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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar First post First post
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The Djego

Hellequin Inc.

Likes received: 266

#1261 - 2013-05-19 16:39:18 UTC | Edited by: The Djego

Gargantoi wrote:

problem with raven is u got 1k dps on papper but to apply it is very bad so u end up with crap dps fly the ship discover the issue then post your stupid opinion ..hit frigates with cm for what 30-40 dps ?

You can 2 volley most frigs after applying 2 painters(or one volley if you also fit a web), however I and many others believe that this is a big waste of time and dps so we use drones against them. After painting and fitting Rigurs or Flare rigs, damage application against cruisers and bigger hulls is very good. If anything, the long cycle times of the TP hold the ship back.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Zarnak Wulf

Task Force 641

Empyrean Edict

Likes received: 1,855

#1262 - 2013-05-19 17:58:09 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Lol tank most battleship dps? You realize almsot ANY battleship will tank MORE while dealing same DPS? Check the Hyperion and see how your fancy active armor tempest is useful... or even the megatron.

Tempest is a FAIL ship that is used only because looks cool.

Active tank or buffer tank? Because most BS have a very weak capacitor to run a LAAR and a LAR2 plus guns. The Tempest can pull it off with some cap mods that are outside the norm. Also - HG Halos plus damage implants. 180 sig radius with Skirmish boosts.... that will mitigate a hell of a lot of incoming damage. Like I said - lowsec toy.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that the ship in most scenarios is inferior. I'll probably use it just b/c people will underestimate it and engage.

Nikuno

Atomic Heroes

Likes received: 217

#1263 - 2013-05-19 18:13:22 UTC

Lloyd Roses wrote:

Those 4 tech-1 battleshipthreads...

Amarr: Our ships are bad because we can't run level 4s perfectly with those cap issues!
Gallente: Our ships are bad for level 4s!
Caldari: Raven does to little damage to L4 rats!
Minmatarr: Need a third battleship!

It sounds like a lot of winmatar whining comes from mostly pvp-people posting here...

Untrue.

Amarr : We didn't want a drone boat (for pvp or pve)
Gallente: Sentry drones are a stupid idea for a sniping fleet (for pvp).
Caldari: Why is the Typhoon better than the Raven at the Raven's supposed strong point (for pvp).
Minmatar: Tempest is filling a non-existent niche making it next to useless.

It's so annoying when such ridiculous nonsense as yours gets splurged into ideas threads, it clouds the real discussions about what is right, what is wrong, and where a balance can be achieved.

Rastor Galondil

Tribal Liberation Force

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2

#1264 - 2013-05-19 19:21:14 UTC

" Our redesign here aims to honor the spirit of the typhoon while also providing a more focused base that will hopefully lead to more actual application.

It will lose the split weapon bonus (as all tech 1 ships have as part of the tiericide initiative) and will replace the projectile bonus with a missile explosion velocity bonus. Along with the addition of 6th launcher, the Typhoon will now be a very formidable damage dealer. Utility has always been one of the Typhoon's strong points, and it will be sacrificing some of this utility to take on such a strong attack role – this is a point for which we are paying close attention to your feedback." -CCP

What crack are you smoking? You did the complete opposite of honoring the spirit of the typhoon and its utility? C'mon....Disappointed...

Hagika

Standard Corp 123

Likes received: 292

#1265 - 2013-05-19 21:52:43 UTC | Edited by: Hagika

The Djego wrote:

Gargantoi wrote:

So use a bunch of mids and lose your rig slots to apply damage to frigs, in which is will still not one shot and you will absolutely have crap for tank, or fly a turret ship, with a web and maintain a huge tank, 1 shot the frig with no issue.

You do realize they did nerf the explosion velocity for cruise right? To go along with the damage buff.

You are not one shotting a frig and if you built a raven to kill a frig, your tank will be so horrible a battle cruiser will come on by and B!tchslap you.

Meanwhile, the phoon with its battlecruiser sig rad, plus bonus with missiles will nearly match a raven tank after you build it with tank rigs and mid slots set for tanking.

Hmm must be nice.

Hagika

Standard Corp 123

Likes received: 292

#1266 - 2013-05-19 21:53:55 UTC

Rastor Galondil wrote:

The phoon will do everything better than the raven aside from range.

Gargantoi

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 20

#1267 - 2013-05-19 22:09:13 UTC

After 64 boring pages of us trying to put some sence into ccp and them giving a **** i say we give up is like trying to tell a oil company to lower the prices on fuel u'r talking with yourself when ccp rise went on the gallente page he hit it 50-50 good and bad ...when he went to amarr ...he hit it 50-50 again good and bad when it went to caldari he ****** up things there ...and then came here and ****** them more up As a guy said above ...WTF U SMOKING bro ..i dont smoke but **** id try some of that ****

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#1268 - 2013-05-19 22:15:51 UTC

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Kagura Nikon wrote:

megathron signature is almost same as tempest now. So you r halo argument dost not sustain much advantage. The extra low slots the competitors of the tempest have increase their tanking efficiency more than what they loose by capacitor.

