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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#761 - 2013-05-02 18:11:47 UTC
gabriel7a7 wrote:
I also remember that this history I present below also was the subject of analysis at the time and never did anything about it from your company.

Now they want to be neat and clean saying there are privileged few or no advantage over other, less even than several have been perma banned for use according to CCP programs take isk easy.

Any remember!!!

Quote:
The cheating scandal in EVE Online begins to clear.
. .

One of the developers of EVE Online, called "t20", has admitted fraudulently obtained items in this massively multiplayer online title. The developer won eight planes in June 2006, that have reported earnings billionaires in game virtual currency. An internal investigation initiated by CCP, the studio that developed the game, uncovered irregularities, but despite complaints from other players, the studio closed the subject with a verbal reprimand, and that similar behaviors previous occasions resulted in the dismissal.

The case officially closed as CCP continues to rivers of ink in the forums of the game by outraged users.

never never never ccp take account banned.


Happy day CCP


Broken english aside, there's no reason to dig this one up again. For the record, CCP did take action. Just not the action the angry mob called for at the time.
t20's accounts were all banned. He was allowed to remain at CCP because you don't pass judgement on someone and then way later on fire him for the same crime.

But again, what does this have to do with this thread?

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?
gabriel7a7
Zen and Tao
#762 - 2013-05-02 19:52:57 UTC
is simple in that time there were no further comments ccp meaning the caps without further review after I take a long long time, and still do not know how much was ultimately what genre this operation.

Now we are faced with a new scandal Warp to "0" banned 30 days, other player have banned permanently root this to Mr. Hazard has said personal emails that people have been banned for using cheats that made them earn isk . But where is the proof? can this research was so acusiosa as of 2350 accounts, of which a smaller percentage were detected using cheats to win isk? and if so why was not disclosed discover the evidence of those players?

If I put this memory has been in order to remember that we've had a scandal which was very secret and discreet for them, who can now ensure that these measures have not been abusive or unfair in their measure, if it was previously something many serious!
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#763 - 2013-05-06 01:27:26 UTC
So any chance of an official ruling? I'm not asking for anything firm, but just a "That is not allowed" or "That could be allowed, depending on implementation" would be all. Maybe even some pointers on where the limits would be.
Mr Kav
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#764 - 2013-05-18 11:39:16 UTC
"Reason: You have been banned for 30 days by GM Stillman. The reason specified was: Autopilot to 0KM modification. Click here for more details
Until: 2013.05.18"

Please clarify when exactly these accounts will be unbanned as today at downtime is 30 days form the Ban date but mine are still banned.
3rd man party
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#765 - 2013-05-18 11:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: 3rd man party
Mr Kav wrote:
"Reason: You have been banned for 30 days by GM Stillman. The reason specified was: Autopilot to 0KM modification. Click here for more details
Until: 2013.05.18"

Please clarify when exactly these accounts will be unbanned as today at downtime is 30 days form the Ban date but mine are still banned.




Same here
Doug Mackenz
Ambivalence Co-operative
#766 - 2013-05-18 12:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Doug Mackenz
A friend is also still banned. He got the same messages. When exactly are the bans supposed to be lifted?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#767 - 2013-05-18 13:50:04 UTC
Doug Mackenz wrote:
A friend is also still banned. He got the same messages. When exactly are the bans supposed to be lifted?


I hope never....


I hope they saw that what you did was just ignore something that is clearly stated in the rules and thus only deserves 1 punishment:

Perma ban

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Doug Mackenz
Ambivalence Co-operative
#768 - 2013-05-18 14:07:39 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Doug Mackenz wrote:
A friend is also still banned. He got the same messages. When exactly are the bans supposed to be lifted?


I hope never....


