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IS boxer Software and it's legality under the EULA

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Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#21 - 2013-05-20 18:14:17 UTC
OP - please do not confuse Law with Rules, there is nothing *Illegal* about botting, ISBoxer, Client manipulation, they are merely rules imposed by CCP to it's players.

ISBoxer is not Illegal, nor is it against the rules as has been explained by CCP many times.

I think a lot of the Ban ISBoxer threads are born of jealousy, people who can't afford to run multiple clients, or people who have been caught botting and been banned, so there's some sour grapes.


I don't use ISBoxer, mainly because it's rare that I mine, and when I do mine, I only run 4-5 miners so it's easy to keep up with them the old fashioned way running 3 pc's with the keyboards etc, and if it brings the price of ice or ore down then so what, miners make less money but things cost less, so eventually the mission runners / ratters will benefit since the price of minerals / ice components doesn't affect the bounties on rats, so the ammo they use will cost less to produce, therefore they will be sold for less isk on the market.


I wouldn't mind if this were the first anti-ISBoxer thread, I could tolerate it if it were the 5th, but there's been dozens over the last year, and everytime CCP have been questioned, they've not banned it.
Shaco LaRusko
Veritas Theory
#22 - 2013-05-20 18:29:22 UTC
Fixy FixIT wrote:
Hello all,

I just wanted to bring something to light and hear your views on the legality of this piece of software as regards the eve EULA.

I ask you all to Watch this tutorial from start to end http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RBRp9GEji4E

and then tell me that this DOESN'T break the rules set out in the EULA, specifically :

Quote : "6. CONDUCT
A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp"


Clearly, IS Boxer breaks the EULA rules right from the start as it allows you to login multiple accounts all at the same time without having to enter account name and password details etc..... (ahem - remember this "other stored rapid keystrokes
")
Never mind the fact that you can position windows so that modules on your ships like Guns and shields can all be activated on multiple accounts simultaneously and with just a single click.

I raised a petition with Customer Support and the best they could do was direct me to the forums,

**** Edited GM convo out of this post at advice of another member ****

So it would seem that CCP encourage people to break the rules.

I have to ask myself the question - I wonder how many people are using this software, and if it's large, organised corporations that are doing so.........

Imagine how a fleet of 20 miners under control of IS boxer could affect the local market mineral prices,
Imagine how a fleet of PvP ships could take down your T3 ship if you didn't have to alt tab all the while or even worse, you have two gangs of tacklers IS boxing to keep your ship jammed/scrammed etc while the rest of the fleet guns you down.

This software should be banned - It breaks the mechanics of the game and it's clearly cheating.

But that's my View.

What's yours ?


Ya but 20 miners is 20 accounts. You could do far better with 20 real players. The bigger question is does 1 account = 1 player.

Could that same 20 account isboxer take down a fleet of 20 equally armed players? Probably not.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2013-05-20 18:42:06 UTC
Just wasted fifteen minutes watching tutorials and don't really see how it could ever breach any rules .. seems to me that it is merely a virtualization environment that can be tailored to specific games, or did I miss something?

It would be a EULA violation if it allowed for semi-autonomous behaviour of the clients by auto-repping at preset threshholds for instance, but from what I could tell that kind of functionality is left out of the Eve specific config (was mentioned as being possible in WoW).

Only problem is that it moves the whole focus fire debate up to a whole other level Smile
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-05-20 20:18:04 UTC
The bigger question is!

Is using IsBoxer to Cloak all your ships at the same time so you can AFK in 0.0 against the Laws of the Internets?!

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#25 - 2013-05-20 23:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
The policy on programs like ISboxer has not changed. It was stated clearly way back in 2010:

GM Lelouch wrote:
Our stance on programs [...] is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated.


"Automation" is when input to the game (be it typing, clicking, activating modules, or whatever) is not the immediate result of human input. In other words, if Eve records a click on your afterburner but you weren't actually using your mouse at the time, that's automation. If a click of yours immediately causes a click in 10 clients, that is not automation.

CCP have upheld this policy and still do, as CCP Eterne confirms here. Discussing the rules is fine, but it does not change what they are or how they are currently enforced. I just wanted to give you guys a reminder of the status quo and the reasons behind it.

Disclaimer: ISD do not set, interpret, or enforce Eve policy. I am just parroting here. If you would like an official answer on a particular "gray area" situation, please file a petition.

So far as forum moderation, it was good to snip out the petition communication. I am also cleaning it up as per the forum rules below. Please keep posts respectful, constructive, and on topic.

Quote:
5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

12. Spamming is prohibited.

Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words “first”, “go back to [insert other game name]” and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post.

22. Post constructively.

Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.


