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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1061 - 2013-05-10 23:19:18 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
And after testing the phoon on sisi, even with crap cpu, holy **** what an amazing ship to fly. The Tempest is a joke. I do a better job kitting with a domi (lol at 700 dps gardes @56km optimal)

Slot layout or not, I agree with you the Tempest definitely needs improvements on its ability to kite. If CCP deem a slot layout change to enable this then that is better than nothing, but I'd rather see it by altering its base stats than changing slot layout and can't see them changing the layout myself at this point.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1062 - 2013-05-10 23:30:03 UTC
It almost certainly needs both a slot layout and bonus change. Given the navy BC's and the new price tag, CCP Rises bigger hurricane nonsense has never seemed more out of touch.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1063 - 2013-05-10 23:52:39 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
CCP Rises bigger hurricane nonsense has never seemed more out of touch.

Hmm. I don't dislike the idea of it being the successor to the hurricane personally, and think Rise is on the right track. But agree, it needs to be much better at kiting with autos and artillery as that is the only role I can see which it fits into now, and right now it isn't doing it that well.

I wonder what it would have looked like if it had been originally an attack BS as is now. To me the transition from combat to attack hasn't been completed properly and its been left somewhere half way in between.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1064 - 2013-05-11 00:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Kitting with auto's is dumb in the land of fast ravens spewing 600-700 dps worth of 10km/s cruise missiles out to practically infinity. I mean, what's the point of doing half that dps at only 40-50km? Or a third that dps with armour?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1065 - 2013-05-11 01:33:19 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Kitting with auto's is dumb in the land of fast ravens spewing 600-700 dps worth of 10km/s cruise missiles out to practically infinity. I mean, what's the point of doing half that dps at only 40-50km? Or a third that dps with armour?

That is why the Tempest needs buff, and Ideally a damage buff so it can compete. Also I'm sure Autos will put out more damage than a Raven with cruise missiles surely. I haven't tested it but if that is true then that is well and truly broken.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1066 - 2013-05-11 03:08:07 UTC
I managed to hop onto the test server the past couple of days. They Typhoon is very nice:

High:
Torpedo II x 6
Heavy Unstable Fluctuator
Mid:
100MN Prototype MWD
Medium Cap Booster II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor x 2
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
1600mm II x 3
1600mm Rolled Tungsten
EANM II
ANP II
DC II
Rigs:
Trimarks x 3

With four Ogres it does 800 DPS before overheating and has a massive buffer tank. It will still get up to 1km/s.

The only Tempest Fit I found that I liked used a LAAR and a LAR2. It would rep 980 DPS and put out 900 DPS as well. It has a bit more projection and speed then the Hyperion. It definitely was a low sec toy though.
Jalmon
Trauma Ward
#1067 - 2013-05-11 04:11:20 UTC
Tub Chil wrote:
so typhoon had:

8 high slots
5 launchers
5 turrets
5 heavy drones

you could fit it as missile boat with 3x neuts, or as a projectile boat with 3x neuts
while doing additional 300+ DPS with drones.

you didn't HAVE to have missiles and projectiles and drone skills to be good with phoon.

you could fit it with great tank or gank or neut platform, whatever you wanted.
It is called VERSATILITY

now it is a standard grey ship capable for only 1 role.
drone damage is gone, ability to fit autocanons is gone, ability to be a neut platform is gone.

why.



Confirming the typhoon is losing the best reasons to fly it.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1068 - 2013-05-11 21:02:15 UTC
Abandon all hope all ye enter here.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Solhild
Doomheim
#1069 - 2013-05-12 06:57:41 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Abandon all hope all ye enter here.


Well it's clear that you lot seem to know what you're talking about.

It looks like the fleet tempest will be the interesting one but will probably be unviable owing to ridiculous cost.

Please keep fighting the good fight.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1070 - 2013-05-12 09:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
The tempest is a great MJD-tackler, which is the only thing I found it good for so far. Sadly the cruiseraven is equally good or better at that :( aswell as the domi...

Someone plesae award that tempest with a distinctive trait at last \o/
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#1071 - 2013-05-12 09:43:51 UTC
Tempest won't be a survivor if you leave it as is and all the other battleships get un-tiered.

Give it a slight speed buff please.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1072 - 2013-05-12 16:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I
The only Tempest Fit I found that I liked used a LAAR and a LAR2. It would rep 980 DPS and put out 900 DPS as well. It has a bit more projection and speed then the Hyperion. It definitely was a low sec toy though.

