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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1221 - 2013-05-18 07:27:50 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I really want both of these ships to be fun, so I promise we will watch them after release and if there's big problems we will look at making changes to fix them.


Means: "The changes are set now. Thank you for the feedback. Later on we might add 1 pg and some armor but don't count on it."

Thank you for the speed boost. It is not the direction "I" wanted the pest to take, but it was a necessary step towards "Big Cane" vision. I still believe pest needs more love.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1222 - 2013-05-18 09:37:36 UTC
That is just another example why CCP shoudl hite people good in MATH, not in playing the game only to balance the ships.

Anyone reasoanble in math can see how inferior the tempest is to its peers.




I still am waiting WHAT the tempes thave that pays off on :

Hyperion: 10% DAMAGE bonus on 6 turrets .. single bonus agiasn tempest need of 2 bonuses to match
Hyperions - 125 drone bay vs 75 .. ok its the DRONE race.. but then wy
Hyperion- More agile.. yes more agile then the large hurricane that you spoke off. FAIL!!!
Hyperion 7.5% active repair bonus vs tempest NO bonuys.. because it spent all its bonuses to match a single hyperion bonus
Hyperion great slow layout.. tempest worst slot layout in battleships.




How in heell anyone can not see how INCREDBLY unbalanced that is?

The range advantage oF AC is gone sicne the Blasters revamp. The AC are only better after ranges they are doing under half their dps. In other words, ranges where you would have been better flying somethign entirely different from the start. That measn FAIL.



Just want a proper reponse devoid od delusions, why in hell would ANYONE ever want to fly a tempest over another battleship? That situation does nto exist! The others battleships plus the attack BCstoel all spaec from my most beloved ship, the giant pirate ship should jut be removed from the game :(

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#1223 - 2013-05-18 09:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Seriously though, what role is left for the tempest? Typhoon takes the aggressive in your face powerhouse role, and also packs a great deal of utility. Mael is the definition of slow, tanky, and great alpha, which makes it the best mission ship and fleet ship. And the tornado wins in the fast high damage department which completely outclassses the Tempest for that role.

Tweaking numbers back and forth isn't really cutting it, and I honestly can't blame Rise for this one. The meta has changed, and Tempest no longer has a place.

So if we want to fix it, we need to figure out what is left. What could the tempest possibly do that would be different?

And now to throw out some incredibly stupid ideas which will probably not solve anything:

Bad Idea #1:Lower it's damage, buff it's agility, speed, AND it's tank. Make it like a battleship version of many of the low tier "outlast the opponent" minmatar ships like current meta Rifter, Breacher, or ASB Cyclone. Terrible ******* idea, but at least it would stick out. Would still prolly be useless though.

Bad Idea #2: Make it an ewar ship, with a bonus to web range, and a big agility buff. Turn it into some battleship hellspawn of the Rapier and the Vagabond.

Bad Idea #2a: OR, give it a velocity/agility bonus like the old stabber or vigil. Because why the hell not.

Bad Idea #3: In trying to make it the "fast" minmatar battleship, give it some kind of bonus that makes MWD work while scrammed(but still cannot warp). This one is the worst lolol.

Bad Idea #4: Give it like a 7.5% tracking bonus per level, and a MUCH larger drone bay. Ditch one of the damage bonuses but compensate for it in drone bay. Sort of turn it into a much larger Rupture. Still buff it's agility with this one. Edit: Actually I like this one. That would make it different, and potentially still quite useful.

Bonus Bad Idea: Give it a bonus to laser damage and shield resistances. Do adjust fittings accordingly. Laugh heartily.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1224 - 2013-05-18 11:05:29 UTC
All these ideas have been proesented.

Strange is tempest for a long timehas been the ship without a role and in most dire need of changes. Yet it was changed in nothing basically.

But ships that exceled at their roels and peopel loved like the armageddon and typhoon were revamped completely.

The standards on decisiosn of what to change and how seems extremely awkwards and disconnected from the in server reality.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Syreniac
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1225 - 2013-05-18 11:12:23 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Seriously though, what role is left for the tempest? Typhoon takes the aggressive in your face powerhouse role, and also packs a great deal of utility. Mael is the definition of slow, tanky, and great alpha, which makes it the best mission ship and fleet ship. And the tornado wins in the fast high damage department which completely outclassses the Tempest for that role.

