Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Who said a cap bonus for lasers was usless? I said it was ********/broken/OP and asking for the single defining aspect of what makes energy weapons hard to use whilst all so piously complaining about the Galentification of Amarr via-vi the Geddon was pathetic. This also ignores the reduction in fittings and other aspects that make up for the inconvenience of actually having to worry about capacitor issues.

The Geddon as a drone boat will always have several advantages over the new phoon, especially (if you bother to carry more than one type of drones that is) the ability to apply heavy damage to frigs, cruisers and battleships, and whilst you might not think 45km neuts is a big deal, been able to **** up anyone trying to stay out of that range, whilst, unlike the domi, actually having the power grid to fit more than 3 heavy neuts is damn useful. Most of the people actually on sisi like the geddon so I'm going to leave this circus of a thread until something changes.

Sure, I busted his balls a little hard with a wordy hammer (and obviously succeeded), but he set himself up for it the moment he began calling everyone whom he disagreed with just stupid while failing to explain his own view point on the issues adequately for consideration. I like the Tornado model too but cheap antics breed cheap in turn so forgive me that.

Since battleships are used in small ganks now. Low sec is full of them. And while we are at it, in what situation exactly would the neut range bonus prove "OMG op op op nurf plox". That bonus sucks on this ship.



So it lost a lot of cap and a lot of tank, a rig slot but it gained 7 max speed so its a buff? The old Apocalypse would wipe the floor with new one. Its a fact. Dont know based on what exactly are you even pushing this further. It got some use over Abaddon because of the price and a good capacitor, now it is absolutely overshadowed in every possible way. "You cant have everything" - what exactly i have in this ship?



Tempest can even now break 90k ehp shield tanked, and is getting buffed. Dying to see your 300k ehp Apocalypse fit. Use officer mods if you need. And if you want to be precise it will outdamage it by 11,1% at 30km. And it has two utility slots and no cap or fitting issues whatsoever. And also dont forget Apocalypse now has only two rigs, one is reserved for discharge elutriation.

Wow, Did you really just count the same person 3 times? Impressive. Those where all the people who responded.

ou Pattern . Do you realize how silly all of this counting looks, but ok from your screenshot 6 people participated 4 said - yes; 2 said - no. There were 146 people in local so when you said "most of the people on sisi" did you mean 4 out of 146 people that were in 6-CZ or did you mean 4 out of 230 that are now on sisi in general.

About have actually tried, yeah sure. I didn't even log on sisi and things that I wrote on Test Server Feedback are all from youtube videos.


Some people in gallente thread said that and I quote
"Well, the Hyp is still crap." or "The rebalanced Hyperion is sub-par, imo."
or some other people said
"..full out drone boat on the domi ( and i like the new 2nd bonus a lot)..."
or my favorite
"Dominix - Perfect, this is exactly what I think the domi should do, unfortunately, you are making it more fleet-orientated in my opinion, but I may be proven wrong."
so yes, people say a lot of stuff.


Yes, thank you! Exactly, that is one of the problems.

I wasn't actually linking him to the goons as much as "lightly" bashing the mentioned ship based on its prominent use in a tapped event we are all familiar with that inevitably (if unfairly) colors how it's viewed. Yes, the Armageddon of old crushed a lot of opposition through the years and was not an unpopular ship. Don't get me started on its loss. It's not something we are liable to see changed and I don't want to cry over it in posts.

Remaining Abaddon doctrines being Arty Abaddons used by PL primarily I believe. Easier to armor fit and better tank than Maels I guess. Though I do agree with your point on beams, their PG and cap is completely broken.

Lets try to get back on message in this thread instead of bickering back and forth. I'd like to summarize all the outstanding questions for CCP Rise or CCP Fozzie or whoever still cares how the Amarr players feel:

1) Why do Mega-beams use the same (within 5%) of the same obnoxious cap draw as the Tachyon? Their relative performance with tach's or even 1400's and 425 rails don't bear out this drawback.

2) If the Apoc is supposed to use beams (per CCP Rise's description) why did it not receive any meaningful boost to PG and lost overall cap? The difference in PG/cap between beams and pulses (beams and pretty much any weapon for that matter) is ridiculous but the Apoc has the exact same PG as the brawler/pulse fit Abaddon.

3) Why the tracking bonus on the Apoc? If it's supposed to use beams and it's range bonus then why does it need tracking? As someone did the math earlier in the thread, you still won't be able to hit frigates and the only target you will now be able to better hit is a perfect transversal cruiser. This seems very situational to me. There have been suggestions on how to fix this (e.g. drop to 6 turrets and give a damage bonus instead).

3) The changes in the Large Energy Weapon thread were a step in the right direction but not nearly enough. We all agree that pulses are fine and are pretty much your only option at the BS level and the new changes didn't really open up any new fits. For beams the current fits are extremely tight and still require a PG and cap booster mod by default with the new changes. What is the logic behind a all Level 5 skilled Apoc or Abaddon still not being able to fit a full rack of Mega-beams, a MWD, and either a lg Cap Booster or lg Repper without a PG fitting mod (plus the 3-4 cap mods required by all beam users)? No other race's hulls are this tight on fitting with their 2nd best weapons and the only weapon as tight at all are the 1400's which don't need any help being popular given the current metagame.

