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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2841 - 2013-05-17 14:33:05 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Conflag actually hits considerably harder than multi on any target where EM resistance is higher than thermal(what means most omni tanked armor targets). Void is actually a good ammo on caldari ships with the optimal bonus, since the optimal bonus and the higher optimal of Void give you nearly puls laser ranges. If you do the same with conflag and a optimal bonused amarr hull, it would easily outperform multi crystals and probably gamma for most uses.

Like, oh, wait, the new Apoc? (which also has a tracking speed bonus to help with that nasty tracking hit for conflag?) :D
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#2842 - 2013-05-17 14:33:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
In this game, popularity heavily reflects strength. Especially because the community at large math-hammers out things to the umpteenth degree.

If they were worth using, they'd be used.

That's completely wrong ! Most people playing this game don't care about maths, and even most people posting on these forum don't understand one bit of the maths behind the tracking formula for example ; the best example is all the people believing that your dps is 50% at optimale+falloff (it's 40%), or that you need your target radial velocity to be within your tracking to track it perfectly (tracking have exactly the same curve as falloff after optimale range).

Not to mention fashion effects (fotm) and how discoveries work ; and the time needed for meta to shift and adapt sequencialy.


Now you are just inventing stuff. The simple truth is, Tachyon Beam lasers can't be fit because they are too PG heavy and where they can be fit, they aren't because they have a negative bonus due to other factors like rate of fire and tracking. People don't need to know why the Hellcat doctrine is popular to know the people who created it made the best fit possible. Beams suck. Tach's suck. I don't need a degree in EVE to 'prove' it. They do.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2843 - 2013-05-17 14:35:35 UTC
Quote:
I'm a little confused as to the idea that the Geddon can't mission? I missioned L4s in a Dominix effortlessly, and continue to do so now in my Rattlesnake. I prefer the Rattlesnake for ridiculous shield buffer and torps over Railguns on the Dominix. The only issue with it is drone aggro, but if you have proper drone skills and know what you're doing your drones are pretty much safe.

Especially if you're using sentries, since they'll draw aggro but you can just pull one in at a time and redeploy. Works like a charm. So you can't say the Amarr don't have a L4 option. You can say you don't LIKE the L4 option, but it's there and it works. Though it would be nice to have a gunboat option as well, and it is my personal belief that the Apocalypse fits the role for L4 boat better than the Abaddon. Might just be me, but I'd take the ranged DPS over the tank.


Idk, maybe we've had different experiences with drones in missions. They friggin rats outright primary any drones I have ever put out. But then my drone skills are hardly maxxed out as I imagine yours must be.


Wait, the Apoc beats the Abaddon for L4s? Tell me under what possible circumstances that tracking beats straight up damage bonuses? Especially for missions where the rats are pretty easy to hit. Because the Apoc doesn't help much with it's range bonus, since we are resigned to using pulse anyway, and it's entirely too easy to outrange the rats even without it.

The only real time that tracking yields better damage results over damage bonuses is against a cruiser size hull, and even then only between certain ranges. Damage bonus is always there, against any size target.

It just doesn't add up to why people are crowing about the tracking bonus being so powerful.

Unless you are just looking at it through null glasses where all T3 fleets are a thing, and you have Guardians at your beck and call. Aside from that, there just aren't a lot of situations where it's useful.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2844 - 2013-05-17 14:36:00 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

yea, no.
I tested the Abaddon out for L4s with the changes.
Previously, with slot 6 and slot 8 5% cap implants, it was taking 3 CCC rigs, 3 cap rechargers, and a cap power relay for it to run 2 HS, 2 Imp Nav L reppers, 1 1600 plate, 1 eanm, and 2 mission spec'd energized resist plates, and was only cap stable if either not running 1 repper, or shutting off half it's turrets to be able to run both reppers (which was needed in quite a few sites due to having to rely on drones to kill off scram ships while tanking the incoming DPS which otherwise would have killed it) with BS V giving it 25% resist bonus.
With the changes, while it's gaining 10% less cap draw on the pulses, it's immediately having to give that extra cap up (plus a little more) in exchange for a Reactive Hardner to balance out the resist loss, thus forcing it to keep 3 CCC, 3 Cap Rechargers, and a Cap Power Relay, with the exact same requirements behind keeping it cap stable, but now you may want to split your turret stacks 4/1/3, as if you have to run the dual reps for too long, you'll need to turn off that 5th turret to not shut down from cap loss.


