap, really effective in terms of bang for your ISK), and of course the Falcon (T2 cruiser, recon, expensive but can cov-ops cloak and ECM). If you plan on engaging battleships with your gang, and want to stay on field while taking some fire, Scorpion (T1 BS, good ECM). I did not forget the Kitsune, I just feel that it is unnecessarily expensive for a role that a Griffin can often fill, and yet not effective enough to not go with a Blackbird for more ECM. As for the Widow, I cannot think of a viable tactic that another ship listed above could not perform well enough at a fraction of the cost. There may be small/large gang doctrines focusing on T2 hulls and logi that would justify bringing the Widow but I am not familiar with them. But solo or "partner" pvp? No.

Edit: Ship costs are important, because you will be losing ships. Griffin ~1m, Blackbird ~20m, Stealth Bomber ~70m, Falcon ~150m, Scorpion ~100m, Widow ~1 billion. You should start thinking in terms of how many other alternative fitted hulls you can field for the cost of a single Widow.

Generally speaking, I'll tell you what I (and maybe most?) consider "best practices" when using ECM and cloaks. In a word, RANGE. Most ECM modules have great range, and you should be using it to stay alive while doing your job of shutting down enemy targeting abilities. It is possible to sit at 100km in a Blackbird and cause your enemy major problems. At 100km you have tons of time to gtfo if things go poorly. You can do the same trick with a Falcon from a slightly shorter (~70km) range, and cloak, and warp cloaked (if not targeted).

One of the best ways to use a cov-ops cloak to spring an ambush is to sneak up to your target and provide a warp-in for your buddies in fleet. In this situation, the cloaky ship doesn't really decloak and do much of anything else because by definition it will be close to the center of the fighting and as mentioned above, RANGE is your friend. Keep in mind that while ships that can fit a cov ops cloak (as well as the Widow) move "faster" while cloaked than ships using a regular cloak, they are still moving pretty slow. Expect to move around 400m/s while cloaked in a Stealth Bomber, 200m/s in a Falcon or Widow while cloaked. As you cannot run your prop mod while cloaked in any ship, you can expect any target using a prop mod and not moving mostly toward you to be "uncatchable" if you are cloaked. Basically you are looking for people who are sitting still for a decent amount of time, which makes them bad.

There's plenty more to say but I think this is a large enough wall of text for now.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-05-20 21:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciyrine
What ship with the instalock after uncloaking, faster movement when cloaked has the ability for large alpha damage? Like arrillery or long range missiles
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-05-20 21:31:28 UTC
That wall of text was awesome. What else did u want to say because it sounds like u stopped early. I got what u said and can absorb more
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-05-21 02:48:11 UTC
Ciyrine, by what you said till now I get the impression that you want to get into pvp, which is good. But still have the: bigger(more expensive) is better mentality, which is bad.

I would suggest starting out with small ships, like frigates and destroyers, to learn the ropes. If you use an empty clone for it, it also isn't that expensive when you lose them.
Try that for a bit, try out and lose a lot of small ships and find out what playstyle suits you best.

Because really, sitting in a ship is different from flying it and the real piloting skills you learn best in a frigate.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#20 - 2013-05-21 03:53:22 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

All cloaking modules have a "cooldown" cycle of about 30 seconds after each deactivation... so firing and cloaking up right away isn't really an option.

The only ship that can target right after decloaking is the Stealth Bomber (any of them).

Both of these are wrong Ugh

Quote from widow's ingame description "No targeting delay after decloaking. Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds."

Huh... then why isn't my Black-Ops ship able to do either? (I'm online and testing this right now... still have a targeting delay and can't reactivate cloak in less than 30 seconds).

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