I hope they saw that what you did was just ignore something that is clearly stated in the rules and thus only deserves 1 punishment:

Perma ban



If I'd been banned I'd take it as it comes and move on. As it is though the bans handed out where not permanent and where to be lifted after 30 days. As they have not I, and other people as well it seems, are curious when those bans will be lifted as the 30 days is up today.
Pro Versius
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#769 - 2013-05-18 15:34:55 UTC
One of my accounts was banned as well, and I took it with a grain of salt. I didn't raise hell, not even when my training cue went dry. But I have lost 2 weeks training already for something stupid, and every second that CCP doesn't get down off their high horse (more pointedly GM STILLMAN) and release these bans, is MORE lost training time that I should not have to endure.

It's like keeping someone in jail past their release date. There are repercussions for not being nice to the inmates.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#770 - 2013-07-25 06:19:35 UTC
After reading a hell of a lot - It is still not clear on Logitech Keyboard use.

If I have a 'G' key set up to Lock, Set Orbit and Turn on all Modules in one key stroke - Which must be done while at the Computer - Is that ok or not.


Just a YES or NO answer from a Dev would be nice.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Anthar Thebess
#771 - 2013-07-25 07:31:55 UTC
Well you are using macro/automation that under 1 click you can do multiple operations, always in the same order.
If you try to do it manually, you can do mistake, miss click , etc.

From my perspective you are using macros - build in in external hardware .
What is the difference between AHK that will do the same actions after 1 click and keyboard recorded macro.
Approach and effect is the same.

Still for CCP it will be hard as hell to check it, so they will not even bother ;)

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Kanati Asgaya
North Shore Industries
#772 - 2013-08-13 11:34:41 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Mila Chancel wrote:
Midnight Firestarter wrote:
Quote:
You seem to have missed the part where CCP can legally refuse service to you for any or no reason.


Not if that reason is illegally scanning my PC ...

And yes than can refuse their service ... but they still have to defend the Claim.


You are new to EULA and TOS on the internet aren't you?


EULA and TOS is to protect the company from any undue legal recourse; however, they arent a free ticket from law. The EULA may be justified under Icelandic law, but may be illegal in another country and if they are offering service to say the UK, they can apply the EULA but they still must fall under jurisdictional law of that country in order to offer its services to that country. If they violate it, said country has the right to blacklist the game and deny them customers.

In short, CCP would not have to fork over any money, but they would lose a ton of subs due to it.


I would like to mention this has already happened in the UK with Apple. A person filed a small claims saying that Apple did not have the right to enforce a TOS on OSX software when it wasnt clearly displayed on the packaging before the customer purchased it. As per UK law, all TOS and EULAs must be presented on packaging before bought. In the end the guy made a killing off it and Apple no longer has stores in the UK.



Odd, a quick Google search shows numerous Apple stores in the UK...
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#773 - 2013-08-19 00:43:43 UTC
I wonder if we'll ever hear anything about this, or if it has come to be another one of those 'Big Secret' subjects that CCP will not clarify, just make it a mysterious 'reason' for bans on players they don't like?
Master Justasii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#774 - 2013-08-29 04:29:33 UTC
It would be very helpful and necessary to know if hardware enabled HID macros will be allowed or not. I consider these types of macros to fall short of an automated bot in every way. Also, for all practical purposes, HID macros can only accomplish relatively simple tasks on their own. A straight answer would be preferred, and the answer should be 'Allowed' Keymapping and customization of HID input does not modify the client, it does not use any information from the client, and it requires direct input from the the user at the time of execution. To ban these would be at the same level as banning anyone who changed the hotkeys from the defaults. It could be easily argued that a user gained advantage by re-arranging the hotkeys into a more efficient configuration, therefore gained an advantage over a user who did not. I see little difference between the two.
Diziet Melyantim
#775 - 2013-09-01 01:22:09 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Ha! I wish... On a more serious note, this operation is around 2 months in the making, and the total number of accounts involved in this one (2350) is a small fraction of the number of accounts we have banned in the past year.

We are presenting a bunch of numbers and graphs at fanfest, this will be recorded. I'll put them up in a dev blog afterwards as well.


As much as I like the more or less recent and effective crackdown on botters, this elitism on factuals doesn't really sound good at all. Not all of us puny mortal players are able to traverse to the ever so lovely Reykjavik to witness the magical graphs, numbers and figures you so gloriously speak of.