The problem is mostly that you think fitting 2 large reppers, a ton of cap mods and only two heat sinks on a Abaddon would result in a effective L4 BS, or the Abaddon should somehow work with a setup like this. This will cripple any BS in the game, not just Amarr hulls. Putting the setup on the BS with the biggest cap use on purposes seams like you handicap yourself for no particular good reason. If you have issues with your ship fittings, I would look into S&M first to get sorted out.

For reference, I fit it like this and you often can fit a 4. Heat sink instead dual EANM to speed up missions.

[Abaddon, L4]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer

Gist B-Type 100MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Energy Locus Coordinator II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

With ab and rep off, the old Abaddon was stable at 42% cap and the new one is at 47%, about 3.5 cap per second less on my fitting and a hole lot more on yours if you don't fit discharge rigs.

The only thing I can point out here is... there is definately something wrong when a battleship which should be using large reppers is instead making use of what should be a too small of a repper to be workable. Thank you for the suggestion, though. :)

Note, I'm not saying to nerf the deadspace medium repper, I'm simply saying that its use is yet again pointing out a huge and drastic flaw in large reppers.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2845 - 2013-05-17 14:43:39 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:


...oh yes and Oracle pilots because it's a balanced system when an ABC can fit and fire a full rack of Tach's but no BS can without gimping the fit.



More to do with the gun than the ship but so true.

The thing being, the Tach has a purpose. It's a Beam weapon with more range than the Pulse, hits in larger bursts and requires more capacitor to do it. Making it scrazy stupid hard to fit doesn't reflect that role. It just makes the gun useless and as such the role unplayable.

They also work on Paladin and Nightmare but I doubt there are many Tach fit Paladin and Nightmares out there.

Go fly in some incursion fleets, then nightmares are all over the shield fleets, and I've seen quite a few armor fleets using Paladins.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2846 - 2013-05-17 14:45:30 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Did you seriously just suggest an 8 laser capable, full damage bonused drones (even threw the mining yield in there for the lulz, huh? Cuz Domi doesn't get it), with the option of 6 launchers? I'm sorry but this proposal does the Dominix an even greater disservice than the proposed Armageddon does.

It all depends on how bound CCP on keeping Artillery Abaddons in game. (Hard-bound so far, it seems.) If they are not, they could take steps to adjust slots and hardpoints to more appropriate numbers. At any rate, the post was just an idea. Evidently, better one, than what we're getting with Odissey. Okay, you getting. I'm leaving this game shortly after release. And this time not coming back, in a year, or a decade - if there's nothing for me to fly and nothing to do, I don't see, how can I keep subscription up. Seems like a waste of money.
And thanks for noticing that little joke. Appreciate it.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2847 - 2013-05-17 14:53:58 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Yes, the Amarr have Scorch to always fall back on but that's the problem, 99% of Amarr BS's use it and everyone else is training to use them. I don't see Scorch surviving the upcoming laser rebalance (Apoc can take it out to 90km) so that is why I point out the deficiencies in beams so that we're not completely hosed when it happens.
I have an Apoc on SiSi with 8 Tachyons, a MWD, and geared for maximum sniper damage. And that's without any fitting mods, as well. Powergrid is pretty tight (500+ left) considering I can't fit T2 Tachs and I'm sure those would require fitting mods to fit on an Apoc. But they're also better than 425mm Railguns in pretty much every way (as far as my personal tastes are concerned). I haven't trained T2 beams beyond small turrets because just as you said, it's not worth it almost ever when you have Scorch.
[/quote]
I think you just pointed out the flaw in your reasoning. We aren't discussing the fitting of meta 4 Tachs. We are discussing T2s.
And the fitting of T2 Tachs to T1 Amarr BS hulls doesn't happen because it is seriously a sick joke when you have to combine the "slot tax" for cap then throw in the "slot tax" for pg.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2848 - 2013-05-17 15:16:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'm a little confused as to the idea that the Geddon can't mission? I missioned L4s in a Dominix effortlessly, and continue to do so now in my Rattlesnake. I prefer the Rattlesnake for ridiculous shield buffer and torps over Railguns on the Dominix. The only issue with it is drone aggro, but if you have proper drone skills and know what you're doing your drones are pretty much safe.

