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new idea... alternative fuel rig
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Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#1 - 2013-05-07 15:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon or hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-05-07 16:03:25 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon for hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)


I think this is a really damn neat idea. It would probably break the economy in some way I don't understand though.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2013-05-07 16:28:39 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon for hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)


meh.... I'm not really a fan of this idea. I think the market plays a role in balancing ships, and cost of operation is a major source of that. Since it takes up a rig slot (which is valuable for many other things), this isn't horribly unbalanced.

I'd much rather have rigs that increase the fuel bay...
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-05-07 16:39:31 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon for hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)


meh.... I'm not really a fan of this idea. I think the market plays a role in balancing ships, and cost of operation is a major source of that. Since it takes up a rig slot (which is valuable for many other things), this isn't horribly unbalanced.

I'd much rather have rigs that increase the fuel bay...


The thing I like about it is that it potentially answers that complaint/problem brought up in answer to the upcoming Odyssey Ice changes: "How can nullsec powers supply themselves locally"
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2013-05-07 16:42:13 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon for hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)


meh.... I'm not really a fan of this idea. I think the market plays a role in balancing ships, and cost of operation is a major source of that. Since it takes up a rig slot (which is valuable for many other things), this isn't horribly unbalanced.

I'd much rather have rigs that increase the fuel bay...


The thing I like about it is that it potentially answers that complaint/problem brought up in answer to the upcoming Odyssey Ice changes: "How can nullsec powers supply themselves locally"


True.... but it "could" also devalue the need fuel blockades (ice interdictions) that occur. And I think those are awesome events that should become more effective, not less. I think part of the reason for the ice changes is to purposely make some space more valuable than others, and this change diminishes that to a limited extent (I say limited because I'm not sure how much this will truly change things.)
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-05-07 16:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Thorm
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon for hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)


meh.... I'm not really a fan of this idea. I think the market plays a role in balancing ships, and cost of operation is a major source of that. Since it takes up a rig slot (which is valuable for many other things), this isn't horribly unbalanced.

I'd much rather have rigs that increase the fuel bay...


The thing I like about it is that it potentially answers that complaint/problem brought up in answer to the upcoming Odyssey Ice changes: "How can nullsec powers supply themselves locally"


True.... but it "could" also devalue the need fuel blockades (ice interdictions) that occur. And I think those are awesome events that should become more effective, not less. I think part of the reason for the ice changes is to purposely make some space more valuable than others, and this change diminishes that to a limited extent (I say limited because I'm not sure how much this will truly change things.)


That's a really good point. On the other hand, it could also encourage more aggressive behavior if the blockade type actions stop working, and I'm always all for having more industrial-type targets for people to fight over.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#7 - 2013-05-07 17:07:39 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon for hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)


Interesting idea.

I guess the drawback could be decreased fuel mileage. 30% increase in fuel used for all fuels not of the specified type.
Navigation Rigging skill could decrease the amount to 20% at max level.
Id even support slightly higher numbers than that.

Ill keep an eye on this thread.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#8 - 2013-05-07 17:08:47 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
True.... but it "could" also devalue the need fuel blockades (ice interdictions) that occur. And I think those are awesome events that should become more effective, not less. I think part of the reason for the ice changes is to purposely make some space more valuable than others, and this change diminishes that to a limited extent (I say limited because I'm not sure how much this will truly change things.)

As Xavier already said, you make a good point here.

That being said, I believe the game is better served if the fleet battles or other events occur, rather than be forfeited or otherwise avoided due to logistic issues.

It is a brilliant strategy to shut down opposition by starving them of needed resources.
Unfortunately it reduces the gameplay to just the events leading up to the interdiction, and we get to imagine how the battle might have been otherwise.

I vote for things going boom, so I think the fuel rig is a good idea.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#9 - 2013-05-07 20:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
how about a rig for cap ships (and BLOPS) which will allow them the ability to change from one fuel source to another?

i can drop helium in my archon for hydrogen or whatever.

after all, rigs are modification slots and we do this in cars today...

(run cooking oil instead of deisel, or bio fuel...)


meh.... I'm not really a fan of this idea. I think the market plays a role in balancing ships, and cost of operation is a major source of that. Since it takes up a rig slot (which is valuable for many other things), this isn't horribly unbalanced.