Ed: Thread cleaned up and unlocked (and the rules were re-pasted correctly).

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#26 - 2013-05-20 23:23:37 UTC
"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

This is exactly what ISBoxer does, it facilitates the acquisition of items, currency, objects at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play, meaning a single person, playing ten accounts cannot operate as efficiently as a single person employing ISBoxer.

Not to worry though, CCP would never outlaw a primary income driver. they have become so dependent on alt accounts now, it's a wonder they even kick botters anymore.....Lol

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-05-20 23:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
This is exactly what ISBoxer does, it facilitates the acquisition of items, currency, objects at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play, meaning a single person, playing ten accounts cannot operate as efficiently as a single person employing ISBoxer.



This part IS true. The problem is CCP's standpoint refuses to acknowledge a bigger picture than the individual account in regards to "accelerated rates of gameplay".

1 player controlling 10 accounts with ISBoxer does not necessarily facilitate the acquisition of (stuff) at an accelerated rate when compared to 10 players controlling 10 accounts. So one to one the accounts are 'even'.

But, two players with the same number of accounts....ISBoxer will always win.

Essentially, if you are playing with more than (arbitrarily picked something most players can be capable of) 2 accounts, You must use ISBoxer to approach 'ordinary gameplay'.

Interesting conundrum, I suspect there's somebody looking at this matter of policy, but I wouldn't expect anything to be changed.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Jassmin Joy
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#28 - 2013-05-21 00:00:48 UTC
Shaco LaRusko wrote:
Fixy FixIT wrote:
"stuff"


Ya but 20 miners is 20 accounts. You could do far better with 20 real players. The bigger question is does 1 account = 1 player.

Could that same 20 account isboxer take down a fleet of 20 equally armed players? Probably not.


You mean could a fleet of 20 ships who all follow primes, fire at the same time and dont do stupid **** like jumping gates solo or burning off, beat a group of 20 players that have the ability to do what they want? sure.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-05-21 00:01:38 UTC
EvE is a large fleet/gang game. It's 100x better this way then solo. Something like IsBoxer should actually be built into the client, not looked down upon.

Then again some people prefer station spinning until they quit.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Obunagawe
#30 - 2013-05-21 00:13:52 UTC
Jassmin Joy wrote:
Shaco LaRusko wrote:
Fixy FixIT wrote:
"stuff"


Ya but 20 miners is 20 accounts. You could do far better with 20 real players. The bigger question is does 1 account = 1 player.

Could that same 20 account isboxer take down a fleet of 20 equally armed players? Probably not.


You mean could a fleet of 20 ships who all follow primes, fire at the same time and dont do stupid **** like jumping gates solo or burning off, beat a group of 20 players that have the ability to do what they want? sure.


Could a fleet of 20 players who can manually pilot their ships, control range, individually warp off when taking damage, use ammo types selectively for best range, and run combined-arms fleets w/ logi and ewar and so on defeat an isboxer fleet of all 1 shiptype? Certainly.

Good fleet > isboxer fleet > scrubs
GreenSeed
#31 - 2013-05-21 00:23:53 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
This is exactly what ISBoxer does, it facilitates the acquisition of items, currency, objects at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play, meaning a single person, playing ten accounts cannot operate as efficiently as a single person employing ISBoxer.



This part IS true. The problem is CCP's standpoint refuses to acknowledge a bigger picture than the individual account in regards to "accelerated rates of gameplay".


the real problem is you not understanding why they do so.


each account needs its own eula, because the eula protects the memory region the client runs in from tampering. any perceived unfairness that might be derived from the same person having signed multiple EULAS is secondary to protecting the memory region.

the problem with explaining the implications of "protecting the memory region" is that we live in a post blizz vs MDY world, and gamers have forgotten the horrors of online mmo cheating prior to that ruling.


and no, having the eula protect more than one client doesn't work.

and for the love of god stop saying "isboxer this, isboxer that" there's a ton of other boxing software out there... stop making free advertizing for one company. What?
Ellen Thrace
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-05-21 00:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellen Thrace
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
If a click of yours immediately causes a click in 10 clients, that is not automation.


With all due respect , that is clearly an automation, simply because its not humanly possible to do that.

“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-05-21 00:50:14 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:


the real problem is you not understanding why they do so.


Omission =/= ignorance. Saying "this is how it is therefore this is how it is" is backwards thinking, and not something I'd like to think CCP engages in. Surely some advance could be made, and might even be in CCP's best interest, or not. Notice how I'm not talking in absolutes.

Maybe you'd like to read the last part of my post, where I said "I suspect someone could be looking at the policy, but I would not expect anything to change".

