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Dev blog: Odyssey summer expansion: Starbase iterations

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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#601 - 2013-05-14 22:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
The cool thing about POS was the ability to steal from others, backstabbing ftw.

The Tears Must Flow
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#602 - 2013-05-16 14:25:44 UTC
Alacrity Fitzhoughs wrote:
Silvonus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • Private Hangers in the 50k size are completed and will be on SISI when it comes up today available for testing.
    • Current Personal Hangar storage size on Singularity is 1,400,000m3. You might need to adjust some numbers. Blink



    That is what I am seeing also. Bug?


    It's the correct size as of today's sisi patch.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Rek Seven
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #603 - 2013-05-16 14:31:44 UTC
    CEO's still don't have access to these personal hangers i see... FAIL!

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #604 - 2013-05-16 15:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
    Rek Seven wrote:
    CEO's still don't have access to these personal hangers i see... FAIL!


    Then don't launch Private Hanger Arrays.

    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Alacrity Fitzhoughs wrote:
    Silvonus wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • Private Hangers in the 50k size are completed and will be on SISI when it comes up today available for testing.
    • Current Personal Hangar storage size on Singularity is 1,400,000m3. You might need to adjust some numbers. Blink



    That is what I am seeing also. Bug?


    It's the correct size as of today's sisi patch.


    Ummm.. no comment atm.

    The Private SMA's still need to be addressed.

    You really want to take Pos's to where they need to be and get people to use the New Capital SMA's in Lowsec and Nullsec and Wormholes....


    1) Shrink Ship Maintenance Arrays to hold 14 million m3, just under the size of the Rorqual. This causes the following
    A) No capital ships can fit in them anymore except the Orca (its 10 million m3)
    B) Any and all capital ships currently in SMA's will stay in there until launched/boarded, to which they cannot get back inside.

    This causes the "Required use" of capital SMA's for all Capital Type ships (hey you fly a capital, everybody will know), no more hiding them inside tiny SMA's

    2) Create the Personal SMA's, to fit about 2 million m3 of ships. This would hold roughly 4 battleships for each person (Or multiple smaller ships if they fly such things).

    This revamps the concept of the SMA's themselves, allowing people to store more ships with more SMA's provided. Its secure, same concept as the New Corporate Hanger arrays.

    Basic questions people will probaby ask.

    1) Why use the Normal SMA now?
    It still provides 14 million M3 of space for those people who are not worried about security (there are allot of family corps), it also provides a method of community ship use (sometimes you do not want to store specific ships in a protected SMA because people cannot get to them when needed). There are still multiple uses for the normal SMA.

    2) You nerfed the normal SMA.. its Useless, can't fit a cap in it!!!
    The SMA is a dated module, and for most purposes, should not have been large enough to secure a capital ship anyway. Most places use these things to hide their capitals (which honestly, is silly). If you have the isk to build a capital, you should have the brawn to store it in a Capital SMA. Will people know where these ships/modules are....

    Yep.. that's the point. More conflict, little more fear, more determination, more fights. Time to get these ships in the fight.

    3) Why only 2 million M3 in the Personal SMA? I can't fit my 34 battleships in that!!
    The personal SMA is meant to secure critical ships YOU fly. You want to keep your 8 billion isk Loki protected, you now can. You want to store a bazillion ships, use a Regular SMA, use the Capital SMA, or launch more Private SMA's.

    4) I hate your idea!!! Its a Nerf!!!
    Yea well you can't keep your toy's hidden from prying eyes anymore. Expect allot of explosions in the near future.

    Yaay!!!!
    Rengerel en Distel
    #605 - 2013-05-16 18:53:07 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Alacrity Fitzhoughs wrote:
    Silvonus wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • Private Hangers in the 50k size are completed and will be on SISI when it comes up today available for testing.
    • Current Personal Hangar storage size on Singularity is 1,400,000m3. You might need to adjust some numbers. Blink



    That is what I am seeing also. Bug?


    It's the correct size as of today's sisi patch.


    Any chance this gets changed to a value that makes it worth using? 50k is obscenely small.

    I'm not sure what your idea of the use of this "hangar" is when it's that small. I would think at a bare minimum it should be in the 250k range. You really have to think of the people that actually live out of a POS.

    With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #606 - 2013-05-17 18:29:20 UTC
    Hey guys, just want to preemptively post here to make sure you all know that no matter what you hear, Personal Hangar Arrays are still in Odyssey. They're on SISI now and they will be hitting TQ on June 4th.