Tweaking numbers back and forth isn't really cutting it, and I honestly can't blame Rise for this one. The meta has changed, and Tempest no longer has a place.

So if we want to fix it, we need to figure out what is left. What could the tempest possibly do that would be different


Personally, I'd go for removing the ROF bonus, giving it a falloff bonus and increasing the damage bonus to 10% per level. That would give it effectively 9 turrets of damage and alpha, so compensate by upping its drone bay and bandwidth.

That would give it a niche relative to the other Minmatar battleships - it would be the longest ranged Minmatar battleship, and even give it an edge over the Tornado. It would also show a nice link between the Vargur (which gives a falloff bonus) and give a t1 battleship with falloff bonused ACs that would help people practice for the Machariel. With the TE adjustment, the falloff bonus isn't as powerful as it was.

However, the Typhoon and Maelstrom would still have advantages compared to a Tempest with these bonuses. The Maelstrom would have higher peak DPS (10.666 turrets compared to 9) as well as being more able to shield tank and therefore fit more damage mods () and having generally higher EHP. The Typhoon would use a different weapon system, as well as having better short range damage and damage application.

That's just my 0.02 ISK though.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1226 - 2013-05-18 12:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Kagura Nikon wrote:

The range advantage oF AC is gone sicne the Blasters revamp. The AC are only better after ranges they are doing under half their dps. In other words, ranges where you would have been better flying somethign entirely different from the start. That measn FAIL.



this is EXACTLY where i see the problem (along with its mass)
(esp with te nerf in mind it only gets worse... )

large AC's need rework or ships that use then bonuses to fix it
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1227 - 2013-05-18 12:02:20 UTC
Or just change the 5% damage bonus to another rof bonus. 10% :P :P :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1228 - 2013-05-18 12:09:04 UTC
The Tempest still has a role, it is just the roles are not handed to us on a platter as with some of the other ships, and sort of the point of the Tempest is it doesn't have one specific role but can fufill a few different ones much like the hurricane. I can see a few roles quite clearly for it now, but because it's attributes are a little underwhelming, it doesn't particularly perform well.

I don't think we should be focusing on trying to completely redesign the Tempest, but instead work with what is there and find ways in which Rise could perhaps increase its attributes to make it work.

Two roles it can do for a start.

1 - Close range active armour and dual nuets (armaggeddon doesn't overlap too much as it has no gunnery bonus, and its nuet bonues are range bonus which aren't useful for close range)

2 - Long range shield and artillery fit (with cruise missiles it out-damages the Tornado, and has much greater EHP, but currently the benefits of the Tornado perhaps outweigh any small advantage you get from the Tempest)

I'm sure there are a few more roles also which it could be used for once people start playing round with it.

Personally I think combining the damage bonus into a single bonus giving the same dps as before, and then adding another bonus such as tracking or falloff would fix the Tempest and make it far more usable. We need to give some realistic suggestions to CCP Rise though if we are going to get any changes at all.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1229 - 2013-05-18 12:12:58 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
The Tempest still has a role, it is just the roles are not handed to us on a platter as with some of the other ships, and sort of the point of the Tempest is it doesn't have one specific role but can fufill a few different ones much like the hurricane. I can see a few roles quite clearly for it now, but because it's attributes are a little underwhelming, it doesn't particularly perform well.

I don't think we should be focusing on trying to completely redesign the Tempest, but instead work with what is there and find ways in which Rise could perhaps increase its attributes to make it work.

Two roles it can do for a start.

1 - Close range active armour and dual nuets (armaggeddon doesn't overlap too much as it has no gunnery bonus, and its nuet bonues are range bonus which aren't useful for close range)

2 - Long range shield and artillery fit (with cruise missiles it out-damages the Tornado, and has much greater EHP, but currently the benefits of the Tornado perhaps outweigh any small advantage you get from the Tempest)

I'm sure there are a few more roles also which it could be used for once people start playing round with it.

Personally I think combining the damage bonus into a single bonus giving the same dps as before, and then adding another bonus such as tracking or falloff would fix the Tempest and make it far more usable. We need to give some realistic suggestions to CCP Rise though if we are going to get any changes at all.