In fact I never EVER had issues with guns using too much of my capacitor in ANYTHING battleship sized that was not using Tachyons and not neutralized.

The smaller capacitor of the tempest is already smaller enough to compensate almost ALL the capacitro that a ship woudl use in a short fight with its guns ( again, tachyons not included)

Again the megam typohoon and hyperion can do ANYTHIGN the tempest do, but better.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#1269 - 2013-05-19 22:17:55 UTC

Nikuno wrote:

Lloyd Roses wrote:

Fact is Rise shoudl nto have made what he made with dominix, geddon etc. He shoudl ahve made thos echanges on the NAVY versions and kept the normal ones untouched. AND Changed the tempest, that was required, completely.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Hagika

Standard Corp 123

Likes received: 292

#1270 - 2013-05-20 04:34:16 UTC

Gargantoi wrote:

Very true, I do not understand why they ask for feedback when they wont respond or listen even when people give it.

Would be just easier for them to say, these are the changes, we dont care what you think and deal with it.

Though I believe they ask the way they do to try and keep from a total blow up.

Gargantoi

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 20

#1271 - 2013-05-20 09:19:46 UTC

Hagika wrote:

Gargantoi wrote:

they cant do that i think tbfh GM NOVA should read this **** and slap the **** out of the whole ccp division he is the only GM i knew who would play this game and get involved ..but that was back in 2008-2009 but still ccp is turning it into a kids blob fest the only reason ccp isnt boosting minmatar is cuz u can still solo with them and maybe not die ..but fozzie made sure that wont happen anymore with the tracking enhanter nerf and now ccp rise is making sure it wont happen bs wise also

Rebecha Pucontis

Doomheim

Likes received: 602

#1272 - 2013-05-20 10:41:42 UTC

Hagika wrote:

Gargantoi wrote:

To be fair if they balanced the game based solely based upon people opinions on the forum then we would end up with a pretty bad game. For a start there are many differing opinions just in this thread alone. It is much wiser to wait for statistical data as I reckon they will do after the release of odyssey and then balance the game based upon facts.

And to be fair to Rise, he has made a lot of changes based upon feedback already. The Tempest has already had one complete change to another direction already since it was first announced. And the Gallente line up was completely reversed also.

Malcanis

Vanishing Point.

The Initiative.

Likes received: 18,382

#1273 - 2013-05-20 10:52:43 UTC

Hagika wrote:

Gargantoi wrote:

CCP Rise definitely does listen to feedback.

You are just crying because you didn't get all the toys you wanted.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#1274 - 2013-05-20 11:02:01 UTC

He does listen to the feedback . But still seems he doe snto pay enogugh attention to why we are givign the feedback. THe things we poitned taht are clearly wrong conceptually wise even . Like apoc warpign faster than tempest. Amarr were supposed to be the LEAST mobile and minmatar the MOST.

WRONG on all accounts.

The hyperion had a huge overhaul to fit its performance that was derived from a HORRIBLE slot layout. TEmpes thas same layout. ... Why tempest must be keps SLOWER and with alrger siganture ( when its model is way smaller) than typhoon ? Specially when typhoon already have more droens , better slot layout and better damage?

The improove to speed at least made the tempest a tiny wini bit faster than the mega ( yes just a tiny wini because the temepst has smaller mass so when using prop mod the difference is smaller.

We clearly show and refute dreamy illusions that tempest has a rolem, showign that Hyperion, Mega, Maelstrom and typhoon can all outexcel the tempest on any role you find for the tempest.

Adn we all argee that being a BAD but vertical ship is not exaclty a ROLE.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Jonas Sukarala

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 309

#1275 - 2013-05-20 12:44:26 UTC

Its funny that you regard the tempest as a over sized battlecruiser but for that to be the case it would have to be the smallest, lowest mass and most mobile/quickest of all the battleship class for that to make sense ... but alas it is not :(

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change? ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

The Djego

Hellequin Inc.

Likes received: 266

#1276 - 2013-05-20 12:48:30 UTC | Edited by: The Djego

Hagika wrote:

The Djego wrote:

Gargantoi wrote:

You need the painters and rigs anyway. Every effective PVE raven got them fitted(that fitting is in every raven thread since 2009). I can get over 1,5k volleys against a dual painted and webbed frig, that is enough to kill pretty much all non elite firgs in L4. The difference is you can't do much against frigs if you are not in a puls Paladin or blaster Kronos once they are in orbit(and you should never use a blaster Kronos and lose the biggest advantage of the Paladin if you fit puls), while you can do it easily in a standard L4 raven, if you really want it up to one shot kill levels. The explosion velocity changes combined with the higher damage actually result in more damage against frigs, not less.

