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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#1161 - 2013-05-17 03:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
The only good thing about the tempest is the fact that everyone knows it's bad so as a solo pilot you can get some decent fights as people won't horrendously upship to try and kill you. However from a strictly balancing point of view, this is ridiculous. Give it a buff. It's slower than the typhoon (and with large missile changes it will soon also also project/apply damage worse than the typhoon) and is outtanked/dpsed by the maelstrom. The bonuses need a serious rethinking. Give it a 7.5% damage bonus and either a fall-off bonus or a tracking bonus so that it can fulfil maybe an anti-support/sniper role. A slight agility/speed buff would also be needed (and I do mean slight, don't overdo it and turn it into a mini machariel).
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1162 - 2013-05-17 07:27:08 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I like the 7-6-6 slot layout idea. I would increase the drone bay to 125/125 to give the ship the extra oomph it needs. The reason why is as follows-

As it stands right now - the Maelstrom has 10.66 effective turrets. The Tempest has 10 effective turrets and two unbonused launchers. If you fit for pure gank (two torp launchers) the Tempest can do slightly more damage. That advantage is lost though once you pull drone bays into the equation. Shield gank Tempest vs gank Mael with close range faction - 1141 DPS to 1131 DPS. That is not worth a BC level Micky Mouse tank to achieve. If you armor tank the Tempest using five of the low slots- pretty normal fare- your DPS drops to 901 as you only can fit one Gyro.

Increasing the drone bay by 50 would give the Tempest about 100 more DPS. This would be offset a bit by the loss of one of the launcher slots (about 50 DPS) going to a mid. The shield Tempest would get 1150-1200 DPS depending on neut vs launcher. The shield Tempest would have a better tank as well. The armor tempest would get 900- 950 DPS based on same question but would also have six mids to play with.

The Tempests' bonuses are fine.

or just nerf the mael
like 5% rof bonus to 4% would be in line with rokh/abaddon nerf
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1163 - 2013-05-17 07:32:30 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

or just nerf the mael
like 5% rof bonus to 4% would be in line with rokh/abaddon nerf


"not sure if troll.....

[insert picture of Fry here]

.... or just verry verry stupid"
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1164 - 2013-05-17 07:42:56 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

or just nerf the mael
like 5% rof bonus to 4% would be in line with rokh/abaddon nerf


"not sure if troll.....

[insert picture of Fry here]

.... or just verry verry stupid"


I cant see why nerfing the mael is not the best sollution here, you are arguing that the tempest is bad cause the mael is better--> make the mael little weaker ,could be done easily, It is the only tier3 bs doesnt get a change ,so do it.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1165 - 2013-05-17 07:48:10 UTC
Don't feed the troll.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1166 - 2013-05-17 07:49:33 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Don't feed the troll.

stfu whinematard
your tempest is so op
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1167 - 2013-05-17 08:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Naomi Knight wrote:

or just nerf the mael
like 5% rof bonus to 4% would be in line with rokh/abaddon nerf


Naomi Knight wrote:


I cant see why nerfing the mael is not the best sollution here, you are arguing that the tempest is bad cause the mael is better--> make the mael little weaker ,could be done easily, It is the only tier3 bs doesnt get a change ,so do it.


ok ovious troll.... but for all who cant see the troll:

argueing to nerf a ship because others got nerfed is the highes lvl of ignorance i can imagine
because it assumes that ships were on the same powerlvl before the rebalanceing
what would make a rebalance atempt the most useles thing to do....
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1168 - 2013-05-17 08:11:32 UTC
Don't forget that Rate of Fire Bonus isn't the same as Resistance Bonus, and that resistance bonuses got nerfed for completely different reasons - namely, they where too strong compared to active tanking bonuses. And the Maelstrom isn't popular because of DPS, it's popular because of alpha, tanking and ehp. You should be embarrassed if you took the trolls suggestion seriously.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1169 - 2013-05-17 12:14:51 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Don't forget that Rate of Fire Bonus isn't the same as Resistance Bonus, and that resistance bonuses got nerfed for completely different reasons - namely, they where too strong compared to active tanking bonuses. And the Maelstrom isn't popular because of DPS, it's popular because of alpha, tanking and ehp. You should be embarrassed if you took the trolls suggestion seriously.