The armageddon Does overlap that. It can do basically almost as much damage as the tempest using torpedoes and drones. That with superior slot layout. Also active tanked and dual neuts is NOT a role, its a FAIL fit because you will cap yourself too fast.

Logn range arti with shield is maelstrom ROLE! THe maesltrom is WAy superior there.

So No there is no realistic situation you would prefer the tempest over other ships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1230 - 2013-05-18 12:36:13 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
The Tempest still has a role, it is just the roles are not handed to us on a platter as with some of the other ships, and sort of the point of the Tempest is it doesn't have one specific role but can fufill a few different ones much like the hurricane. I can see a few roles quite clearly for it now, but because it's attributes are a little underwhelming, it doesn't particularly perform well.

I don't think we should be focusing on trying to completely redesign the Tempest, but instead work with what is there and find ways in which Rise could perhaps increase its attributes to make it work.

Two roles it can do for a start.

1 - Close range active armour and dual nuets (armaggeddon doesn't overlap too much as it has no gunnery bonus, and its nuet bonues are range bonus which aren't useful for close range)

2 - Long range shield and artillery fit (with cruise missiles it out-damages the Tornado, and has much greater EHP, but currently the benefits of the Tornado perhaps outweigh any small advantage you get from the Tempest)

I'm sure there are a few more roles also which it could be used for once people start playing round with it.

Personally I think combining the damage bonus into a single bonus giving the same dps as before, and then adding another bonus such as tracking or falloff would fix the Tempest and make it far more usable. We need to give some realistic suggestions to CCP Rise though if we are going to get any changes at all.



The armageddon Does overlap that. It can do basically almost as much damage as the tempest using torpedoes and drones. That with superior slot layout. Also active tanked and dual neuts is NOT a role, its a FAIL fit because you will cap yourself too fast.

Logn range arti with shield is maelstrom ROLE! THe maesltrom is WAy superior there.

So No there is no realistic situation you would prefer the tempest over other ships.


That is why I'm saying increase its attributes such as dps and damage application so it performs better.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1231 - 2013-05-18 13:40:41 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
The Tempest still has a role, it is just the roles are not handed to us on a platter as with some of the other ships, and sort of the point of the Tempest is it doesn't have one specific role but can fufill a few different ones much like the hurricane. I can see a few roles quite clearly for it now, but because it's attributes are a little underwhelming, it doesn't particularly perform well.

I don't think we should be focusing on trying to completely redesign the Tempest, but instead work with what is there and find ways in which Rise could perhaps increase its attributes to make it work.

Two roles it can do for a start.

1 - Close range active armour and dual nuets (armaggeddon doesn't overlap too much as it has no gunnery bonus, and its nuet bonues are range bonus which aren't useful for close range)

2 - Long range shield and artillery fit (with cruise missiles it out-damages the Tornado, and has much greater EHP, but currently the benefits of the Tornado perhaps outweigh any small advantage you get from the Tempest)

I'm sure there are a few more roles also which it could be used for once people start playing round with it.

Personally I think combining the damage bonus into a single bonus giving the same dps as before, and then adding another bonus such as tracking or falloff would fix the Tempest and make it far more usable. We need to give some realistic suggestions to CCP Rise though if we are going to get any changes at all.



The armageddon Does overlap that. It can do basically almost as much damage as the tempest using torpedoes and drones. That with superior slot layout. Also active tanked and dual neuts is NOT a role, its a FAIL fit because you will cap yourself too fast.

Logn range arti with shield is maelstrom ROLE! THe maesltrom is WAy superior there.

So No there is no realistic situation you would prefer the tempest over other ships.


That is why I'm saying increase its attributes such as dps and damage application so it performs better.


As I stated earlier I keep that CCP shoudl have changed BOTH maesltrom and tempest. Change tempest into 7/6/6 8.5% rof bonus and 7.5% shield boost bonus. There you have your close range brawler. Strong, powerful and minmatarish. Maelstrom Focus in fleet operations. 5% Damage per level (yes lower dps, but I said FOCUS) and 10% shield Hp per level. Yes HP, what you use in a fleet.