If you can't fly a raven with a 2 or 3 slot tank in L4 than your issue is probably that you take to many damage, because you apply to little damage yourself. I can spend halve of my cap in my torp golem mwding around and still can easily handle L4 with a couple of boost out of a 2 or 3 slot tank where the only fancy item is a 100M Pith A type large booster, you don't even need a cap booster.

I would advise you that you read this thread to get a better picture about how missile ships are fitted, used and how missiles work before you raise your complains: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread

Btw the bonus difference between phoon and raven is very negotiable after proper rigging and fitting, the major difference are the extra drones.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#1277 - 2013-05-20 13:19:48 UTC

Jonas Sukarala wrote:

Not only that, it's effective agility (combined agility and mass, as indicated by align time, is worse than the attack Battleship fromt he race that is supposed to be the LEAST mobile.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#1278 - 2013-05-20 13:21:38 UTC

The Djego wrote:

Hagika wrote:

The Djego wrote:

Gargantoi wrote:

You need the painters and rigs anyway. Every effective PVE raven got them fitted(that fitting is in every raven thread since 2009). I can get over 1,5k volleys against a dual painted and webbed frig, that is enough to kill pretty much all non elite firgs in L4. The difference is you can't do much against frigs if you are not in a puls Paladin or blaster Kronos once they are in orbit(and you should never use a blaster Kronos and lose the biggest advantage of the Paladin if you fit puls), while you can do it easily in a standard L4 raven, if you really want it up to one shot kill levels. The explosion velocity changes combined with the higher damage actually result in more damage against frigs, not less.

If you can't fly a raven with a 2 or 3 slot tank in L4 than your issue is probably that you take to many damage, because you apply to little damage yourself. I can spend halve of my cap in my torp golem mwding around and still can easily handle L4 with a couple of boost out of a 2 or 3 slot tank where the only fancy item is a 100M Pith A type large booster, you don't even need a cap booster.

I would advise you that you read this thread to get a better picture about how missile ships are fitted, used and how missiles work before you raise your complains: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread

Btw the bonus difference between phoon and raven is very negotiable after popper rigging and fitting, the major difference are the extra drones.

Would not hit me as unfair to give raven a 100/100 drone bay.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Altimo

Kitchen Sink Kapitals

Likes received: 70

#1279 - 2013-05-20 13:41:59 UTC

Malcanis wrote:

Hagika wrote:

Gargantoi wrote:

CCP Rise definitely does listen to feedback.

You are just crying because you didn't get all the toys you wanted.

They aren't crying at all, it is a legitimate complaint when 90% of the posts here agree on the fact the tempest needs a proper change, it's slot layout is bad, and its speed gives it no advantage, and it doesn't take very well at all. this has already been proven, in fact this has been the case for a very long time, not sure when you joined but back in 2004 when I joined the tempest was still the "subpar" tier 2 battleship, with the typhoon proving it be all round more useful as well as every other battleship.

Poor tank, average dps, yes 900 to 1k isn't a big deal when you are sacrificing so much, also given the fact that this is a BATTLESHIP I'd say that's terrible because it literally becomes a glass cannon. Speed? Typhoon is faster, Mega can keep up with it, and considering TE's are nerfed and the ship has no fall off bonus well that makes a kiting tempest very hard to do now doesn't it.

It doesn't shine very well as an armor alpha, and when using artillery for long range gank, why spend 150 mill + when you can get a much cheaper alternative. Oh yes, the tempest may be going up in price as well.

We aren't saying the tempest is a bad ship, it's just not good either. It falls somewhere in the lines of "Okay" and really not something you want to use because whatever you want to use it for, there's a better alternative. This ship doesn't have it's own role, and it still remains a not needed or wanted ship. People have been talking about the poor stats of the tempest for years. The slight speed buff it got, does not change anything.

Jerick Ludhowe

Internet Tuff Guys

Likes received: 687

#1280 - 2013-05-20 13:50:03 UTC

Malcanis wrote:

CCP Rise definitely does listen to feedback.

You are just crying because you didn't get all the toys you wanted.

Wow you're a bad csm...

People are not "crying" they are raising a legitimate concern that the tempest, as is currently proposed, is lack luster... The reality is that these "Cries" as you claim, are 100% accurate. The current tempest is bad and will be bad. There is a plethora of suggestions here focused on making the ship better. You'd do best not to discredit this invaluable community feed back.

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