The Amarr desperately need a low-SP entry level and missioning hull and when even the all Level 5 skilled beam fits require a PG and 3-4 cap mods by default and still aren't stable for more than 4-5 minutes, it doesn't give players any choice but to wait the couple months and just fit Scorch like everyone else.

Hi guys I like the spirit of this claim: "Lets try to get back on message in this thread instead of bickering back and forth. I'd like to summarize all the outstanding questions for CCP Rise or CCP Fozzie or whoever still cares how the Amarr players feel", so I'm going to respond to this point by point, and then maybe I can try and hit some other points after.



I think the answer to this question is that beams (and possibly energy weapons as a whole) need to be visited with a full balance pass. This is not a problem that should get fixed through ship design, it should get addressed through a weapon system rebalance. As we are now finishing up balancing most of the 'core' ships in the game we will be looking to add more module balancing and I would think weapon systems would be near the top of the list.



The Apoc is not "supposed" to use beams. I don't really know how you took that from my description which says "It is also getting an increase to power grid and CPU so that beams are a more viable option in the future." All I meant to say was that we increased fitting while lowering PG need for beams and so hopefully it would be more viable now than before. We know beams still need work on their own, as I said above.



First of all, again, it isn't "supposed" to use beams. Even if it was, you really think increased tracking will never be relevant? As for why tracking in general, I think there's a lot of reasons. Its makes the Apoc stand apart from the other two Amarr battleships in a very distinct and interesting way. It provides a niche for the Apoc in multiple environments. It offers a strong option to counter some of the most popular ships in PVP meta right now (attack BC and Tech 3 cruisers). It gives players who want to use Amarr battleships in smaller groups at closer ranges a new tool. It fits the idea of the attack role well. On and on.



I'm glad you like them. I think they will be one part of the approach to working on energy weapons, and working directly on beams will be the other part.


Overall most of the concerns here seem related to cap or more specifically, beams. I think the changes to cap use will deal with the first part well enough until we can look at beams as a system sometime in the near future.

The Armageddon/Dominix debate seems to remain heated, but I think its a really good sign that there's people arguing both sides so passionately, and we'll just have to see how it shakes out once it goes live.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep reading. And as I've said before, we will watch all of these after they go to TQ and make changes if things aren't working out well for a certain ship or race.

Thank you for the response CCP Rise, most appreciated. If you have some extra time do you mind responding to the PG fitting concerns I raised with the Apoc and Abaddon? Is it intended that non-Level 5 or mission runners not have an option in this lineup? Pulses aren't viable until you train Scorch and a Geddon drone boat really isn't viable for missions. With the PG fittings it almost forces Amarr to buffer tank which is fine for fleets and PvP but not for mission runners.

The cap issues are one thing but the PG fittings of beams really need to be looked at more than just 10% reduced. You have to be level 5 to even think about fitting them and even then they still require a PG mod with almost any viable PvP or PvE fit. This is a tradeoff almost exclusive to Amarr that I feel doesn't get compensated for and especially hurts less than Level 5 pilots. It is doubly concerning for mission runners since almost no beam fit is cap stable without severely gimping it outside of acceptable Level 4 mission range. These pilots tend to be less than Level 5 so they take it on the chin with PG as well as cap. A non-Scorch cap stable (at least nearly) mission running fit would really be appreciated instead of being shoehorned into Scorch and buffer tanking.

That's why we proposed dropping the Apoc to 6 turrets and a damage bonus (which would still set it apart from the Abaddon as being friendly to missions and non-Level 5 players). The tracking bonus still seems situational to me and as niche as the Geddon's neut bonus, so having 2 niche pvp ships seems a little unfair compared to other race's lineups and options for non-fleet, non-Level 5 players. The Gallente got all their 8-turerts setups reduced to 6 or 7 within a couple days of posting and it would be nice if the Amarr had a non-8 turret option. Having the least cap-friendly race have both their dps BS's be 8-turret cap suckers seems like a cruel joke when their overall cap isn't compensated enough for this.

I would agree with Avald on the issue of 8vs6 turrets.. it makes sense on the abbadon only though but i think the abbadon with this setup would work well i posted something similar in the thread.

H-M-L
7-4-8...... 6 turrets ....1 launcher

10% damage bonus
4% armour resist

it may be less than the damage output of 8 but at least you can fire them for long periods of time combined with a utility for a Nos.
Some damage could be returned via a 100/125mb drone capacity with its lack of tracking a set of smalls would make sense like the Hyperion has similar setup that would work well here aswell as the extra low.
And with fitting increases and cap increases you could use a megabeam - armour rep setup.
Also amarr should have an 8 low battleship especially since the mega has you really should have stuck with the shield mega.