With a dual rep tank I can fit very little in the 2 high slots, medium smart bombs or heavy missiles, even then I often run out of cpu.

With 3 damage mods, you have 640 turret dps with barrage. That's not much at any range these days:

With Hail it's almost 900 dps with 3+18km but compare that with the phoon - almost 790 dps with fury missiles, with 100km range. And that's with cruise missiles, and not including drones -

Ugh


I'm kinda disposed to the idea of the tempest being a mini-nagflar with 5 turrets and a 7.5% damage bonus now - it'll have 2 spare highs and 6 mids and 6 lows. Give it +200 cpu and +3000 grid leaving us free to fit it however we like.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies
#1073 - 2013-05-13 01:01:27 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I
The only Tempest Fit I found that I liked used a LAAR and a LAR2. It would rep 980 DPS and put out 900 DPS as well. It has a bit more projection and speed then the Hyperion. It definitely was a low sec toy though.

With a dual rep tank I can fit very little in the 2 high slots, medium smart bombs or heavy missiles, even then I often run out of cpu.

With 3 damage mods, you have 640 turret dps with barrage. That's not much at any range these days:

With Hail it's almost 900 dps with 3+18km but compare that with the phoon - almost 790 dps with fury missiles, with 100km range. And that's with cruise missiles, and not including drones -

Ugh


I'm kinda disposed to the idea of the tempest being a mini-nagflar with 5 turrets and a 7.5% damage bonus now - it'll have 2 spare highs and 6 mids and 6 lows. Give it +200 cpu and +3000 grid leaving us free to fit it however we like.



Been reading through this thread and the state of the Tempest does not seem to be in good shape at all like it is now, reading about the Cruise Missile changes makes me think that they might be too powerful.

I think the biggest problem the Tempest has is that in a shield role people want to make it perform similarly to a Hurricane, but to do that it starts to compete with the Tornado. (Personally I think Tier 3 BCs being able to fit close range weapons interfere too much with other ship classes, cruisers, hacks and even BS, testified by their proliferation, though I doubt people will accept them only being able to Long Range weapon turrets.)

To make it good it would need more speed and then either a falloff bonus or a hefty damage bonus (which would be difficult to balance) it would also start stepping into Machariel territory. (Which is due for a nerf probably.)

So to give it a role it needs something unique, but what that should be isn't exactly clear but I have some crazy ideas that perhaps could be brainstormed further...:

Make it possible to fit a capital turret on it: This could produce some hilarious results, double alpha of current Maelstrom but half ROF. Tracking is terrible anyways and it would cement it in the niche of "capital ganking" it already has, but its other applications might either be too underwhelming or too overpowered. (Low tracking high DPS (2000ish) at 40km in a cheap hull is not healthy to infrastructure...)

Give it a giant speed bonus when using ABs (1-1.2 k m/s)... not exactly sure of the application or consequences of this but I suspect it would be OP as hell.

Ridiculously short cool down for MJDs, and then give it a bomb launcher... this could become the source of some epic hilarity but could turn it into something truly terrifying and fun in the classic wheelchair uzi fashion.

Web Strength bonus? -80% speed instead of -60% with a small range bonus 2-3% per level, though this would make the ship way too dangerous to smaller ship classes, though thinking about this on a fleet level is intriguing...

Go in the direction of the classic SFI with active armor tanking, agility, tracking and signature as traits but that seems to niche and does not fit a BS hull well, though it would be interesting to see what a Tempest with good mobility and a large tracking bonus would be capable of if it wouldn't be doomed to become a roaming ship that would never be used in a fleet scenario.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1074 - 2013-05-13 02:48:25 UTC
1) The first Tempest active tank I tried had capacitor issues even with capless weapons and a heavy cap booster. One Heavy Neut was enough to shut it down fast. As the Tempest had zero room for fitting a second cap booster I was left scratching my head a bit. I finally tried this VERY unorthodox fit on SISI:

High:
Dual 650mm II x 6
Upgraded Malkuth Torpedo Launcher x 2
Mid:
100MN Prototype MWD
Heavy Cap Booster II
Large Cap Battery II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Faint Warp Disruptor
Low:
LAR II
Gyro II
Adaptive Nano Plating II x 2 (would use Coreli C-Type on TQ)
DC II
LAAR
Rigs:
Large Auxilliary Nano Pump x 2
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell

Drones - Ogre II x 2, Hammerhead II x 2, Hob II

Stats:
7108 Capacitor with Neut resistance. 901 DPS w/o implants. Overheats to 1000 DPS. (961 DPS to 1077 DPS with damage implants) 942 DPS tank for a minute and sixteen seconds.

