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I would buy a PLEX if I could sell it for 2 billion ISK. How about you?

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Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#101 - 2013-05-20 16:18:56 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

I'd buy a plex when they sold for 400mil.

It's only 1 hr of RW work to afford a quick ship when I'm strapped for isk.


Its funny how thats post #100 Murk, you are one of the few people that actually just answered the question! A good sign I think Big smile
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#102 - 2013-05-20 16:31:32 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
As for the "premium" ships, yeah the "kick scream and whine" crowd spoke right up. But really CCP has been catering to them for far too long anyway. The game has places to go and things to do, can't hold back for a few poor sports.


The "kick scream and whine" crowd were only all the PvPers and industrialists who cared enough to complain that the game was going to be ruined. They were the people who unsubbed and stopped playing. CCP listened to them because the money supply started disappearing. The "few poor sports" are the ones that stopped funding CCP to the point that CCP had to let 20% of their staff go.

I'm pretty sure you're actually in the minority here, being an EVE player who thinks that "premium ships" would in any way be a good idea or add something interesting to the game. If you want World of Tanks style gameplay, go play World of Tanks.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2013-05-20 17:27:08 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I guess it might cause the destruction of some game wealth, but Eve is partly about loss and overcoming difficulties. And honestly if doing so would sell more PLEX and not change the current dynamic of "sandbox gameplay" at all it just seems like there would be more money coming in to the Eve side of CCP which is good for the game. It will get more funding as far as manpower for the next xpac.



I would hate to see trit hit 7,000 isk per unit to be honest.

PLEX and isk is not the only relationship isk has in this game.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#104 - 2013-05-20 17:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Mara Rinn wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
As for the "premium" ships, yeah the "kick scream and whine" crowd spoke right up. But really CCP has been catering to them for far too long anyway. The game has places to go and things to do, can't hold back for a few poor sports.


The "kick scream and whine" crowd were only all the PvPers and industrialists who cared enough to complain that the game was going to be ruined. They were the people who unsubbed and stopped playing. CCP listened to them because the money supply started disappearing. The "few poor sports" are the ones that stopped funding CCP to the point that CCP had to let 20% of their staff go.

I'm pretty sure you're actually in the minority here, being an EVE player who thinks that "premium ships" would in any way be a good idea or add something interesting to the game. If you want World of Tanks style gameplay, go play World of Tanks.


There was a lot more behind that movement than just rumors of "premium" ships. Dust is going to be funded on money for gear, so there is going to be some of this type of system affecting Eve anyway. It will be very interesting to watch that process unfold.

At any rate selling more PLEX and having more going on in Eve would be a good thing. Its a shame that players with little real time are relegated to being second class citizens because they don't have the time to interact with and develop their accounts as fully as more engaged players.

Increasing the value of PLEX to levels that are closer to what a standard 2 account fully engaged box can produce would put more players on similar levels and create more conflict at those levels. This doesn't take anything away from anyone except perhaps the illusion that the Eve economy is totally free from regulation.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2013-05-20 17:38:58 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Andski wrote:
Keep in mind that the OP was previously suggesting that CCP make PLEX scams a bannable offense because in his opinion, they should be treated differently from other items. Also something about it driving away "the kids" or some nonsense

Now he's complaining that the price of PLEX is too low for him to consider buying and he thinks CCP should buy up thousands of units of PLEX and floor it at 2b

These two ideas are a bit, well, conflicting


My point there, and here is that when a paying customer buys an item they have some expectation of that item. If the item fails to meet those expectations then people generally don't buy more. I think PLEX should have a subsidized "floor" under it so that it is a consistently good product.

And the result of that last thread wasn't that PLEX scams should be banned; rather that PLEX should be a riskier but more valuable item than Time Code. Time Code would be the default way for people to buy in game currency and it would have protections. In this way only older more savvy players would be dealing in PLEX and they would get a premium for doing so. Players brand new to the game or players who receive Time code as a gift would be protected in that transaction.

I was very happy with that thread, and I still think its a great idea.



Well, if you go to CCP's website, and go through the plex purchasing process... you get the item you paid for. Your choice to use it for isk generation or for game time.