lets see , lowering rof wouldnt change its alpha ,tanking or ehp --> so it would be still as popular as now
but the tempest would be the primary turret dps ship for winmatar-->what you wanted
I cant see whats wrong with that.
much better than to overboost the tempest into a "does everything better than the other races" ship
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1170 - 2013-05-17 13:06:41 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Don't forget that Rate of Fire Bonus isn't the same as Resistance Bonus, and that resistance bonuses got nerfed for completely different reasons - namely, they where too strong compared to active tanking bonuses. And the Maelstrom isn't popular because of DPS, it's popular because of alpha, tanking and ehp. You should be embarrassed if you took the trolls suggestion seriously.

lets see , lowering rof wouldnt change its alpha ,tanking or ehp --> so it would be still as popular as now
but the tempest would be the primary turret dps ship for winmatar-->what you wanted
I cant see whats wrong with that.
much better than to overboost the tempest into a "does everything better than the other races" ship


No it would reduce its DPS and hurt the option to use it as an AC gun boat. Or are you trying to say that 900 dps is too much for you?

this is clearly anti-minmatar propaganda, now I love amarr ships as much as I like minmatar so I'll say that lasers need to be more inline with the other turret platforms.
drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1171 - 2013-05-17 14:32:12 UTC
If tracking enhancers get nerfed then Tempest will be totally useless in the suggested form (as opposed to just bad). Definitely needs a little more dps to stay competitive (shield vexor has nearly as much). The "oversized cane" role was never practical as it was too slow and required a cap booster to run mwd for a significant amount of time.

Large AC's may just need a dps buff, they don't really scale well relative to other bs's. Medium AC's are balanced (though everything else got buffed..) due to the great mobile platforms like vaga, cane, sleipnir. Also the capless aspect becomes less useful since most need a cap booster anyway (amarr to use guns, gallente to use mwd).
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1172 - 2013-05-17 15:11:17 UTC
drake duka wrote:
If tracking enhancers get nerfed then Tempest will be totally useless in the suggested form (as opposed to just bad). Definitely needs a little more dps to stay competitive (shield vexor has nearly as much). The "oversized cane" role was never practical as it was too slow and required a cap booster to run mwd for a significant amount of time.

Large AC's may just need a dps buff, they don't really scale well relative to other bs's. Medium AC's are balanced (though everything else got buffed..) due to the great mobile platforms like vaga, cane, sleipnir. Also the capless aspect becomes less useful since most need a cap booster anyway (amarr to use guns, gallente to use mwd).



Large AC dps is OK. THe problemis that the tempest has less low slots to fit damage mods and less drones than its competition. That results in a final HUGE DPS difference.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1173 - 2013-05-17 15:41:09 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
drake duka wrote:
If tracking enhancers get nerfed then Tempest will be totally useless in the suggested form (as opposed to just bad). Definitely needs a little more dps to stay competitive (shield vexor has nearly as much). The "oversized cane" role was never practical as it was too slow and required a cap booster to run mwd for a significant amount of time.

Large AC's may just need a dps buff, they don't really scale well relative to other bs's. Medium AC's are balanced (though everything else got buffed..) due to the great mobile platforms like vaga, cane, sleipnir. Also the capless aspect becomes less useful since most need a cap booster anyway (amarr to use guns, gallente to use mwd).



Large AC dps is OK. THe problemis that the tempest has less low slots to fit damage mods and less drones than its competition. That results in a final HUGE DPS difference.


i see the problem in the dps distribution over its range profile at large acs.

at longpointragen blasterboats are just so much better and the dps edge outside longpoint is useless :-(
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1174 - 2013-05-17 16:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Hi guys

We're making a couple small changes for the Tempest and the Typhoon, I'm telling you about them!

For the Tempest, when we said it was going to be Minmatar's second attack ship instead of combat, we moved the stats to somewhere inbetween for some reason. So now I'm going to finish the job.

Tempest:
  • 127 Max velocity (+7)
  • .119 Agility (-.001)

  • 6800 Shield hp (-200)
  • 7000 Amor hp (-300)

    • This means the Tempest will still have more base hitpoints than it does currently on TQ, and it will also have slightly above average hp for an attack battleship, which we feel is warranted by being a little weaker in some other respects. In trade, it now goes much faster. With one nano and no implants or links, it goes 1251m/sec. It will feel a lot like a sort of 'heavy battlecruiser' for many purposes. I hope this direction is fun and rewarding and makes the ship stand out.