With this fit I killed a Maelstrom. I beat the snot out of a fleet issue Typhoon - he escaped with a MJD. I took a Vindicator to 25% armor. I was beat by two different Hyperions. The ship is really on the razor's edge of balance IMHO. The DPS is just shy of what it needs to be to be truly competitive. I run around TQ with a 905 surgical strike and a 1005 projectile damage implant - most people don't. A 125/125 drone bay would really make the ship. (The Typhoon is advertised as 100/100 but it's actually 100/125 on the test server.)
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1075 - 2013-05-13 02:52:57 UTC
Fleet Tempest attempt:

High:
1400mm II x 6
Cruise Launcher II x 6
Mid:
MWD or MJD
Sensor Booster II x 2
TC II x 2
Low:
Gyro II x 2
DC II
EANM II
1600mm Plate II
Rigs:
Ancillary Current Router x 2
Explosive Armor Rig
Kellath Eladrel
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1076 - 2013-05-13 04:40:42 UTC
Jalmon wrote:
Tub Chil wrote:
so typhoon had:

8 high slots
5 launchers
5 turrets
5 heavy drones

you could fit it as missile boat with 3x neuts, or as a projectile boat with 3x neuts
while doing additional 300+ DPS with drones.

you didn't HAVE to have missiles and projectiles and drone skills to be good with phoon.

you could fit it with great tank or gank or neut platform, whatever you wanted.
It is called VERSATILITY

now it is a standard grey ship capable for only 1 role.
drone damage is gone, ability to fit autocanons is gone, ability to be a neut platform is gone.

why.



Confirming the typhoon is losing the best reasons to fly it.


It is a great loss. I am sure CCP will defend their "roles" system to the bitter end, maybe it's easier for new players or for balance reasons or whatever. Maybe people will jump for joy at the raw dps increase. All I know is that they are actively removing fun from the game every time they force players away from choice and creativity and into more and more predefined boxes. The Typhoon was my favorite ship and the reason I was proud to be Minmatar. I spent more time, and had more fun, coming up with fits in EFT than I probably spent flying it. Neuts, point blank torp massive damage, sentries, artillery, speed.

The tiers were broken, no doubt. But the answer is not to replace them with perfectly balanced cookie cutter ships. It should have been to create more options, to create a wider variety of ship platforms. Maybe it would have been more work, and more exploitable, but it would have been more fun. They took the easy way out.

Five card stud, nothing wild, and the sky's the limit.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1077 - 2013-05-13 05:58:38 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
(The Typhoon is advertised as 100/100 but it's actually 100/125 on the test server.)


\o/
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1078 - 2013-05-13 09:03:17 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
(The Typhoon is advertised as 100/100 but it's actually 100/125 on the test server.)


\o/


Indeed that makes a lot of difference. Can anyone check speed an mass of all minmatar BS to see if they are exact matches?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1079 - 2013-05-13 09:56:31 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
(The Typhoon is advertised as 100/100 but it's actually 100/125 on the test server.)


\o/

just hope they dont "fix" it when it goes live on tq
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1080 - 2013-05-13 10:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Hey guys, sorry for the time between posts. I've been reading plenty and working on final touches as the feedback from sisi starts to trickle in.

A couple small things I can say for sure - the Typhoon being 100/125 is intentional, I'm not sure why it was written up differently in the thread, but I've fixed it now, sorry for that. When the Tempest got re-billed as 'attack' we really only went part way with it, and I think we need to finish the job by speeding it up a bit more to make it really stand out in that role. I'm not sure exactly which numbers will be changing, but I'll let you know soon.

I also want to say that I'm listening to what you guys have to say about the Typhoon, but I really believe this new version is still going to offer more versatility than your average battleship, while also becoming 'better' in most variations, as well as providing a clear progression for Minmatar players who have focused on missiles. I'm hearing from sisi that people are enjoying it a lot, and it was even popular in the SCL yesterday, which is a good sign I think.

@ccp_rise