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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Dominix
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Ragnarok Knight
ROGUE - DRONES
#1 - 2013-05-19 19:55:23 UTC
Quote:
Dominix:

With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.

We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!

I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones – no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 465(+45)


That's great and all. But at the same time, the new Geddon is going to arguably be a better drone boat. What happened to gallente racial flavour?

I have a simple suggestion that i think is stylish, and fair.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
+1 drone control (not per level, max drones launched = 6)

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets (-1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 150 (+25) / 400 (+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 465(+45)

An increase in DPS to compensate for the loss of turrets. And a stylish 6 drone gang, something that fits with the theme of gallente, and isn't crazy powerful since drones are countered with smart bombs, focus firing, etc.

570ish dps with max skills comming from ogre2's.....compensates for the loss of 25% of dps from the 6 large hybrid blasters, with the 6th highslot no longer a turret to shave it off a bit more in that department.

If this change *isn't* done.....then why doesn't the ammar intro talk about drones as well since they get a domi.....with a neut bonus......?
Yaturi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-05-19 21:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Yaturi
I think the devs have signed off on fixing the Gallente favoring drone problem......atleast until drone control is addressed properly.

However, your idea does seem pretty solid. Im not adverse to a 6th drone because the overpowering factor is absent like you showed.

There have been proposals regarding better drone control such as module buttoning and the like. Hopefully these issues will come to light soon.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#3 - 2013-05-19 21:53:07 UTC
are you kidding? the geddon a better drone boat? it only gets the domi's original bonus.
now, ccp got rid of the split weapon bonus on the domi and gave it to the geddon.

really?

i am drooling over the new domi almost to the point of wasting a month training it to rank 5.

the neut range bonus will be ok in pvp, but what about missions? the new domi will gain 2 omni directional tracking links as a ship bonus!!!!!!!
come on.
the drones may say 775 dps, but when they hit excellent shots or better every other shot? thats a huge damage mod.
now, add the 2 omni directional II's back and yer garde II's are hitting 75k and doing wrecking shots every other shot.
we're talking 2-3 1500 point shots a cycle.

the new domi is the shyt. i am hatin my new geddon. not because its a drone boat (i have fighter bomber skillz, i like drones), but because of the split weapon bonus and it's not the new domi bonus. some times i enjoy pvp, sometimes i rat, but the bonuses are for pvp and not missions. when was the last time you neuted a mission rat?
nos? yeah, 40k vamp range..not bad if u arent cap stable, but i snipe at 100k. whats a nos going to do at 100k?. but still, we amarrians have a drone boat now. im good with that. i will train the domi up for missions and break out the geddon for gate camping.

there is a huge difference when i fly my rattle snake with and without the omni tracking links. i suggest you try it.
75k garde II's...damn! 150k wardens??? thats a looooong sniping range.
simply sick.. i cant wait.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#4 - 2013-05-19 21:57:50 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Quote:
An increase in DPS to compensate for the loss of turrets. And a stylish 6 drone gang, something that fits with the theme of gallente, and isn't crazy powerful since drones are countered with smart bombs, focus firing, etc.

As has been stated over and over again in the 127 page DevThread about Gallente T1 BS's, the Dominix at current IS THE HIGHEST DPS BATTLESHIP IN THE GAME (non-Pirate). That is the SOLE reason CCP is removing the 25% gun bonus, to bring it's DPS down and in line with all other T1 BS's. Doing so gave them an opportunity to give the Domi a secondary Drone bonus (which makes it a FAR superior Drone Boat in PvE than the Geddon). Therefore no matter how many people cry and whine that CCP should instead do this or that to keep the Domi as OP as it is now it won't change the fact that what CCP is doing for Odyssey is the correct move to balance the Domi.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Ragnarok Knight
ROGUE - DRONES
#5 - 2013-05-19 22:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragnarok Knight
All good points. Perhaps if the hp were nerfed a little, but the idea of a 6th drone is still solid i feel.

Shouldn't ammar's racial flavor to be more tank than gank? let the thinner higher damage vessels tend to be gallente?