Especially if you're using sentries, since they'll draw aggro but you can just pull one in at a time and redeploy. Works like a charm. So you can't say the Amarr don't have a L4 option. You can say you don't LIKE the L4 option, but it's there and it works. Though it would be nice to have a gunboat option as well, and it is my personal belief that the Apocalypse fits the role for L4 boat better than the Abaddon. Might just be me, but I'd take the ranged DPS over the tank.


Idk, maybe we've had different experiences with drones in missions. They friggin rats outright primary any drones I have ever put out. But then my drone skills are hardly maxxed out as I imagine yours must be.
I do indeed have drone skills maxed out (aside from Racial specs being to only IV). And I know what you mean about the drone insta-aggro by the AI. For me this mostly occurs when using light drones. That's why I moved to mainly using sentry drones (with 4 DDA IIs a flight of Garde IIs deal 800+ DPS with incredible range) and have had NO problems running level 4s since then.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wait, the Apoc beats the Abaddon for L4s? Tell me under what possible circumstances that tracking beats straight up damage bonuses? Especially for missions where the rats are pretty easy to hit. Because the Apoc doesn't help much with it's range bonus, since we are resigned to using pulse anyway, and it's entirely too easy to outrange the rats even without it.

The only real time that tracking yields better damage results over damage bonuses is against a cruiser size hull, and even then only between certain ranges. Damage bonus is always there, against any size target.

It just doesn't add up to why people are crowing about the tracking bonus being so powerful.

Unless you are just looking at it through null glasses where all T3 fleets are a thing, and you have Guardians at your beck and call. Aside from that, there just aren't a lot of situations where it's useful.

When it comes to missions I'm not looking through Null Glasses, I assure you. And I did say that I would prefer the Apoc for L4s over the Abaddon, as a personal choice. I didn't say it was clearly the better choice.

Save the drones!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2849 - 2013-05-17 15:30:03 UTC
Quote:
I do indeed have drone skills maxed out (aside from Racial specs being to only IV). And I know what you mean about the drone insta-aggro by the AI. For me this mostly occurs when using light drones. That's why I moved to mainly using sentry drones (with 4 DDA IIs a flight of Garde IIs deal 800+ DPS with incredible range) and have had NO problems running level 4s since then.


Pelea Ming actually sent me a PM about this very subject. I've seen it across the realms of drone type, I've even seen them aggro on, and primary, salvage drones.

But as it turns out, I was simply very unaware of what precisely their AI is set to. Apparently, they were just given more or less Sleeper AI. So you can grab aggro on them with a target painter or some such. I will attempt this next time I play.

Anyway...
Quote:

When it comes to missions I'm not looking through Null Glasses, I assure you. And I did say that I would prefer the Apoc for L4s over the Abaddon, as a personal choice. I didn't say it was clearly the better choice.


You actually said that it fits the role better for a L4 boat then the Abaddon. That's the part I took exception to. You might fly one based on personal preference, but it's not the best option.