I'd much rather have rigs that increase the fuel bay...


how can a rig slot horribly unbalance things? i loose resistance, armor, shield or any number of things by giving up a rig slot. especially on BLOPS where they only have 2 to begin with.

there is no "unbalancing" here. we can go to the belts in null sec, mine our own ice (which is what we are supposed to do in the first place) and carry on about our business.

if anything, it weakens the ship by loosing a rig slot.
and i do like the idea of it costing more fuel (as propane does when you switch to it).
that could be a draw back. there is nothing unbalancing about this. it doesnt add any more power, just allows it to opperate in enemy lands at a reduced power level (less one rig slot) and a reduced fuel capability.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#10 - 2013-05-08 09:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Carniflex
I quite like this idea.

Also, please introduce single rigslot to jump freighters which is restricted to certain list of rigs (well, basically anything other than cargo expander ones i guess).

Considering that capitals will have capital class rigs in the next expansion this would mean that you do not easily switch out that rig at a whim. If needed you can make the material needs sufficently exotic and not only confined to using salvage stuff. You would need 2 versions of the rig - Large and Capital as I'm not aware of any smaller ship class which is capable of using the jump drive.

Mole Guy wrote:

and i do like the idea of it costing more fuel (as propane does when you switch to it).


The increased fuel consumption could be the rig penatly. Anything which feels balanced enough. 2% per level, 10% per level, whatever. It would be nice, however, if at level 5 for that rig you would end up at the same fuel consumption as when using the racial fuel type.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#11 - 2013-05-08 13:48:07 UTC
thats what i would prefer, but to give up some fuel mileage for flex capabilities is something i would be willing to do.. =)
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-05-08 13:52:45 UTC
surely a more sensible approach would be a system similar to alchemy where the isotopes can be reacted or separated to create the other types.

doing it wouldn't be particularly efficient, but givens an alternative when you are in the wrong region for you ship and doesn't result in the need to completely gimp your fit.
The problem with using a rig slot for doing this, is that it will end up with certain caps and blops fairly OP compared to their peers dependent on the region your in.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#13 - 2013-05-08 14:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
i am failing to wrap my head around how you guys think a ship can be over powered?
2 redeemers, tanked to fight. one drops a rig slot (gimping his tank) and adds alternative fuel.

redeemer 1 has more power, the only difference is they use different gas to run it.
redeemer 2 has either less tank or less gank or whatever but can use local fuel. its cheeper for me to run it simply because i can mine my own fuel, but it isnt as effective as redeemer 1 since it lost something with the rig slot.

where in this scenario are you finding OP?

redeemer 1 has the option to use the same rig if they choose, or they can choose to keep their tank in tact.

if i wanna keep my carrier or rorqual in null sec and use it to transport goods around, i should be able to switch fuels and use whats there. there are tons of alternative fuel kits even now for modern or older cars.

rock buggies switch to propane because it doesnt matter what angle you try to run your vehicle, it will still run (even when it rolls over). a supervisor here at the mine added a hydrogen generator to his truck. it gave it a lil more power, but now he has a secondary source of fuel to maintain.
people run E85 and gas (FLEX Fuel), propane and gas, hydrogen, bio fuel, deisel, cooking oil.

a friend i worked with had a saab turbo deisel. he switched to used cooking oil and ran for 3 years back and forth to work for free. only 1 down side was, when it ran, everyone smelled french fries and ate their lunches before they got to work. car was sold and they put another 2 hundred thousand on it when last spotted.

this is dropping the power level of a ship in favor of a lil more utility. so not OP...if anything, its UP.


the only thing i can figure is, you are ice miners and just trolling. if not, please tell me how this can be OP. no one has given a logical reason.
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-05-08 14:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: monkfish2345
Mole Guy wrote:
i am failing to wrap my head around how you guys think a ship can be over powered?
2 redeemers, tanked to fight. one drops a rig slot (gimping his tank) and adds alternative fuel.

redeemer 1 has more power, the only difference is they use different gas to run it.
redeemer 2 has either less tank or less gank or whatever but can use local fuel. its cheeper for me to run it simply because i can mine my own fuel, but it isnt as effective as redeemer 1 since it lost something with the rig slot.

where in this scenario are you finding OP?

redeemer 1 has the option to use the same rig if they choose, or they can choose to keep their tank in tact.

if i wanna keep my carrier or rorqual in null sec and use it to transport goods around, i should be able to switch fuels and use whats there. there are tons of alternative fuel kits even now for modern or older cars.

rock buggies switch to propane because it doesnt matter what angle you try to run your vehicle, it will still run (even when it rolls over). a supervisor here at the mine added a hydrogen generator to his truck. it gave it a lil more power, but now he has a secondary source of fuel to maintain.
people run E85 and gas (FLEX Fuel), propane and gas, hydrogen, bio fuel, deisel, cooking oil.