Both ships have distinct roles that are not overshdowed by anything else. Also the malestrom stop being passed in favor of ARTI abaddons that is somethign stupid that shows things are wrong.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1232 - 2013-05-18 17:05:21 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
The Tempest still has a role, it is just the roles are not handed to us on a platter as with some of the other ships, and sort of the point of the Tempest is it doesn't have one specific role but can fufill a few different ones much like the hurricane. I can see a few roles quite clearly for it now, but because it's attributes are a little underwhelming, it doesn't particularly perform well.

I don't think we should be focusing on trying to completely redesign the Tempest, but instead work with what is there and find ways in which Rise could perhaps increase its attributes to make it work.

Two roles it can do for a start.

1 - Close range active armour and dual nuets (armaggeddon doesn't overlap too much as it has no gunnery bonus, and its nuet bonues are range bonus which aren't useful for close range)

2 - Long range shield and artillery fit (with cruise missiles it out-damages the Tornado, and has much greater EHP, but currently the benefits of the Tornado perhaps outweigh any small advantage you get from the Tempest)

I'm sure there are a few more roles also which it could be used for once people start playing round with it.

Personally I think combining the damage bonus into a single bonus giving the same dps as before, and then adding another bonus such as tracking or falloff would fix the Tempest and make it far more usable. We need to give some realistic suggestions to CCP Rise though if we are going to get any changes at all.



The armageddon Does overlap that. It can do basically almost as much damage as the tempest using torpedoes and drones. That with superior slot layout. Also active tanked and dual neuts is NOT a role, its a FAIL fit because you will cap yourself too fast.

Logn range arti with shield is maelstrom ROLE! THe maesltrom is WAy superior there.

So No there is no realistic situation you would prefer the tempest over other ships.


That is why I'm saying increase its attributes such as dps and damage application so it performs better.


As I stated earlier I keep that CCP shoudl have changed BOTH maesltrom and tempest. Change tempest into 7/6/6 8.5% rof bonus and 7.5% shield boost bonus. There you have your close range brawler. Strong, powerful and minmatarish. Maelstrom Focus in fleet operations. 5% Damage per level (yes lower dps, but I said FOCUS) and 10% shield Hp per level. Yes HP, what you use in a fleet.


Both ships have distinct roles that are not overshdowed by anything else. Also the malestrom stop being passed in favor of ARTI abaddons that is somethign stupid that shows things are wrong.

CCP giving bonuses to minmatar hulls that perfectly suit their intended roles? Don't be silly...

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1233 - 2013-05-18 18:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Yeah I know they would have to use the same standard they used with Gallente ships. And we cannot have that right?

Another advantage of my approach is that if CCP deemed needed they can reduce arties alpha (keepign DPS) by aroudn 10%, helping nerf the tornado blappers a bit.

If someone can dare to say thisis too much I woudl be satisfied and dare to anyoen realistically say would not be way more fun than right now:

maelstrom 5% damage per level 7.5% shield HP per level (2 weak bonuses on a strong hull)

Tempest 7.5% rof and 7.5% shield boost 7/6/6 Less dps even, but with a LOT more takability for short periods, therefore a great brwler ships that doe snto compete with tornado, or maelstrom or typhoon.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1234 - 2013-05-18 18:36:53 UTC
Yes. But it isn't just Minmatar. Both the Maelstrom and the Hyperion get an active tank bonus which is completely out of place on a fleet ships. This seems a quirk which CCP want to keep. Yet another relic of pre tiericide just like the 6 turret points on the Typhoon.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1235 - 2013-05-18 18:41:20 UTC
Combat ship /= Fleet Ship

Megathron and Apoc are both the fleet battleships for there race.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1236 - 2013-05-18 19:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Yeah I know they would have to use the same standard they used with Gallente ships. And we cannot have that right?


ill skill galente ships right now i had so hoped for the minmatar ones but typhoon/TYFI/Vargur is not enogh fot take bs5 and skill cruise torp ac just to have alle i could have by just skilling gallente and balster/rail... (+ haveing talos which is superior to tornado if you dont need alpha)
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1237 - 2013-05-18 20:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gargantoi
.
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1238 - 2013-05-18 20:24:13 UTC
Gargantoi wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Yeah I know they would have to use the same standard they used with Gallente ships. And we cannot have that right?

