Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So after 140 pages only thing that has been changed is apoc cap recharge and noting else?! Seems you can really tell by the length of the BS balance threads what race is most broken.... Rise, is there a chance for a bonus change on amarr ships? (especially in the cap/tank department) Can you clearly say what CCP plans with amarr race in general. Let's simplify things and say minmatar ships are the fastest, caldari ships do constant dps at great range, gallente close range face melters, active armor tankers, amarr buffer/rez?

What niche is left for Abaddon?

yea, no.
I tested the Abaddon out for L4s with the changes.
Previously, with slot 6 and slot 8 5% cap implants, it was taking 3 CCC rigs, 3 cap rechargers, and a cap power relay for it to run 2 HS, 2 Imp Nav L reppers, 1 1600 plate, 1 eanm, and 2 mission spec'd energized resist plates, and was only cap stable if either not running 1 repper, or shutting off half it's turrets to be able to run both reppers (which was needed in quite a few sites due to having to rely on drones to kill off scram ships while tanking the incoming DPS which otherwise would have killed it) with BS V giving it 25% resist bonus.
With the changes, while it's gaining 10% less cap draw on the pulses, it's immediately having to give that extra cap up (plus a little more) in exchange for a Reactive Hardner to balance out the resist loss, thus forcing it to keep 3 CCC, 3 Cap Rechargers, and a Cap Power Relay, with the exact same requirements behind keeping it cap stable, but now you may want to split your turret stacks 4/1/3, as if you have to run the dual reps for too long, you'll need to turn off that 5th turret to not shut down from cap loss.

Obviously it is fitting other races weapon systems or spending most time of the fight slowboating from one wreck to another and looking for cap boosters.

The problem is mostly that you think fitting 2 large reppers, a ton of cap mods and only two heat sinks on a Abaddon would result in a effective L4 BS, or the Abaddon should somehow work with a setup like this. This will cripple any BS in the game, not just Amarr hulls. Putting the setup on the BS with the biggest cap use on purposes seams like you handicap yourself for no particular good reason. If you have issues with your ship fittings, I would look into S&M first to get sorted out.

For reference, I fit it like this and you often can fit a 4. Heat sink instead dual EANM to speed up missions.

[Abaddon, L4]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer

Gist B-Type 100MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Energy Locus Coordinator II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

With ab and rep off, the old Abaddon was stable at 42% cap and the new one is at 47%, about 3.5 cap per second less on my fitting and a hole lot more on yours if you don't fit discharge rigs.

Where there is ample smoke their is ample fire. I think you are being too flippant in dismissing player upset so readily as whines and crying. Just because you don’t yet personally see the issues as having merit doesn’t make them wrong. I do think however getting to the heart of the matter is hard with so much smoke.

The fact you want to divide ships into PVE or PVP usage so readily is an issue in viewpoint that I feel will put you at odds with far too many other players and their desires for play. You can’t balance a ship entirely around one or the other without ruining the game for some one. I preferred it when ships where balanced around a combat method and against each other be it close range, long range, general combat, logistics, probing, or EWAR, with players then encouraged to “go find their own game use” for the ship be it a PVE or PVP activity. The racial differences in ship philosophy provided enough spice that they never felt homogenized and the various hulls useful for a variety of tasks. That’s not true anymore and they have a right to be angry when so many play styles have been affected.

Your comments regarding the Naval Armageddon help exemplify this issue. It has been shoved into “a smaller niche that’s too well defined” rather than balanced around an improved combat role. The huge signature radius will limit it to a usage outside of blobs (where its too easily sniped) and push it into solo (like missioning) and small gang activities where the drone bay and sustainable cap will be of immense benefit. Remove the sig and drone bay it starts to lose its niche.

You see, in order to meet their (CCP’s) stated design objective (Original Post) in the battleship rebalance and make sure that each race has a ship to fill a role their focus on narrow, more defined “niches" has required them to abandon making Naval versions improvements of their T1 counterparts because they can’t fill those missing roles otherwise. If they had stuck to designing around combat method for lack of better terms everyone could have been satisfied more readily and Naval hulls continued in the tradition of just improvements.

The hand tried to be too sweeping perhaps in this revision. I can’t help but worry that might be a bad thing on the larger scale in time.

The laser weapon issue is bigger than this thread and the core problems larger than just fitting. A simple change such as adding some variety and equal value to the secondary damage type perhaps with degrading stock crystals could keep laser weapons useful in combat doctrines in a age of play where resistance fittings too easily render them useless to the point of seeing them abandoned. Abaddon pilots should never prefer artillery. Just fitting EM / Therm resists alone resists ships should never trump an entire ship line up and their weapon of choice when everyone else in the galaxy can just change ammo.

For pulse lasers they are too slow to get in range and too short to hit from distance. No one uses Hellcats these days, they are replaced with Foxcats. And considering a nerf to resistance bonus - it's even worse.
Artillery on amarr ship... I know it works, but it's very clumsy - 200 DPS on a battleship is a waste of battleship.
So looks like the mega beams are the only viable choice now. It could be much better with tachyons though, but yet it works more or less fine.

You realize the Gallente are stuck with Thermic/Kinetic right? Also Amarr get way better T2 armor resists than Gallente =\

However, I partially agree with the rest of your points. Lasers need small touch ups, though I think the new fitting requirements are a huge step in the right direction. Capacitor is mostly fine, lasers also get the benefit of instant range changes and the most glorious ammo, Scorch.

The Abaddon should never be cap stable, in my opinion. As for the Apocalypse, from what I've played around in it on SiSi I've enjoyed it very fondly. The tracking bonus makes it quite a bit better at the shorter ranges, although this IS slightly an odd choice considering the ranges it prefers to engage at with its optimal range bonus.

I think the "new breed" of Amarr drone pilots are going to really appreciate the new Armageddon though, for what it's worth that the older Armageddon pilots are losing.

To be fair, 99% of Amarr in PvP will be using Scorch which is almost entirely EM damage while it's my understanding Gallente have a good mix of Kin/Therm.

Also I will never call the laser capacitor's "mostly fine" as long as Mega-Beams take the same amount of cap as Tachyon's which is 300% that of Rails given their relative popularity in the current metagame and performance with each other. As long as this is the case, no one will touch beams over Scorch. I trust CCP Rise realizes this and will consider it in their upcoming rebalance. As soon as the Napoc can take Scorch out to 90+km I think the laser rebalance will come even sooner.

I will admit I wasn't aware that Mega Beams had the same cap requirements as Tachyons. Tachyons are way nicer for sniping though, imo. Railguns are kind of incredibly lame and most agree on that.

You are correct that hybrids mix thermic/kinetic fairly evenly (55/45 or 50/50 depending on ammo) but your comment about "every other race gets to pick damage types" is baloney because Gallente and Caldari (minus missile boats) can't. Which means a vast amount of ships in the game can't do it.