a friend i worked with had a saab turbo deisel. he switched to used cooking oil and ran for 3 years back and forth to work for free. only 1 down side was, when it ran, everyone smelled french fries and ate their lunches before they got to work. car was sold and they put another 2 hundred thousand on it when last spotted.

this is dropping the power level of a ship in favor of a lil more utility. so not OP...if anything, its UP.


the only thing i can figure is, you are ice miners and just trolling. if not, please tell me how this can be OP. no one has given a logical reason.


the problem is people will always choose more power over less expense as when it comes to combat unless the rig is saving you more than the value of the ship, the trade off if not worthwhile.

but in the region that suits the ship you are flying you will get the best of both worlds and thus be overpowered compared to ships of the same class from the different races.

for example, a Panther in or around curse would be more effective than a widow because the widow has to choose between rigging to reduce fuel costs or have higher expense to maintain the capabilities of the ship. The Panther does not. this means that in that area, the Panther is the best ship to choose. equally in stain/delve etc a redeemer would be preferable.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#15 - 2013-05-08 17:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
so nerfing a ship makes it over powered?
that goes against all logic.

you said that people always choose more power. so the ship that runs the alternative fuel is underpowered, just a bit more flexible.

you guys are contradicting yourselves.

if i wanna gimp my ship fit, its my choice, you shouldnt gripe that you now become more powerful than i am. thats just weird.

if i wanna take my new truck and paint it camo, you shouldnt tell me i cant because it devalues the truck over all. if i wanna take the same truck and switch it to a propane system, you should have anything to say about it because propane gives about 2% less power.
but, now i have the ability to take my truck off in the mountains elk hunting because i can hide it and it can run at any angles or altitude without any adjustments to the carburetor for altitude/cold or any other tweaks i might have to make.

your truck is prettier and faster (more powerful than mine), but mine is more useful (to me).

what are you griping about?

again, you contradict yourselves.

if i am reading your argument correctly, you are saying that if i gimp my ship, yours will become OP and i shouldnt be allowed to do that. so, if i take my redeemer and put large cargo rigs on it and gimp it, yours became OP and i shouldnt be allowed to do that?

weird.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#16 - 2013-05-10 07:26:22 UTC
is this all the support the idea gets?

c'mon now..=)

i think its kewl as hell..=)
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#17 - 2013-05-10 07:38:11 UTC
Hell yes.

I want my hot drops fueled by BioDiesel, distilled from the ground-up, frozen corpses of my dead ship crews.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#18 - 2013-05-10 07:41:16 UTC
hahahahaha
nice..
i once heard an eve story where a girl asked a guy if he would marry her and his reply was, "when you fill a freighter full of corps's" so she started paying for them (since u can only have so many of one item in your cargo).
i never heard the end of the story, but this would put a new twist on requesting dead bodies...=)
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-05-10 08:30:19 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
so nerfing a ship makes it over powered?
that goes against all logic.

you said that people always choose more power. so the ship that runs the alternative fuel is underpowered, just a bit more flexible.

you guys are contradicting yourselves.

if i wanna gimp my ship fit, its my choice, you shouldnt gripe that you now become more powerful than i am. thats just weird.

if i wanna take my new truck and paint it camo, you shouldnt tell me i cant because it devalues the truck over all. if i wanna take the same truck and switch it to a propane system, you should have anything to say about it because propane gives about 2% less power.
but, now i have the ability to take my truck off in the mountains elk hunting because i can hide it and it can run at any angles or altitude without any adjustments to the carburetor for altitude/cold or any other tweaks i might have to make.

your truck is prettier and faster (more powerful than mine), but mine is more useful (to me).

what are you griping about?

again, you contradict yourselves.

if i am reading your argument correctly, you are saying that if i gimp my ship, yours will become OP and i shouldnt be allowed to do that. so, if i take my redeemer and put large cargo rigs on it and gimp it, yours became OP and i shouldnt be allowed to do that?

weird.


to follow your analogy, what i am saying is you can make all those changes to your truck, but there is already another truck that can do what you want equally as well without any modification.

your welcome to do it if you like, but it doesn't really make any sense.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#20 - 2013-05-10 09:00:36 UTC
Dear CCP: Please add that "Add Bounty" button to the forums, as well as a "dislike" button.

Dear OP: Please remember to bring enough fuel for your trip and enough ISK to pay for extra if the need should arise.

This would absolutely have an effect on the economy and should be considered more carefully than by simply saying "because I can add a propane cylinder to my truck". Moreover, last time I checked did not see your truck available for purchase on TQ's market nor did I see any contracts for it.
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