Another advantage of my approach is that if CCP deemed needed they can reduce arties alpha (keepign DPS) by aroudn 10%, helping nerf the tornado blappers a bit.

If someone can dare to say thisis too much I woudl be satisfied and dare to anyoen realistically say would not be way more fun than right now:

maelstrom 5% damage per level 7.5% shield HP per level (2 weak bonuses on a strong hull)

Tempest 7.5% rof and 7.5% shield boost 7/6/6 Less dps even, but with a LOT more takability for short periods, therefore a great brwler ships that doe snto compete with tornado, or maelstrom or typhoon.

your ideea on maelstrom is so ******** it amazes me ..we curently turned this topic into a "ccp boost ******* tempest" if they would do maelstrom like u sugest then we would open a boost maelstrom topic or "keep it same bonuses" problem with minmatar starts at guns autocannons have a very low dmg modifier and a high rof if they would lower the rof and boost the dmg from the 800/650/425 autos the 5%rof +5 % dmg bonus to tempest would be more then ok but ccp needs to redoo the layout slots on the tempest ..cuz i agree with u ..hyperion rocks ..geddon ...has cpu issues with a torpedo fit like u sugested but works as for tempest it cant be armor buffed cuz u dont have neither big hp neither high resist neither good dps ..a hurricane doese better ...as for shield ..well everything that goese same as your speed or faster warp scram's u and u'r buff dies as i said ...but ccp should do what they intended in the first place as in to make the tempest a shield bs ..thats why vargur is shield tanked and tribal pest has a slot layout familiar to be better with a shield tank also ...so they would just need to replace the maelstrom bonuses with tempest like they did (mega / hyp ) and on the maelstrom focuse that ship on either armor + max dmg or shield + max dmg (like hyp / abaddon / )
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#1239 - 2013-05-18 21:29:55 UTC
Is that a forum post, or did someone hack up their alpha bits?

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1240 - 2013-05-19 00:48:20 UTC
Gargantoi wrote:
Gargantoi wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Yeah I know they would have to use the same standard they used with Gallente ships. And we cannot have that right?

Another advantage of my approach is that if CCP deemed needed they can reduce arties alpha (keepign DPS) by aroudn 10%, helping nerf the tornado blappers a bit.

If someone can dare to say thisis too much I woudl be satisfied and dare to anyoen realistically say would not be way more fun than right now:

maelstrom 5% damage per level 7.5% shield HP per level (2 weak bonuses on a strong hull)

Tempest 7.5% rof and 7.5% shield boost 7/6/6 Less dps even, but with a LOT more takability for short periods, therefore a great brwler ships that doe snto compete with tornado, or maelstrom or typhoon.

your ideea on maelstrom is so ******** it amazes me ..we curently turned this topic into a "ccp boost ******* tempest" if they would do maelstrom like u sugest then we would open a boost maelstrom topic or "keep it same bonuses" problem with minmatar starts at guns autocannons have a very low dmg modifier and a high rof if they would lower the rof and boost the dmg from the 800/650/425 autos the 5%rof +5 % dmg bonus to tempest would be more then ok but ccp needs to redoo the layout slots on the tempest ..cuz i agree with u ..hyperion rocks ..geddon ...has cpu issues with a torpedo fit like u sugested but works as for tempest it cant be armor buffed cuz u dont have neither big hp neither high resist neither good dps ..a hurricane doese better ...as for shield ..well everything that goese same as your speed or faster warp scram's u and u'r buff dies as i said ...but ccp should do what they intended in the first place as in to make the tempest a shield bs ..thats why vargur is shield tanked and tribal pest has a slot layout familiar to be better with a shield tank also ...so they would just need to replace the maelstrom bonuses with tempest like they did (mega / hyp ) and on the maelstrom focuse that ship on either armor + max dmg or shield + max dmg (like hyp / abaddon / )



You could try to organize your toughts before posting.

My maelstrom idea is nto a boost to it. In fact it becomes a bit weaker on most uses not its main role. Its a FOCALIZATIOn. The things that minamtar is lacking. It coudl require some adjutments to reduce arti alpha a bit. But that woudl be good because tornado is currently too powerful of an alpha ship.

It sovles several problems, keep ships in specific roles, REAL roles, not imaginary ones, with bonuses taht match their usage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"