I also intend to use an Apoc for pve, mostly because I am interested in firing Conflag for the first time in a long while, and the new Apoc kind of makes it feasible to attempt. So probably half and half between an Apoc and an Abaddon.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#2850 - 2013-05-17 15:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Pelea Ming wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Conflag actually hits considerably harder than multi on any target where EM resistance is higher than thermal(what means most omni tanked armor targets). Void is actually a good ammo on caldari ships with the optimal bonus, since the optimal bonus and the higher optimal of Void give you nearly puls laser ranges. If you do the same with conflag and a optimal bonused amarr hull, it would easily outperform multi crystals and probably gamma for most uses.

Like, oh, wait, the new Apoc? (which also has a tracking speed bonus to help with that nasty tracking hit for conflag?) :D


The rokh got 13+10km with void after one TE and one TC(it could be at a lot better spot on optimal). On a Apoc this would produce around 46+10km with max damage ammo, making most faction ammos completely pointless outside of shooting frigs before you swap to scorch and the apoc would out damage the Abaddon as soon as it runs out of conflag range(what would be at around 33+10km). While it would be hilarious, it isn't a desirable thing in the overall balance.

Pelea Ming wrote:

The only thing I can point out here is... there is definately something wrong when a battleship which should be using large reppers is instead making use of what should be a too small of a repper to be workable. Thank you for the suggestion, though. :)

Note, I'm not saying to nerf the deadspace medium repper, I'm simply saying that its use is yet again pointing out a huge and drastic flaw in large reppers.


The reason I use a med repper is that they offer the better cap efficiency of a A-Type mod without spending twice as much on a dead space large repper, that you couldn't use to rep more, since you don't have the cap for it. There is nothing particular wrong with large reps.

I also use a med repper on my Paladin, however the issue there is that you can't fit a large one, if you want to fit tachs, a T2 damage rig and a T1 Locus one. The cap efficiency and less micromanagement are nice bonuses. Tachs are not even easy to fit on a paladin, however given what you would lose to get a large repper in is just not worth the slots or dropping tachs..

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2851 - 2013-05-17 16:10:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Pelea Ming actually sent me a PM about this very subject. I've seen it across the realms of drone type, I've even seen them aggro on, and primary, salvage drones.

But as it turns out, I was simply very unaware of what precisely their AI is set to. Apparently, they were just given more or less Sleeper AI. So you can grab aggro on them with a target painter or some such. I will attempt this next time I play.

Yeah, you can grab aggro by firing, etc. But the AI will switch aggro to drones if deemed threat-worthy. It basically affects you when you use a size-up drone against the ship type, but there are exceptions. The biggest issue I've had is sudden aggro change. I could have aggro, my drones 50km from me, when suddenly half the room starts shooting my drones (and webbing, and scramming) and there's obviously no way it can make it back to me. Sometimes it'll happen 2-4 times in a mission and that's when it really hurts.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:

When it comes to missions I'm not looking through Null Glasses, I assure you. And I did say that I would prefer the Apoc for L4s over the Abaddon, as a personal choice. I didn't say it was clearly the better choice.


You actually said that it fits the role better for a L4 boat then the Abaddon. That's the part I took exception to. You might fly one based on personal preference, but it's not the best option.

I also intend to use an Apoc for pve, mostly because I am interested in firing Conflag for the first time in a long while, and the new Apoc kind of makes it feasible to attempt. So probably half and half between an Apoc and an Abaddon.
Yes, I said it was my personal belief that the Apocalypse fit the role for L4s better. Because I'd rather have the range and tracking instead of the damage buff. (All three would be even better hah) The new Apoc makes Conflag an appealing crystal and was my base of reasoning when I said that. I mean you could use a Hyperion to mission but everyone would laugh at you (pre-tiercide) and I am getting a similar vibe from the Abaddon. I've mostly seen Apocs used for L4s instead of Abaddons as well.

Save the drones!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2852 - 2013-05-17 16:34:26 UTC
Quote:
Yeah, you can grab aggro by firing, etc. But the AI will switch aggro to drones if deemed threat-worthy. It basically affects you when you use a size-up drone against the ship type, but there are exceptions. The biggest issue I've had is sudden aggro change. I could have aggro, my drones 50km from me, when suddenly half the room starts shooting my drones (and webbing, and scramming) and there's obviously no way it can make it back to me. Sometimes it'll happen 2-4 times in a mission and that's when it really hurts.