The optimal range bonus just means that the sniping drones are now equal to beam weapons or other long range shots.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#6 - 2013-05-19 22:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
the reason we got rid of multiple drones was server lag.
i remember back in 03-04 when the domi could launch 10. several domi's in a system could bog it down so bad, you couldnt target anything. now, they have increased server capabilities and with TIDI itll help, but the fact remains, 200 domi still drop 1000 drones. an extra 200 is a drain on the system. 200 domi plus drones= 1200 things the server has to track.

they have a great bonus now. and with the tracking and range bonus, they will be slaughtering anything in range.

imagine this. you are having a fleet battle. rohk's against domi.

rohks at 50k are nasty. so are garde II's. the domi tank up and drop curators. enemy fleet is expecting thermal. the domi spider tank. everyone assigns their drones to 1 drone bunny in a fast locker, highly mobile ship that can stay out of range.

instead of calling targets, he just locks and fires. 1000 sentries hit with extreme accuracy and starts shredding.
they try to escape, and are bubbled. they have to burn out. the whole time, the 50% range on the curators is chewing them up. more bubbles, more bubbles. rohks stay on grid. drones pop rohks.

domi could have easily dropped a mix of curators and bouncers. thats em/explosive. thats only 155k dps with an insta lock and a 4 second ROF. no calling targets, no server bog due to multiple peeps locking targets. one person with virtually unlimited range and accuracy in a bone stock ship. since u dont have the 2 omni directional tracking mods, u can fit a mjd to get back on top of the enemy fleet if they get out of range or jump out of bubbles. plus, fit a cap booster, sensor booster, tracking disruptor so u can jam the enemy and kill their dps while yer drones chew em up.

this scenario is sick. and itll be easily accomplished with the new domi in stock form. the domi need to dock up with a carrier for 3 seconds to change their resistances per each fleet the encounter and drop new drones.

the domi can add a tracking disruptor plus the target spectrum breaker since they dont have to use the omni direction tracking mods. anyone trying to target the domi get the run around, anyone trying to fire on the domi get the tracking penalty.
all because of the innate drone bonus.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#7 - 2013-05-19 22:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Ragnarok Knight wrote:
All good points. Perhaps if the hp were nerfed a little, but the idea of a 6th drone is still solid i feel.

Shouldn't ammar's racial flavor to be more tank than gank? let the thinner higher damage vessels tend to be gallente?

The optimal range bonus just means that the sniping drones are now equal to beam weapons or other long range shots.

Don't get me wrong I'd love the idea of a 6th Drone, or better yet (lag oriented) change the Primary Drone bonus from +10% to +15%. That would give Drones roughly = dmg to what the primary weapon systems are on non-Drone ships, i.e. guns/missiles. CCP could even drop yet another Gun from the Domi to balance total dmg output.

I agree, Amarr's "flavor" should be tank.

The new Opt (and Tracking) is A M A Z I N G. You will see Garde II's with Optimal of 58km (with only 1 Omni) and Tracking about as high as base stat Medium Blasters!! putting out 800 DPS to 58km while tracking like a Med Blaster makes me wet myself in anticipation. Yes this new bonus is PvE oriented and the new Neut bonus on the Geddon is PvP oriented, but that's ok. DomiNeut will still be awesome with the GIGANTIC EHP buff Domi is getting. TurtleDomi's will be even better come Odyssey. The only loss of OP'ness the Domi will see is in your face Blasters + Ogres in PvP, that's it.

EDIT: After reading Mole Guy's response, I take it back and say this. The new Domi secondary is MORE geared towards PvE but Definitely has PvP applications that would own. I'm reminded of the Ishtar+Sentries+TP Alpha Fleets but in a MUCH nastier package.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Ragnarok Knight
ROGUE - DRONES
#8 - 2013-05-19 22:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragnarok Knight
true, but that was then and this is now, that fleet is also awesome with mass carrier's and with ishtar's.....but would one extra drone really be that bad now? Would less hp and an extra drone be more flavourful and fun?
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#9 - 2013-05-19 22:41:02 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Ragnarok Knight wrote:
All good points. Perhaps if the hp were nerfed a little, but the idea of a 6th drone is still solid i feel.