But you still paid real money for an ingame item. That ingame item's monetary value has ZERO to do with the real money transaction from the website.

Otherwise, we WOULD see isk purchasing bundles on their website.

The expectation you mention, is in fact, met.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#106 - 2013-05-20 17:42:35 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I guess it might cause the destruction of some game wealth, but Eve is partly about loss and overcoming difficulties. And honestly if doing so would sell more PLEX and not change the current dynamic of "sandbox gameplay" at all it just seems like there would be more money coming in to the Eve side of CCP which is good for the game. It will get more funding as far as manpower for the next xpac.



I would hate to see trit hit 7,000 isk per unit to be honest.

PLEX and isk is not the only relationship isk has in this game.


Wont happen. Heck for all we know CCP is already buying back PLEX to keep the price at a certain level. People don't notice because it blends right into the game. There's plenty of room for the Eve economy to accelerate and always new and interesting stuff to buy and get blown up or collect or whatever.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-05-20 17:51:38 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Andski wrote:

You don't have an answer, because you completely made that **** up and you're dodging the question to avoid eating crow, realizing that it makes absolutely no sense. It's like saying that if gas prices go from $3/gallon to $12/gallon overnight, people would keep buying gas guzzling SUVs.

Also, yes, CCP has complete and total control over the economy. Completely correct. However, the extent to which they exercise their control is a completely different question. It's simple: they don't, with very few exceptions like removing ISK from botters or taking PLEX from the hangars of permabanned players and putting them on the market (which has the opposite effect of spawning 1 trillion ISK to inflate PLEX prices to 2 billion per unit, if you bother to rub a couple of brain cells together)

You just missed one of the earlier posts and I didn't catch it. The ISK price for PLEX remains exactly the same, CCP only subsidizes the value by adding redeemable goods packages to the PLEX up front.

So I buy a PLEX, I get the PLEX plus whatever redeemable Items that I choose from the options available. I still put the PLEX on the market to get actual ISK for it.

Destiny pointed out that this is a great deal and more people will probably buy PLEX which is part of the goal. But with more PLEX hitting the in game market the price will fall. The solution to that is for CCP to have buy bots that purchase PLEX directly from the market until the price gets where it needs to be.

This does inject some ISK into the markets that will have to sink out. But not as much as you might think because the majority of ISK being used to buy the PLEX will still be player generated. And the accelerated economy will also accelerate existing sinks.

This is just envelope math, but the idea is sound. Its very similar to the way central banks accelerate the economy right now, and CCP has even more tools to limit inflation on the back end.



I get a free trit with every noobship I spawn when I dock in a station.

Doesn't mean I want to lose my ships to get that free trit instead of reprocessing a looted wreck.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#108 - 2013-05-20 17:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Murk Paradox wrote:

Well, if you go to CCP's website, and go through the plex purchasing process... you get the item you paid for. Your choice to use it for isk generation or for game time.

But you still paid real money for an ingame item. That ingame item's monetary value has ZERO to do with the real money transaction from the website.

Otherwise, we WOULD see isk purchasing bundles on their website.

The expectation you mention, is in fact, met.


The thread Andy was referencing started because a kid came to help chat and explained how his parents were going to be very angry because he traded his gifted PLEX for nothing in a station trade scam. I'm all for scams, but neither this kid nor his parents knew how to handle a PLEX in game. I think people like that should have a safe option to use real money to buy ISK just so they buy more again!

The best solution that came out of that thread was to make timecode a less effective way to get ISK, but have protections on it so that the purchaser was guaranteed to at least get some cool stuff for their money. And have ISK be available as more effective way to get ISK but also one that included risk. It just seemed like an interesting way to protect brand new players and encourage them to send money to CCP while still offering all the risks and possibilities of PLEX to more seasoned gamers.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2013-05-20 17:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

I'd buy a plex when they sold for 400mil.

It's only 1 hr of RW work to afford a quick ship when I'm strapped for isk.


Its funny how thats post #100 Murk, you are one of the few people that actually just answered the question! A good sign I think Big smile



Yea since I stopped drinking and partying, I find I spend a lot more money on games (for my kids too through playstion store) and still doesn't equate to what I'd spend at a bar in one night.