Yeah, idk, I am still unsure of the whole concept of missioning with drones. Especially given how much T2 sentries and heavies freaking cost. I mission to make money, not burn it. Might try it with a painter, sentries, and a mjd.

Quote:
Yes, I said it was my personal belief that the Apocalypse fit the role for L4s better. Because I'd rather have the range and tracking instead of the damage buff. (All three would be even better hah) The new Apoc makes Conflag an appealing crystal and was my base of reasoning when I said that. I mean you could use a Hyperion to mission but everyone would laugh at you (pre-tiercide) and I am getting a similar vibe from the Abaddon. I've mostly seen Apocs used for L4s instead of Abaddons as well.



The pre-change Hyperion is probably the worst concept ship in the entire game. I chuckle when I see the rare event of someone undocking with one.

Yeah, the Apoc making Conflag viable is what intrigues me most about it. Had it the bay to carry a spare flight of web drones I'd combine the two and see how that works. Still might. But I really think that the Abaddon will be the ship relegated for that purpose. Time will tell I suppose.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2853 - 2013-05-17 16:42:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yeah, idk, I am still unsure of the whole concept of missioning with drones. Especially given how much T2 sentries and heavies freaking cost. I mission to make money, not burn it. Might try it with a painter, sentries, and a mjd.
It's truly an art, quite a different style from normal run 'n gun missioning. The AI changes made it a bit more frustrating but it's still a very effective way to mission.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I said it was my personal belief that the Apocalypse fit the role for L4s better. Because I'd rather have the range and tracking instead of the damage buff. (All three would be even better hah) The new Apoc makes Conflag an appealing crystal and was my base of reasoning when I said that. I mean you could use a Hyperion to mission but everyone would laugh at you (pre-tiercide) and I am getting a similar vibe from the Abaddon. I've mostly seen Apocs used for L4s instead of Abaddons as well.

The pre-change Hyperion is probably the worst concept ship in the entire game. I chuckle when I see the rare event of someone undocking with one.

Yeah, the Apoc making Conflag viable is what intrigues me most about it. Had it the bay to carry a spare flight of web drones I'd combine the two and see how that works. Still might. But I really think that the Abaddon will be the ship relegated for that purpose. Time will tell I suppose.
Yeah.. the poor Hyperion.. it really has been blessed by tiercide (the original proposal made it even worse though). I'm happy about it because it's one of my favorite hulls.

I know some people mission in Abaddon's right now, as it is. So with the cap reduction on lasers, etc. I don't see them stopping just because their base resists are going down a bit. We'll have to see when the changes hit TQ I guess.

Save the drones!
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2854 - 2013-05-17 16:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tank Talbot
ExAstra wrote:


" If a ship can’t sustain the fire of its own guns under burner then there is an issue from my perspective."

So, yes, they are asking for the Abaddon to be cap stable. And I will agree that needing 2 rigs to fire the guns for any decent length of time would be frustrating, and as I've said multiple times I recognize that the Abaddon has capacitor issues. But making the Abaddon cap stable with MWD running is completely ridiculous. Offer it the ability to fire the guns at around ~35% cap stability (before MWD drawback) and wouldn't that be good enough? Give it a scaled up capability comparable to the Maller/Thorax you brought up. Would that be enough for you (alongside the upcoming energy buffs?)


“I" wrote: "If a ship can’t sustain the fire of its own guns under burner then there is an issue from my perspective."

I never wrote anything about operational micro warp drive cap stability. I wrote about operating under burner (after burner.) It consumes roughly half the cap of an active MWD in the Battleship class. Firing its guns and running under burner without running out of cap is mainly a PVE consideration. Actual cap stability refers to being able to fire all weapons and use ALL active modules fitted onto the ship without running out of cap including armor repair modules. I never requested nor has any one requested true cap stability in such case out of the Abaddon or frankly any of these ships.