Shouldn't ammar's racial flavor to be more tank than gank? let the thinner higher damage vessels tend to be gallente?

The optimal range bonus just means that the sniping drones are now equal to beam weapons or other long range shots.

Don't get me wrong I'd love the idea of a 6th Drone, or better yet (lag oriented) change the Primary Drone bonus from +10% to +15%. That would give Drones roughly = dmg to what the primary weapon systems are on non-Drone ships, i.e. guns/missiles. CCP could even drop yet another Gun from the Domi to balance total dmg output.

I agree, Amarr's "flavor" should be tank.

The new Opt (and Tracking) is A M A Z I N G. You will see Garde II's with Optimal of 58km (with only 1 Omni) and Tracking about as high as base stat Medium Blasters!! putting out 800 DPS to 58km while tracking like a Med Blaster makes me wet myself in anticipation. Yes this new bonus is PvE oriented and the new Neut bonus on the Geddon is PvP oriented, but that's ok. DomiNeut will still be awesome with the GIGANTIC EHP buff Domi is getting. TurtleDomi's will be even better come Odyssey. The only loss of OP'ness the Domi will see is in your face Blasters + Ogres in PvP, that's it.



i disagree. the domi tracking is not only pve. look at the scenario i posted a couple posts up. they can be the basis of a NASTY pvp fleet. especially with the addition of a target spectrum breaker and tracking disruptor. 200 enemy trying to lock you??? whats their lock time going to be? 45 minutes? lol
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#10 - 2013-05-19 22:45:28 UTC
Ragnarok Knight wrote:
true, but that was then and this is now, that fleet is also awesome with mass carrier's and with ishtar's.....but would one extra drone really be that bad now? Would less hp and an extra drone be more flavourful and fun?



why bog the server down? you will be able to do 800 dps with garde II's on paper and more in application.

you can still have weapons, just no bonuses to them. its not only a drone boat. i feel we should be as easy on the server as possible. i have lost tooooooo many ships to grid load in null sec battles back in 04-07. we would warp in and sit. and sit.
fleet battles were always biases toward the ones who were on grid before the others got their.

lets keep lag down, dont load it up. wait till the patch comes out and see just how tough this is.
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#11 - 2013-05-19 22:48:33 UTC
Ok, I have a thread about dropping 10 drones from a Domi up right now... and now I read this one, that seems like a bad idea.

So, instead, increase the drone bonuses of ALL "drone ships", increase the drone holds to hold more drones, and make a HIGH SLOT mod that can be used to increase Alpha/DPS and HP of drones in space.

Nuf said.
Ragnarok Knight
ROGUE - DRONES
#12 - 2013-05-19 22:49:00 UTC
Because racial flavour makes the experience better. Because when some newbie get's in his dominix, he doesn't feel like ammar have an equally good drone boat. the horror of that lag is 90% fixed now. and it's only one ship with 6. most still have 5 anyway.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-05-19 22:53:57 UTC
0 turret slots. +1 drone per level.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#14 - 2013-05-19 22:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Ragnarok Knight wrote:
Because racial flavour makes the experience better. Because when some newbie get's in his dominix, he doesn't feel like ammar have an equally good drone boat. the horror of that lag is 90% fixed now. and it's only one ship with 6. most still have 5 anyway.

It's still better to increase the Primary Drone bonus from +10% to +15%. You have zero issues with increased lag and more DPS from ALL Drones to be in line with non-Drone ship's Primary Weapon systems.
Quote:
0 turret slots. +1 drone per level.

As much as I love the idea, a DomiNeut with 1650 DPS from (10) Ogre II's is WAAAY too OP.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#15 - 2013-05-19 22:57:49 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
0 turret slots. +1 drone per level.


Only problem is lag apparently.

Been reading up on other forums.

Apparently back in 2003-2004 you could launch as many drones as you had room for.

