Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Cap boosters and MWDs are "pve considerations"? The Mega and Hype can fit significantly more of what they need without making a tradeoff, that is a fact given the current fitting numbers for the Amarr. Not being able to fit a MWD + Repper or MWD + Cap Booster without a PG mod with even Mega-beams is completely broken.

no, they shouldn't be made similar, that would be homogenization. Each weapon's particular strengths and weaknesses are meant to stand on their own. You'll notice that I have never said that Beams themselves should use less cap per se, though I have agreed that the PG requirements on Tach's are overboard. The APoc at the current proposed stats at max skills will be just as cap stable with the current laser bandaid as it was before, so I've also never said anything about it's cap.

My only issue is and has always been with the Abaddon, as far as Amarr Racial BS, and that only in the fact that for solo/small fleet PvP and PvE in general it is being made even more broken then it ever was, we're pretty much being told "use it in blobs or go home."

PvP with beams and an armor repper ? Seriously ?

Besides, medium cap booster, if not ideal, work fine to run the ship. Just stop requesting to be able to fit everything. Yes, the Abaddon is restricted in its fitting and not supposed to fit an armor repper easily, because that's what gallente ships are supposed to do better. That's why gallente ships have the room for the repper, but believe it or not, that's more of a hindrance than a blessing. Whatever you can say about the Hyperion or Megathron, the Abaddon is far better than them for fleet fights, by such a large margin I shouldn't even be reminding it to someone talking about BS balance.

Abaddon is designed for fleet combat. Hyperion is designed for small gang combat.

But seriously, how could you want beam and armor repper for a pvp ship ?! That's completely stupid !

Though, the Abaddon can fit pulse, armor repper and large cap booster just fine, without any trouble, and that will be even easier with odyssey.

Stop pretending talking about pvp when you are not please.

Man, just stop being clueless. When was the last time you saw arties on an Abaddon ?

BTW, the Abaddon work fine for non blob pvp.

Mind you, most situation you need a BS in pvp don't require your ship to hit farther than 60km, and pulse hit that far already, and obsolete everything else bellow this range. The Abaddon already have one of the broadest range of superiority in the game, that's why t's one of the best BS in the game. Stop pretending amarr BS are bad, that's a LIE !

They are not ideal for mission running : granted. But in no way they could be called "bad".

And to end these mission complaints : if you are looking for a good mission ship, a T1 ship will NEVER EVER be good enough compared to a faction ship. So the grind may be a little longer for a laser junky to get a shiny ship, but that's mostly irrelevant to balance.

My personal issues with proposed changes, in no particular order:
* Randomly shuffling hulls and roles, because you don't understand the problem, which tiericide supposed to not turn into a different problem, but actually fix, is stupid.
* Radically changing ships, that are pretty much balanced already, only in need of a few small tweaks, buffed powergrid/CPU/cap regen - plain stupid.
* Armageddon and Apocalypse is a two iconic Amarr ships. Changing their roles is a great disservice to community.
* Armageddon with neut/NOS bonus doesn't fit Amarr storyline. It's a Blood Raiders thing, not Amarr. Throwing ten years of backstory, lore, novels out of the window will lead to community disappointment at the very least.
* We already have T1 sucker ship in the battleship line. That's an argument separate from lore perspective.
* The +RoF main bonus of Armageddon is more appropriate for Attack BS, than the Abaddon's +Dmg - it is better balanced with leveling, doesn't change your damage, only shift it towards initial burst. Which, I believe, creates an interesting diversity in ship fittings throughout the path from Amarr BS I to Amarr BS V. While flat +Dmg bonus is just a boring power creep, which CCP proclaimed to be against. Not seems like they are holding their word very tight.
* Apocalypse can be debated back and forth, as long as it's range bonus is there. I'll just mention it here for completeness.
* Abaddon doesn't even LOOK like it can swoop around, on MWD or angel's wings - it's just a gold(not even gold anymore, since they changed to these "shaders", it's just bland sandstone color) brick. For it's defence, I can only say that it, apparently, have launch bays, which other Amarr BS seems to be lacking. Also, overall "fat" look suggests enough internal space to store vast amount of drones.
* The argument that "we can't change the Abaddon, as it's most used Amarr ship" doesn't cause anything, but a burst of laughter. Most used Amarr ship is Armageddon (average 100 hulls a day traded), Apocalypse (30) and Abaddon (40) numbers combined can't compete with Armageddon alone.