...And I mean bloody proper figures, completely transparent ones. Given the 30ish pages I've just read. Or do we need to abolish CSM and create a new one if the previous one failed to point out possible corruption within the lines?

Then again, might just unsub the accounts, but that's not really an option is it :)
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#776 - 2013-09-01 17:06:48 UTC
Diziet Melyantim wrote:
Not all of us puny mortal players are able to traverse to the ever so lovely Reykjavik to witness the magical graphs, numbers and figures you so gloriously speak of.

...And I mean bloody proper figures, completely transparent ones. Given the 30ish pages I've just read. Or do we need to abolish CSM and create a new one if the previous one failed to point out possible corruption within the lines?

Or you could, y'know... watch it on YouTube... Bloody peasants...
Diziet Melyantim
#777 - 2013-09-02 10:26:09 UTC
Atum wrote:
Diziet Melyantim wrote:
Not all of us puny mortal players are able to traverse to the ever so lovely Reykjavik to witness the magical graphs, numbers and figures you so gloriously speak of.

...And I mean bloody proper figures, completely transparent ones. Given the 30ish pages I've just read. Or do we need to abolish CSM and create a new one if the previous one failed to point out possible corruption within the lines?

Or you could, y'know... watch it on YouTube... Bloody peasants...


I stand corrected, thank you.

Needlessly agitated post on my behalf in the first place, sorry about that folks.
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#778 - 2013-09-03 10:23:35 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Horatius Caul wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

The EULA has always been completely vague. The nearest we have had previously was that cache scraping was legal.

All EULAs are vague, on purpose. Why? Because they are written to allow the first party to cover all eventualities and do whatever they want with you. The EULA also makes it clear that CCP can ban you for whatever reasons they feel like, should it come to that.

A dev saying that something is okay or another dev saying something should be okay to do doesn't actually void the agreement you've accepted which states that doing so is not okay. The EULA is written by lawyers to protect the company, and random members of staff can't alter its clauses.

What they can do is opt to enforce or not enforce the clauses on a case-by-case basis, which CCP's security staff does. They could just as easily take a blanket approach to the TOS and EULA and enforce it by the letter, which wouldn't just ban everybody using EVEMON but also everybody who's ever used Triexporter to play around with EVE's 3D models, textures, or fonts. But they haven't, because they value these things in the community and don't consider you a bad person. CCP has made an effort to separate botters from other people who violate the EULA, which is more than you can expect from most companies.

"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.

This gentleman is spot on. Smile

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.


The EULA forms a contract. Ambiguity in contract law favours the side that didn't write the contract in most Western countries. Likewise the EULA cannot be used to take away any legally granted rights in any country of residence so the EULA needs to be non-vague or you cannot enforce it at all.
NCAP Target Dummy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#779 - 2013-09-05 07:29:50 UTC
What's now the official position about market cache scraping?

Seems in the last patch the cache format changed, so almost all of market data uploader stopped working.
But last time, the officials said "scaping won't be punished", however this change (and the need to reverse engineer the cache again) suggest other.

I understand, that there is a large number of market bot (even for hauler trading), whom get their data from this sites, but it was also useful for ordinary players, to save a few hundred thousand or million when fitting a new ship, or manufacturing, etc.
Dr Felonius
Civilian Purposes Limited
#780 - 2013-09-05 14:08:09 UTC
NCAP Target Dummy wrote:
What's now the official position about market cache scraping?

Seems in the last patch the cache format changed, so almost all of market data uploader stopped working.
But last time, the officials said "scaping won't be punished", however this change (and the need to reverse engineer the cache again) suggest other.

I understand, that there is a large number of market bot (even for hauler trading), whom get their data from this sites, but it was also useful for ordinary players, to save a few hundred thousand or million when fitting a new ship, or manufacturing, etc.


If CCP intends to put a stop to cache scraping for market data, I hope they'll provide an official market API portal to replace it. I understand the desire to keep the game complex, but manually adding market data to a spreadsheet isn't complex, it's just tedious.