For the record, I also made the conscious decision to use "ISBoxer" instead of "Multi-boxing software" simply for ease of conversation. Feel free to interchange the terms wherever your sensibilities are offended.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#34 - 2013-05-21 00:59:09 UTC
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
snip


Looking at the post our ISD representative quoted, one could use it to argue that ISBoxer should be banned because it uses techniques that have been identified as client modification. Perhaps a more recent dev blog would help you? Like one from CCP Stillman last month...

CCP Stillman wrote:

It should be clear to everybody that we have no interest in banning people who do not do anything bad in New Eden. How can you know for sure though? Unfortunately, I’m afraid you’re going to have to take my word on it, but I think it should be pretty obvious that we’re not gonna ban people that are not doing bad things. Here’s what the EULA considers bad in 6.A:

2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

As well as 9.C:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.

This extends to multiboxing software. Some of the multiboxing software out there is powerful enough to count as “client modification” if used for that purpose. Our stance on third-party software is that we do not endorse such software as we have no control over what it does. As such, we can’t say that multiboxing software isn’t against our EULA. But the same goes in this case, that unless we determine that people are doing things beyond “multiboxing”, we will not be taking any action. We only care about the instances where people are messing with our process for the purposes of cheating, and running multiple clients at the same time is not in violation of our EULA in and of itself unless it involves trial accounts.


So CCP will not say that ISBoxer does not violate the EULA, but they will not ban anyone for using it either. But as there is an Inner Space extension floating around that has an auto-pilot warp to zero hack, you just might want to test your copy of ISBoxer to make sure it doesn't contain the hack. I'm pretty sure that will get you banned.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#35 - 2013-05-21 00:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
FFs.

How can you people not see this? It's not illegal, and it shouldn't be. The guy in that tutorial pays for 7 accounts. He boasts about how much he makes ratting with Isoboxer, but if you want to tell what he really earns divide it by seven. That's right... he is earning exactly the same as you. If he wants 7 times the income at 7 times the cost, then who cares? He's paying CCP for it after all, and you could do the same with your 1 account by buying plex.

Multiboxers don't affect you in any way. Just get on with your sad stupid existences and ignore them like everyone else.

Ellen Thrace wrote:
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
If a click of yours immediately causes a click in 10 clients, that is not automation.


With all due respect , that is clearly an automation, simply because its not humanly possible to do that.


Actually... clicking isn't possible at all in Eve without external automating software. Those softwares are called drivers, and you can't operate a modern computer without them. Technically you can't operate Eve at all without the influence of external non-client "automating" (under your definition) software. I certainly don't see you typing out commands for your Eve in binary. The EULA is there to protect CCP, so that they can say what they will and wont allow. CCP has said they will allow multiboxers and that's that.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-05-21 01:02:26 UTC
Ellen Thrace wrote:
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
If a click of yours immediately causes a click in 10 clients, that is not automation.


With all due respect , that is clearly an automation, simply because its not humanly possible to do that.


You clearly don't know what automation vs a tool is.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#37 - 2013-05-21 01:08:02 UTC
Ellen Thrace wrote:
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
If a click of yours immediately causes a click in 10 clients, that is not automation.


With all due respect , that is clearly an automation, simply because its not humanly possible to do that.

As my disclaimer said, I am only parroting what is (and has been) the approach CCP GM team takes to ISBoxer. It is not my personal interpretation.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-05-21 01:14:30 UTC
Ellen Thrace wrote:
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
If a click of yours immediately causes a click in 10 clients, that is not automation.


With all due respect , that is clearly an automation, simply because its not humanly possible to do that.

http://i.imgur.com/egFbwL5.jpg Game set and match.

All the multiboxing software does is this exact same thing except with software rather than dowels, tape and nails, it is not automation, it is taking an input and sending it to multiple computers.


You know what just google "y adapter" and that is what the software does. or THIS

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#39 - 2013-05-21 01:24:23 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:

the problem with explaining the implications of "protecting the memory region" is that we live in a post blizz vs MDY world, and gamers have forgotten the horrors of online mmo cheating prior to that ruling.


For a minute there I thought you were going to start discussing ISXWarden.

GreenSeed wrote:

and for the love of god stop saying "isboxer this, isboxer that" there's a ton of other boxing software out there... stop making free advertizing for one company. What?


You mean this isn't an advertisement thread? But with everything going on with WoW, Lavish Software needs $15/90 days or $50/year from all the Eve players!

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Dub Step
Death To Everyone But Us
#40 - 2013-05-21 01:37:21 UTC
It's bullshit for them to claim this is somehow OK, but multiple accounts mean more money for CCP so don't expect them to care about it.