    As for the size concerns, we intend these structures to compliment larger volume shared structures like CHAs, and be used primarily for higher value items. CHAs are not being removed or changed as part of this patch, and remember you can always anchor multiple PHAs in the same starbase and access them all from anywhere in the shield.

    The Personal Ship Maintenance Array is something we still want to do, but we just didn't have time to get it into Odyssey. I said before, I'm very aware of how helpful it would be to wormholers and we want to make it an iteration on the normal PHA now that we have that structure working and shippable. I can't however promise at this time exactly when we might be able to release a PSMA, as we're still focusing on getting Odyssey as polished as possible.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #607 - 2013-05-17 18:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
    /Phoenix Chants....
    When will it be done...
    When will it be done...
    When will it be done...

    /The Phoenix has nervous breakdown and collapses in his Pod.

    Just wanted to say thanks that your working on this. Its allot when 100,000 people are all screaming at ya to get stuff done yesterday. It ain't easy.

    Thanks Fozzie.

    Maybe a point release.. July.. 2013. Entire month to apply the Personal Corporate Hangar array Code...

    I can live with that.

    Yaay!!!!
    Poetic Stanziel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #608 - 2013-05-17 19:10:45 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    I know it's too late for this release, but I'm gonna try and sneak in some ideas for a later Odyssey patch...

    Can we get a review of Starbase weapons please? Specifically:

    a) Starbase Defense Management is very much a relic of 2007. The UI forces you to control/drop one module at a time (which often takes longer than the enemy needs to run away), and there's no grouping of similar modules. Plus you need at least 15 modules to be effective in a fight which means 3-4 characters with the right roles + skills in the right place at the right time.
    Being able to group up weapons then control 1 group per level of the skill would be a step in the right direction.

    b) Starbase weapons have never been reviewed in line with ship balancing changes. Most still do levels of damage on par with ship hitpoints in 2005. Ewar mods take the best part of a minute to lock many subcaps, during which time the target has easily moved out of range or off-grid. And the less said about Hybrid or Missile weapons the better...

    c) We could really use something that acts as a threat to supercaps. Starbases used to tear up unprepared dreads and carriers, now they just get swept by fighter-bombers in under a minute. Bring back scary neuts or give us a counter to supercarrier tides.

    Pretty please :)


    Considering the cursing I've been hearing from across the room from Veritas whenever his code somehow intersects with starbase weapons, things like grouping may be a fairly involved process. However changes to the attributes of the weapons would be a much smaller project and might be something we can get in as a change to the current system in a later patch.
    It's crazy, but have you all considered a POS revamp? Devote 5 - 7 developers to the task ... and even if it takes three expansion cycles, it doesn't stop until it is done.
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #609 - 2013-05-17 19:17:10 UTC
    Poetic Stanziel wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    I know it's too late for this release, but I'm gonna try and sneak in some ideas for a later Odyssey patch...

    Can we get a review of Starbase weapons please? Specifically:

    a) Starbase Defense Management is very much a relic of 2007. The UI forces you to control/drop one module at a time (which often takes longer than the enemy needs to run away), and there's no grouping of similar modules. Plus you need at least 15 modules to be effective in a fight which means 3-4 characters with the right roles + skills in the right place at the right time.
    Being able to group up weapons then control 1 group per level of the skill would be a step in the right direction.

    b) Starbase weapons have never been reviewed in line with ship balancing changes. Most still do levels of damage on par with ship hitpoints in 2005. Ewar mods take the best part of a minute to lock many subcaps, during which time the target has easily moved out of range or off-grid. And the less said about Hybrid or Missile weapons the better...

    c) We could really use something that acts as a threat to supercaps. Starbases used to tear up unprepared dreads and carriers, now they just get swept by fighter-bombers in under a minute. Bring back scary neuts or give us a counter to supercarrier tides.

    Pretty please :)


    Considering the cursing I've been hearing from across the room from Veritas whenever his code somehow intersects with starbase weapons, things like grouping may be a fairly involved process. However changes to the attributes of the weapons would be a much smaller project and might be something we can get in as a change to the current system in a later patch.
    It's crazy, but have you all considered a POS revamp? Devote 5 - 7 developers to the task ... and even if it takes three expansion cycles, it doesn't stop until it is done.


    They are not ignoring it. It is the large elephant in the room.. the VERY large elephant. They have to completely rewrite the code, create everything brand new, then come up with a migrating scheme to get everything over safely without pissing the populous off.

    Its like having a Zoo, full of animals, and they are rioting (They do not like the zoo). You have to migrate them to a new zoo system.

    Now you can't destroy the zoo and create a new one ontop of it, you'll kill the animals.