When I lost a legion a month ago, I redeemed 2 plexes and bought another. Wasn't going to be bothered with collecting all my pi and hit the ice for a couple of hours to do it.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-05-20 17:59:30 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I guess it might cause the destruction of some game wealth, but Eve is partly about loss and overcoming difficulties. And honestly if doing so would sell more PLEX and not change the current dynamic of "sandbox gameplay" at all it just seems like there would be more money coming in to the Eve side of CCP which is good for the game. It will get more funding as far as manpower for the next xpac.



I would hate to see trit hit 7,000 isk per unit to be honest.

PLEX and isk is not the only relationship isk has in this game.


Wont happen. Heck for all we know CCP is already buying back PLEX to keep the price at a certain level. People don't notice because it blends right into the game. There's plenty of room for the Eve economy to accelerate and always new and interesting stuff to buy and get blown up or collect or whatever.



The people selling the plex that gets bought from the market know though.

If I decided to buy a bundle of 300 plex and seed the market and saw "CCP (insertname) has purchased...."

I'd make a post on these forums in a heartbeat.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2013-05-20 18:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Well, if you go to CCP's website, and go through the plex purchasing process... you get the item you paid for. Your choice to use it for isk generation or for game time.

But you still paid real money for an ingame item. That ingame item's monetary value has ZERO to do with the real money transaction from the website.

Otherwise, we WOULD see isk purchasing bundles on their website.

The expectation you mention, is in fact, met.


The thread Andy was referencing started because a kid came to help chat and explained how his parents were going to be very angry because he traded his gifted PLEX for nothing in a station trade scam. I'm all for scams, but neither this kid nor his parents knew how to handle a PLEX in game. I think people like that should have a safe option to use real money to buy ISK just so they buy more again!

The best solution that came out of that thread was to make timecode a less effective way to get ISK, but have protections on it so that the purchaser was guaranteed to at least get some cool stuff for their money. And have ISK be available as more effective way to get ISK but also one that included risk. It just seemed like an interesting way to protect brand new players and encourage them to send money to CCP while still offering all the risks and possibilities of PLEX to more seasoned gamers.



You know, strangely enough, my kids once hit the buttons on their mother's laptop and spent $60 worth of facebook credits.

Because it was an accident, we were able to talk to their CS and get it resolved (we never spent any of it).

However!, your comment has a kid, who through his parents, bought isk for a specific reason, and he used that isk for a different reason, and got burned for it.

The old adage "you can't cheat an honest man" still holds true.

And to be honest, his parents should have checked to see what they were buying. My kids ask for bundles from ps store all the time for their little big world and disney adventure games.

If I just handed them a credit card without handling it myself, and someone convinced them over ps3 to givbe them my login info... that's my fault isn't it if my stuff I paid for got stolen.

If those parents do NOT care, that they feel justified in spending that money regardless of what happened to it, then it's on the kid for wasting his "allowance". Welcome to Eve, don't do it again.

BUT, that does not have any effect on CCP's business model for plex/gtc and why it should be changed unfortunately.

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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#112 - 2013-05-20 18:06:36 UTC
If you think people currently funding their accounts with PLEX wouldn't drop like a rock at 2B ISK vs 520M-ish ISK a month, I really don't think we can agree on anything. I know if I'm buying beer for $5.20 and the price suddenly goes to $20, I'd probably start brewing my own.

Seeing how CCP doesn't seem to have a problem selling PLEX when they're going for 520M, I doubt they're going to artificially inflate the price to 2B any time soon.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#113 - 2013-05-20 19:01:47 UTC
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
If you think people currently funding their accounts with PLEX wouldn't drop like a rock at 2B ISK vs 520M-ish ISK a month, I really don't think we can agree on anything. I know if I'm buying beer for $5.20 and the price suddenly goes to $20, I'd probably start brewing my own.

Seeing how CCP doesn't seem to have a problem selling PLEX when they're going for 520M, I doubt they're going to artificially inflate the price to 2B any time soon.