You have falsely twisted what “I wrote” and used it like a dagger against a large group of people to paint them as somehow stupid and wanting too much. You are using a false argument against true “cap stability" to throw a fit. . It's alright to disagree with me and if you really feel like calling names I guess I am a target. Fine you think "I" am stupid. Don't skew it against everything and one in an effort to prevent better ship balancing for the Amarr. If your real worry is over Gallente ships then go argue over them.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2855 - 2013-05-17 17:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Tank Talbot wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
[

" If a ship can’t sustain the fire of its own guns under burner then there is an issue from my perspective."

So, yes, they are asking for the Abaddon to be cap stable. And I will agree that needing 2 rigs to fire the guns for any decent length of time would be frustrating, and as I've said multiple times I recognize that the Abaddon has capacitor issues. But making the Abaddon cap stable with MWD running is completely ridiculous. Offer it the ability to fire the guns at around ~35% cap stability (before MWD drawback) and wouldn't that be good enough? Give it a scaled up capability comparable to the Maller/Thorax you brought up. Would that be enough for you (alongside the upcoming energy buffs?)


“I" wrote: "If a ship can’t sustain the fire of its own guns under burner then there is an issue from my perspective."

I never wrote anything about operational micro warp drive cap stability. I wrote about operating under burner (after burner.) It consumes roughly half the cap of an active MWD in the Battleship class. Firing its guns and running under burner without running out of cap is mainly a PVE consideration. Actual cap stability refers to being able to fire all weapons and use ALL active modules fitted onto the ship without running out of cap including armor repair modules. I never requested nor has any one requested true cap stability in such case out of the Abaddon or frankly any of these ships.

You have falsely twisted what “I wrote” and used it like a dagger against a large group of people to paint them as somehow stupid and wanting too much. You are using a false argument against true “cap stability" to throw a fit. . It's alright to disagree with me and if you really feel like calling names I guess I am a target. Fine you think "I" am stupid. Don't skew it against everything and one in an effort to prevent better ship balancing for the Amarr. If your real worry is over Gallente ships then go argue over them.

And my original comment (roughly) "I don't see the Abaddon as ship that should ever be cap stable" was met by your comment that you felt it should be able to fire guns with burner, even on a buffer fit Abaddon. My comment compared a MWDing Megathron to a MWDing Abaddon, showing that neither is cap stable. Don't tell me you don't see that as slightly misleading given my comment, especially since you didn't even bother clarifying that you meant Afterburner at that point. I'm not twisting anything. Especially when after my next comments I'm greeted with "The Abaddon needs 2 Elutriation rigs as standard" as the following comment. And I never once called anyone stupid, nor did I "throw a fit".

And you can't expect me to just assume you mean "under burner" to mean "afterburner" specifically when "burning" is a term used extensively to refer to "using a prop mod (which includes MWDs)" and where in PvP the MicroWarp Drive is the more common prop mod, again, my confusion isn't unwarranted at all. And I am aware that cap stability refers to running all modules at the same time, but I don't know of any PvP fit Abaddons that use LARs (and it's not like tackle modules are going to throw its capacitor to the wolves). So when I'm thinking of the concept of Pulse Lasers + MWD + Buffer Fit for PvP and you're thinking Pulse Lasers + AB + Buffer fit (for PvE?), it's pretty clear neither of us were on exactly the same page.

I didn't call anybody names and I have no idea where you're pulling that from, but okay. Although I do have to admit that I wasn't paying attention to names while talking and was incorrectly addressing the phrase to "them" instead of "you". As I stated earlier, based on the responses I got from my post, I was under the impression that it was a commonly held desire.

Save the drones!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2856 - 2013-05-17 17:46:04 UTC
One said burner, both assumed mwd.

AB /= mwd.