    YOu have to build a entirely NEW Zoo, set it up perfectly, and then Migrate over the animals one by one to the new Zoo, and make sure they fit and live. Of course there will be some that won't want to go...

    (Best analogy I could think of at the time).

    They would have to write an entirely new POS system from the ground up. That is equivalent to creating a new game (Basically, they have to write a new Sim City, POS edition, for Eve. Yes its is allot of resources).

    To keep the Animals at least Mildly happy though, they have to go through these intermediate steps (Personal CHA, Personal Ship Maintenance Arrays, Manufacturing role fix), just to keep the roaring elephant at bay long enough to start construction of the New Zoo.

    Yaay!!!!
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #610 - 2013-05-17 19:55:01 UTC
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    YOu have to build a entirely NEW Zoo, set it up perfectly, and then Migrate over the animals one by one to the new Zoo, and make sure they fit and live. Of course there will be some that won't want to go...
    Well, honestly, if a few Devs could write a VR-based, kickass space combat fighter game from scratch in their free time on the weekends, imagine what a few Devs could do with POSes if CCP actually directed them to do so!

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    Mynas Atoch
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #611 - 2013-05-17 19:59:24 UTC
    While you are at it could you double the rate of fire on all pos weapons. I can't remember the last time a dread died to one. A quick fix to make them relevant again pending a real review of them. They haven't been for years.
    Rengerel en Distel
    #612 - 2013-05-17 20:34:23 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey guys, just want to preemptively post here to make sure you all know that no matter what you hear, Personal Hangar Arrays are still in Odyssey. They're on SISI now and they will be hitting TQ on June 4th.

    As for the size concerns, we intend these structures to compliment larger volume shared structures like CHAs, and be used primarily for higher value items. CHAs are not being removed or changed as part of this patch, and remember you can always anchor multiple PHAs in the same starbase and access them all from anywhere in the shield.

    The Personal Ship Maintenance Array is something we still want to do, but we just didn't have time to get it into Odyssey. I said before, I'm very aware of how helpful it would be to wormholers and we want to make it an iteration on the normal PHA now that we have that structure working and shippable. I can't however promise at this time exactly when we might be able to release a PSMA, as we're still focusing on getting Odyssey as polished as possible.


    Perhaps it's just the wormhole group that would find the PHA too small. That's less than 2 ore holds from a retriever. It's only 500 units of P4. If it's just for sleeper loot, then I guess it's fine. If it's anything else, I guess you just have to work with the horrible corp management for roles, and not have many people in your corp.

    Would it be possible to have the fittings tweaked to allow them to fit easier in small or medium towers if the volume can't be increased?

    With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
    Poetic Stanziel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #613 - 2013-05-17 20:57:43 UTC
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    To keep the Animals at least Mildly happy though, they have to go through these intermediate steps (Personal CHA, Personal Ship Maintenance Arrays, Manufacturing role fix), just to keep the roaring elephant at bay long enough to start construction of the New Zoo.
    What they are doing now is mostly time-wasters.

    They are applying band-aids to old fragile code. The code they are writing now cannot be used when the entire system is rewritten (if CCP ever does that.)

    And yes, I know it needs to be rewritten from scratch. Which is why I mentioned the very long development length (three or more expansions). We see no work on POSes in that time period. We'd see it when it was done. And it would take a good long while.
    Edward Perry
    Signs of Life
    #614 - 2013-05-17 21:46:19 UTC
    A short list, but reasonable changes

    I do think there is a huge opportunity to make POS's relevant in Eve again. Hopefully fixing some of these items they will build in more hooks to implement future items.
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #615 - 2013-05-18 00:35:37 UTC
    Rengerel en Distel wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey guys, just want to preemptively post here to make sure you all know that no matter what you hear, Personal Hangar Arrays are still in Odyssey. They're on SISI now and they will be hitting TQ on June 4th.

    As for the size concerns, we intend these structures to compliment larger volume shared structures like CHAs, and be used primarily for higher value items. CHAs are not being removed or changed as part of this patch, and remember you can always anchor multiple PHAs in the same starbase and access them all from anywhere in the shield.

    The Personal Ship Maintenance Array is something we still want to do, but we just didn't have time to get it into Odyssey. I said before, I'm very aware of how helpful it would be to wormholers and we want to make it an iteration on the normal PHA now that we have that structure working and shippable. I can't however promise at this time exactly when we might be able to release a PSMA, as we're still focusing on getting Odyssey as polished as possible.


    Perhaps it's just the wormhole group that would find the PHA too small. That's less than 2 ore holds from a retriever. It's only 500 units of P4. If it's just for sleeper loot, then I guess it's fine. If it's anything else, I guess you just have to work with the horrible corp management for roles, and not have many people in your corp.