The thread is about CCP subsidizing the value of PLEX so that external buyers get more for their money. This most likely lower the cost of PLEX overall as it would remove the need to keep the ingame price for PLEX high enough so that people would buy it.

The drawbacks are that players have to acknowledge that CCP is medling with the economy in order to do this. But the way I see it they already meddle in the economy, so really nothing changes.



TL/DR Cost of PLEX will go down for people PLEXing their accounts if CCP includes some goods with the purchase of a PLEX.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2013-05-20 19:05:48 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
If you think people currently funding their accounts with PLEX wouldn't drop like a rock at 2B ISK vs 520M-ish ISK a month, I really don't think we can agree on anything. I know if I'm buying beer for $5.20 and the price suddenly goes to $20, I'd probably start brewing my own.

Seeing how CCP doesn't seem to have a problem selling PLEX when they're going for 520M, I doubt they're going to artificially inflate the price to 2B any time soon.


The thread is about CCP subsidizing the value of PLEX so that external buyers get more for their money. This most likely lower the cost of PLEX overall as it would remove the need to keep the ingame price for PLEX high enough so that people would buy it.

The drawbacks are that players have to acknowledge that CCP is medling with the economy in order to do this. But the way I see it they already meddle in the economy, so really nothing changes.



TL/DR Cost of PLEX will go down for people PLEXing their accounts if CCP includes some goods with the purchase of a PLEX.



Cost in regards to isk as the method of payment? Yes, the value of the isk will go down with the prices of plex.

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-05-20 19:09:36 UTC
Shadow Lord77 wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
I can see your point , but however look at it from CCP's point of view. How many players would buy plex to keep their accounts going if they cost 2 billion?

I think 500-600 million is a decent middle ground

^

I think PLEX is actually undervalued. The real reason why it's so low is that everytime it peaks above 600M CCPs economic designers begin to dump all their confiscated/bought-in-game PLEX on the markets.
CCP doesn't put PLEX on the market, and they don't adjust its price.

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Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#116 - 2013-05-20 19:13:57 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
....

BUT, that does not have any effect on CCP's business model for plex/gtc and why it should be changed unfortunately.


Yeah despite all of my very well constructed arguments they never have! Big smile That doesn't mean its not a good idea. It just means that they havn't gotten to the PLEX part of the inbox yet!

His parents bought him the credits/tokens/coins/PLEX thinking that's how the game is played and that it would be a fun gift. None of them understood that the entire Eve trade system has room for scams, that's just the way its built.

I don't think that a player should be forced to use an in-game market that is mechanically designed to allow shell games and dishonest dealings in order to redeem game tokens/credits/PLEX that they paid for. Give them some goods or ISK upfront and let people scam that a bit at a time away from them. $20 is too much to lose that way.

And I don't want the Eve markets and trade options to be dumbed down, they are perfect right now.

So, when someone buys game credits/tokens/plex they should have another option to redeem that. But if CCP were heavily subsidizing PLEX as this thread suggests it would not be such a big deal to lose the PLEX itself anyway. So you fix two things with one change.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#117 - 2013-05-20 19:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Murk Paradox wrote:

The people selling the plex that gets bought from the market know though.

If I decided to buy a bundle of 300 plex and seed the market and saw "CCP (insertname) has purchased...."

I'd make a post on these forums in a heartbeat.


And what if they just used the random name generator to pick a new name for the bot with every purchase?

CCP has complete and total control of the Eve economy. They can do what they need to when the need to:

Too much ISK around, well turn down the rat bounties by .3% intermittently over the course of a few months. No one would notice and tons of ISK would disappear.
Ships getting too expensive? Just alter the drop drop rates for their components, walla ship prices go down.
PLEX prices too high in ISK terms? Offer a PLEX bundle for a discount.
Miners bringing in too many minerals? Stop partial cycles from entering the ore hold if a pilot warps off without shutting down the laser.
A specific ship looking too good for PvP? lower its stats and raise the mineral cost to make it.

This list goes on without end, CCP can and does control the Eve economy. They have complete and total authority to do so under the EULA. That doesn't change the game at all.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2013-05-20 19:38:30 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
....