Sillies.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2857 - 2013-05-17 18:42:08 UTC
Yep. Got quoted before I could fix it after reading the chart wrong. I'm a newb. What's his excuse? ;)

Now leave me alone. I feel bad. Lol
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2858 - 2013-05-17 21:26:00 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yeah, idk, I am still unsure of the whole concept of missioning with drones. Especially given how much T2 sentries and heavies freaking cost. I mission to make money, not burn it. Might try it with a painter, sentries, and a mjd.
It's truly an art, quite a different style from normal run 'n gun missioning. The AI changes made it a bit more frustrating but it's still a very effective way to mission.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I said it was my personal belief that the Apocalypse fit the role for L4s better. Because I'd rather have the range and tracking instead of the damage buff. (All three would be even better hah) The new Apoc makes Conflag an appealing crystal and was my base of reasoning when I said that. I mean you could use a Hyperion to mission but everyone would laugh at you (pre-tiercide) and I am getting a similar vibe from the Abaddon. I've mostly seen Apocs used for L4s instead of Abaddons as well.

The pre-change Hyperion is probably the worst concept ship in the entire game. I chuckle when I see the rare event of someone undocking with one.

Yeah, the Apoc making Conflag viable is what intrigues me most about it. Had it the bay to carry a spare flight of web drones I'd combine the two and see how that works. Still might. But I really think that the Abaddon will be the ship relegated for that purpose. Time will tell I suppose.
Yeah.. the poor Hyperion.. it really has been blessed by tiercide (the original proposal made it even worse though). I'm happy about it because it's one of my favorite hulls.

I know some people mission in Abaddon's right now, as it is. So with the cap reduction on lasers, etc. I don't see them stopping just because their base resists are going down a bit. We'll have to see when the changes hit TQ I guess.


It's certainly possible but it is far from optimal. Sure, easy L4's are easy with any weapon but try to use drones on Worlds Collide or The Blockade where new waves of elite frigates spawn frequently and at a variety of ranges causing you to have to call your drones back every time or they get blasted. That is too much time lost of your primary dps source to be worth it.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2859 - 2013-05-17 21:35:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Samas Sarum wrote:

It's certainly possible but it is far from optimal. Sure, easy L4's are easy with any weapon but try to use drones on Worlds Collide or The Blockade where new waves of elite frigates spawn frequently and at a variety of ranges causing you to have to call your drones back every time or they get blasted. That is too much time lost of your primary dps source to be worth it.

Um, I know how to use drones in level 4s, and using sentries are not a problem in the two missions you mentioned. Using scout or attack drones isn't ideal on those missions, though, yeah. But you always have to adapt your fittings and strategies depending on the mission.

In fact they can be considered easier in certain instances because so long as you're away from the spawn points the sentries will eat the rats as they hopelessly crawl towards you. Because 700 DPS at over 100km is fine (and even better when you're using cruise missiles-especially after the cruise buff coming)

Save the drones!
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2860 - 2013-05-17 22:05:01 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:

It's certainly possible but it is far from optimal. Sure, easy L4's are easy with any weapon but try to use drones on Worlds Collide or The Blockade where new waves of elite frigates spawn frequently and at a variety of ranges causing you to have to call your drones back every time or they get blasted. That is too much time lost of your primary dps source to be worth it.

Um, I know how to use drones in level 4s, and using sentries are not a problem in the two missions you mentioned. Using scout or attack drones isn't ideal on those missions, though, yeah. But you always have to adapt your fittings and strategies depending on the mission.

In fact they can be considered easier in certain instances because so long as you're away from the spawn points the sentries will eat the rats as they hopelessly crawl towards you. Because 700 DPS at over 100km is fine (and even better when you're using cruise missiles-especially after the cruise buff coming)


Sorry but you're wrong. Drones are impossible on Worlds Collide in both 2nd rooms where you're dropped in the middle of orbiting packs of BS's, cruisers and elite frigates. The Eve Survival page for it explicitly states to not even launch your drones since their orbit is far enough away to immediately aggro different groups. Most of the hard missions are hard for that reason, if every mission dropped you far enough away to sentry down everything then we wouldn't be having this discussion.