BAD lag according to those folks.

So, increasing DPS/Alpha, HP, Speed, and Range of drones on those ships would be better.

Maybe even nerfing the gun/missile slots on all drone boats to nothing and just leaving them with 5-8 high slots they can fit lots of other syuff into would work.
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#16 - 2013-05-19 22:58:50 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Ragnarok Knight wrote:
Because racial flavour makes the experience better. Because when some newbie get's in his dominix, he doesn't feel like ammar have an equally good drone boat. the horror of that lag is 90% fixed now. and it's only one ship with 6. most still have 5 anyway.

It's still better to increase the Primary Drone bonus from +10% to +15%. You have zero issues with increased lag and more DPS from ALL Drones to be in line with non-Drone ship's Primary Weapon systems.
Quote:
0 turret slots. +1 drone per level.

As much as I love the idea, a DomiNeut with 1650 DPS from (10) Ogre II's is WAAAY too OP.


And NOT increasing DPS and whatnot on the DRONES THEMSELVES... JUST the bonuses on drone boats would be the golden ticket in the wickets.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-05-19 23:03:23 UTC
Posting the two next to each other for my own purposes:

Armageddon wrote:

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points (replaced large energy turret rate of fire)
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5)
Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)



Dominix wrote:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 465(+45)

I can has blogging skills!
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-05-19 23:13:50 UTC
Okay, the domi has an extra mid at the expense of a high. It has more drone damage. It is faster, less agile, but has a better align. Has slightly stronger sensors and range.

The geddon has more PG but slightly less CPU. Also has a little more cap thus a faster recharge rate. Has a smaller sig radius.


Because of the base bonuses, I would think a slight advantage goes to the domi. While it'll trade damage for the extra mid, that means it has more flexibility for recharge, tanking, or mid utility mods.

I can has blogging skills!
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-05-19 23:17:02 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Ragnarok Knight wrote:
Because racial flavour makes the experience better. Because when some newbie get's in his dominix, he doesn't feel like ammar have an equally good drone boat. the horror of that lag is 90% fixed now. and it's only one ship with 6. most still have 5 anyway.

It's still better to increase the Primary Drone bonus from +10% to +15%. You have zero issues with increased lag and more DPS from ALL Drones to be in line with non-Drone ship's Primary Weapon systems.
Quote:
0 turret slots. +1 drone per level.

As much as I love the idea, a DomiNeut with 1650 DPS from (10) Ogre II's is WAAAY too OP.


Then the smartbombs go off -> 0 dps.Lol

SGT FUNYOUN wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
0 turret slots. +1 drone per level.


Only problem is lag apparently.

Been reading up on other forums.

Apparently back in 2003-2004 you could launch as many drones as you had room for.

BAD lag according to those folks.

So, increasing DPS/Alpha, HP, Speed, and Range of drones on those ships would be better.

Maybe even nerfing the gun/missile slots on all drone boats to nothing and just leaving them with 5-8 high slots they can fit lots of other syuff into would work.


CCP already changed the way drones are handled. If they're on the same target, they're handled as a single entity for the server. So this isn't any more load than now unless you have your drones spread over more than 5 targets.
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#20 - 2013-05-19 23:27:04 UTC
sabre906 wrote:


SGT FUNYOUN wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
0 turret slots. +1 drone per level.


Only problem is lag apparently.

Been reading up on other forums.

Apparently back in 2003-2004 you could launch as many drones as you had room for.

BAD lag according to those folks.

So, increasing DPS/Alpha, HP, Speed, and Range of drones on those ships would be better.

Maybe even nerfing the gun/missile slots on all drone boats to nothing and just leaving them with 5-8 high slots they can fit lots of other syuff into would work.


CCP already changed the way drones are handled. If they're on the same target, they're handled as a single entity for the server. So this isn't any more load than now unless you have your drones spread over more than 5 targets.


Mmm, except that each drone is treated as it's own separate little space ship. Each drone is calculated as a separate entity... just like each missile and each bullet is ALSO calculated as a separate entity.
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