BUT, that does not have any effect on CCP's business model for plex/gtc and why it should be changed unfortunately.


Yeah despite all of my very well constructed arguments they never have! Big smile That doesn't mean its not a good idea. It just means that they havn't gotten to the PLEX part of the inbox yet!

His parents bought him the credits/tokens/coins/PLEX thinking that's how the game is played and that it would be a fun gift. None of them understood that the entire Eve trade system has room for scams, that's just the way its built.

I don't think that a player should be forced to use an in-game market that is mechanically designed to allow shell games and dishonest dealings in order to redeem game tokens/credits/PLEX that they paid for. Give them some goods or ISK upfront and let people scam that a bit at a time away from them. $20 is too much to lose that way.

And I don't want the Eve markets and trade options to be dumbed down, they are perfect right now.

So, when someone buys game credits/tokens/plex they should have another option to redeem that. But if CCP were heavily subsidizing PLEX as this thread suggests it would not be such a big deal to lose the PLEX itself anyway. So you fix two things with one change.



If it was for gametime, you can opt to buy a block of time directly through CCP's website and also opt to not have recurring charges on the credit card.

You do not have to use plex ingame in order to get more playtime.

Beyond that, in regards to scams... that is for a different thread, and forum.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2013-05-20 19:40:05 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

The people selling the plex that gets bought from the market know though.

If I decided to buy a bundle of 300 plex and seed the market and saw "CCP (insertname) has purchased...."

I'd make a post on these forums in a heartbeat.


And what if they just used the random name generator to pick a new name for the bot with every purchase?

CCP has complete and total control of the Eve economy. They can do what they need to when the need to:

Too much ISK around, well turn down the rat bounties by .3% intermittently over the course of a few months. No one would notice and tons of ISK would disappear.
Ships getting too expensive? Just alter the drop drop rates for their components, walla ship prices go down.
PLEX prices too high in ISK terms? Offer a PLEX bundle for a discount.
Miners bringing in too many minerals? Stop partial cycles from entering the ore hold if a pilot warps off without shutting down the laser.
A specific ship looking too good for PvP? lower its stats and raise the mineral cost to make it.

This list goes on without end, CCP can and does control the Eve economy. They have complete and total authority to do so under the EULA. That doesn't change the game at all.



Doesn't mean they do.

Hell, they could turn off the server if they wanted. Doesn't mean they do just because they can.

There's a certain level of trust involved when you give someone your money to play with their toys.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#120 - 2013-05-20 20:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
At any rate selling more PLEX and having more going on in Eve would be a good thing. Its a shame that players with little real time are relegated to being second class citizens because they don't have the time to interact with and develop their accounts as fully as more engaged players.


Am I a second class citizen just because I don't play the way someone else plays? How is CCP relegating people like you or me to "second class" citizen status?

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Increasing the value of PLEX to levels that are closer to what a standard 2 account fully engaged box can produce would put more players on similar levels and create more conflict at those levels. This doesn't take anything away from anyone except perhaps the illusion that the Eve economy is totally free from regulation.


With 1 PLEX to your name, you can easily double its value in a month with about 20 minutes a day of playing. I have managed to do this in the past, and I am looking forward to doing the same when I return from leave. That same 20 minutes a day can produce remarkable increases in wealth as your pool of liquid capital becomes larger. As you trade more and more items, that 20 minutes a day returns greater dividends. Check out the Making ISK guide for more ideas on how to make ISK.

How would CCP go about increasing the value of PLEX? At present a single PLEX is worth as much as an account can raise without really trying each month: a few hours of ice harvesting a day, a few hours of mining, or an hour or two of mission running, or half an hour playing the market and engaging in speculative hauling. PLEX is worth this much for a reason: that reason is that the people buying the PLEX are doing the least amount of work possible to keep funding their accounts through PLEX.

For PLEX to be worth 2B ISK, that 30 hours of work a month would have to be worth 2B ISK. That would mean that the ships that you wish to buy with that 2B ISK will all cost about six times as much as they do now (because the miners want to buy that PLEX with around 30 hours of work a month). Which means that you're not really ahead.

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