    Would it be possible to have the fittings tweaked to allow them to fit easier in small or medium towers if the volume can't be increased?



    The hangers really meant for specific prized item (your faction mods, etc). Bulk items can generally be maintained in the CHA. Ore thefts much harder to manage solely due to the bulk. There's valid issues with roles though we all agree on that.

    Regardless the private sma, the 1 role fix to allow the opening of manufacturing to corps in pos's, and a possible micro freighter would be some great first steps (because right now the deep space transports pretty useless, that's solely a quality of life issue though). Once these things are at least functional, and people can live out of these pos's without second guessing someone "borrowing" their stuff, or boarding their ship and offlining all of their ships equipment because they did not have the skill would be great.

    Yaay!!!!
    xttz
    GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
    Goonswarm Federation
    #616 - 2013-05-18 15:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    I know it's too late for this release, but I'm gonna try and sneak in some ideas for a later Odyssey patch...

    Can we get a review of Starbase weapons please? Specifically:

    a) Starbase Defense Management is very much a relic of 2007. The UI forces you to control/drop one module at a time (which often takes longer than the enemy needs to run away), and there's no grouping of similar modules. Plus you need at least 15 modules to be effective in a fight which means 3-4 characters with the right roles + skills in the right place at the right time.
    Being able to group up weapons then control 1 group per level of the skill would be a step in the right direction.

    Pretty please :)


    Considering the cursing I've been hearing from across the room from Veritas whenever his code somehow intersects with starbase weapons, things like grouping may be a fairly involved process. However changes to the attributes of the weapons would be a much smaller project and might be something we can get in as a change to the current system in a later patch.


    I had a thought on this which may save some headaches...

    How about anyone with Starbase Defense Management 1 (plus the corp role) can control up to 8 modules (corresponding to F1-F8 as with ships). Then for each level of SDM trained, it improvesmodule scan resolution and/or reduces RoF by a certain percentage.
    That would mean single characters could use enough modules to be effective in a fight, and still give an incentive to train the skill higher. We can already boost POS modules with modules like remote tracking links / sensor boosters, so it can't be too hard to buff them in this manner.

    But most importantly, please fix the UI so we can assume/drop control of several modules at once. I'm starting to think CCP are heavily invested in some expensive treatment for repetitive strain injury...
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #617 - 2013-05-18 19:28:25 UTC
    Pos's become somewhat unsiegeable. I don't like saying that I do t like an idea, but Pos gunners is not the most massive issue in eve ATM, cause right now 2 gunners can really fk up a unprepared fleet.

    Yaay!!!!
    xttz
    GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
    Goonswarm Federation
    #618 - 2013-05-18 19:47:18 UTC
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    Pos's become somewhat unsiegeable. I don't like saying that I do t like an idea, but Pos gunners is not the most massive issue in eve ATM, cause right now 2 gunners can really fk up a unprepared fleet.


    I'd argue that 2 gunners absolutely should be ruining an unprepared fleet. The larger issue is that prepared fleets walk all over towers without worry, and this wasn't always the case.
    Loan--Wolf
    Ace's And 8's
    #619 - 2013-05-19 06:02:38 UTC
    i personally think that dropping 4 or 5 pha's in whs as a good thing i know i come across some i am getting my friends to help bash that pos i want to know whats so valuable you have in there i personally don't keep any thing of great value in my pos some t2 gear for pve and pvp a few ships some t2 some not pos is not ment to be a secure fortress in space its a out post to work out of in no mans land you want all this secure space go to null get sov and build a station like its ment to be in the first place

    i foresee a river of tears in big rich corps because the 10 bill in bpos you worked so hard on or that offcer mod you got in a drop you so proudly linked into alliance chat dropped in a pos bash in that securer hanger you was so proud of as for the personal ship hangers same thing don't store a t3 in a pos full of pirates you reap what you sew
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #620 - 2013-05-20 03:27:54 UTC
    xttz wrote:
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    Pos's become somewhat unsiegeable. I don't like saying that I do t like an idea, but Pos gunners is not the most massive issue in eve ATM, cause right now 2 gunners can really fk up a unprepared fleet.


    I'd argue that 2 gunners absolutely should be ruining an unprepared fleet. The larger issue is that prepared fleets walk all over towers without worry, and this wasn't always the case.


    Well your also talking about different ships. A bunch of dreads will mow a tower over. Now years ago this wasn't much of an issue because you would see them coming. Nowadays......

    I suspect more stations going up vs towers. Seems CCP wants to get away in some part from pos's.

    Yaay!!!!