    For the Typhoon, we are making smaller changes.

  • 6 Turret slots (+1)
  • 100600000 mass, (-3000000)

    • It didn't make a lot of sense to have 5 turrets and 6 launchers, especially when the Navy version is 6/6. The mass change is minor but it brings the mass a little closer to its attack BS bretheren.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    @ccp_rise
    Drunken Bum
    #1175 - 2013-05-17 16:07:50 UTC
    Tempest still sucks. Give it tracking or falloff instead 2 damage bonuses. Its not gonna be flown.

    After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    #1176 - 2013-05-17 16:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
    @Rise

    any chance you could look into a slot and bonus change on the pest, gearing it more towards a shield ac or armor arti platform? As it stands it is to much in between both roles, without doing one particular well(if you consider what other BS could do).

    Considering the high speeds of the mega, hype, raven and to some degree apoc, the pest doesn't particular stand out as a very fast BS any more. However while more speed is nice, I think making it more focused towards a more defined role will be better overall.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1177 - 2013-05-17 16:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
    christ for attack battleships the tempest and phoon still have high mass surely they should have one of the lowest mass stats.
    This just looks like a nerf to the tempest really +7 velocity is nothing on a battleship

    Tempest
    -7-6-6
    -5% falloff 5% ROF
    -98100100 mass
    -75/100 mb dronebay

    something like this would make more sense and people might want to fly it of course it is rather similar to the tornado with same bonuses and all but then ABC's should be made T2 and follow HAC line as it should have been when it was brought in.

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Pattern Clarc
    Citeregis
    #1178 - 2013-05-17 16:27:35 UTC
    Navy Hurricane.... Or Tempest......


    /o\

    Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
    Rebecha Pucontis
    Doomheim
    #1179 - 2013-05-17 16:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Tempest:
  • 127 Max velocity (+7)
  • .119 Agility (-.001)

  • 6800 Shield hp (-200)
  • 7000 Amor hp (-300)

    • Good changes there. I was predicting this change as like you say it is a halfway house between combat and attack at the moment, so it is good to see it actually confirmed. It would be nice to see a little extra dps though. Even with that boost to stats, it still feels the Tempest is a little lacking. Extra dps or a combined damage bonus along with a falloff bonus would be a good way to go. Will try it out in Odyssey anyway and hopefully you can make any further changes if they are needed.

    The Typhoon change seems a little strange though. It is nice to use turrets on it, but it seems those extra 6 turret slots are a little odd and more of a relic from its pre tiericide state. It would be nice to see two unbonused turrets on the Typhoon and then 5 launchers with the damage bonuses tweaked so that it is delivering equal amount of damage as it is now with 6. 1 lone turret just seems a little strange, particularly when you have 6 turret hardpoints.
    Kane Fenris
    NWP
    #1180 - 2013-05-17 17:06:44 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hi guys

    We're making a couple small changes for the Tempest and the Typhoon, I'm telling you about them!

    For the Tempest, when we said it was going to be Minmatar's second attack ship instead of combat, we moved the stats to somewhere inbetween for some reason. So now I'm going to finish the job.

    Tempest:
  • 127 Max velocity (+7)
  • .119 Agility (-.001)

  • 6800 Shield hp (-200)
  • 7000 Amor hp (-300)

    • This means the Tempest will still have more base hitpoints than it does currently on TQ, and it will also have slightly above average hp for an attack battleship, which we feel is warranted by being a little weaker in some other respects. In trade, it now goes much faster. With one nano and no implants or links, it goes 1251m/sec. It will feel a lot like a sort of 'heavy battlecruiser' for many purposes. I hope this direction is fun and rewarding and makes the ship stand out.

    For the Typhoon, we are making smaller changes.

  • 6 Turret slots (+1)
  • 100600000 mass, (-3000000)

    • It didn't make a lot of sense to have 5 turrets and 6 launchers, especially when the Navy version is 6/6. The mass change is minor but it brings the mass a little closer to its attack BS bretheren.

    Thanks for the feedback!



    mass on tempest still to high... and dps little to low hp about right