Bottom line of these changes: Russia, year 1917, October, 26'th. "We will destroy everything, no matter the cost. What then? We'll see. But first, we'll destroy."

Something more middle ground would work better for everyone. Like this.

Armageddon
Attack BS, 7/4/8, 6T, 50/75 (50/100 ?) drones
5% RoF increase
5% Tracking
You hardly do more damage with increased RoF, more DPS - yes, but you'll have to sacrifice mobility and/or tank to consistently provide that much DPS. Which, IMO, balancing one against another.
RoF bonus can be higher, depends on the final numbers of laser cap use, though you get more capacitor spent with each 0.1% RoF increase, which could balance it roughly equal.
With 50mbit drones - the idea is to have ability to sport a flight of meds, while having at least some backup/variety up her sleeve, to help with the brawl.
Some tech pron: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3876/armageddon2013.png (Lasers cap usage changes taken into account)
Notice, how boring the damage bonus looks.

Apocalypse
Combat BS, 8/3/7, 8T
10% optimal bonus
5% damage bonus
Balance PG around 6 tachyons or full rack of megabeams.
Then 7 lows will go for the preferered mix of tank, gank, and stat mods.
Though, Scorch issue needs to be resolved first. It's a shame, that pulse crystal takes on the work of beams in sniping.

Abaddon
Combat BS, 8/4/6, 8T, 6L, 125/XXX drones
Slightly better capacitor regen, than of the previous two.
+10% to drone damage, hit points and mining yield per level
+4% to armor resistances per level
The "Drone combat" BS (with Domi being attack one).
I think, this one speaks for herself. But just in case you didn't noticed, you may still use lasers (though, unbonused), or you may prefer to fit launchers and have a few utility slots for cap games.
Yes, indirectly, it is the same cap warfare, that has been proposed for Armageddon before, but it doesn't step on Bhaalgorn toes, and maintain the general Amarr line in spirit.
Lower amount of lows is partially compensated by innate resists bonus.

If capacitor consumption/recharge rate is fixed to a bearable levels, RoF will create, as you put it, an "interesting" playfield. Increased RoF shift your damage into a short burst. Basically, you reaching the Alpha effect without actually doing more damage.

Seriously, just get out. You don't get to call other people out on credentials when you consistently fail to produce any yourself.

I actually do PVP against battleships, and with battleships. I can tell you I have seen arty Abaddons pretty recently (as in within the last 2-3 months).

T2 crystals are more volatile, than faction, and pulses eat them faster, than beams.
You won't drive very far on stating the obvious.
Also, bringing a low-level catch-all training ships or specialized T2 ships into T1 battleship discussion is at the very least unfair. At most: stupid.

As a rookie pilot, developing a skill plan that will allow me to not only sit a battleship but fly it well, the proposed changes to the Amarr line up are worrisome. Should I have started with a differing race for faster access to better ships for L4 and PVP brawls? I am being pushed into skilling a longer time than other racial pilots in my position for less pay off due to cap and fitting needs. Even with good fitting skills, aside from the Armageddon, I will have to sacrifice combat effectiveness for cap gear in slots other pilots will not (regardless of stability.)

Re-balancing laser weapons from small to large with significant reductions to cap requirements could solve many and perhaps even most issues. However, it’s not something you can “get to” six months after releasing the re-balanced battleships as you kill them in the now. To me, the very idea that players are wanting to fit Abaddon with artillery is indicative of a larger problem than just the ship bonuses. NO patriot of Amarr should be be required to bring farty poop sticks rather than holy fire to divine battle for want of capacitor... Please fix this.

I think the Armageddon is a potentially interesting ship as proposed and that the Apocalypse can be saved with laser re-balancing. I am actually concerned about the Abaddon remaining as is. In my mind it is counterproductive to the objectives in re-balancing and tiericide to simply further hammer it into the niche of being only worthy of consideration as a null sec fleet ship. It needs some tweaking and added versatility to be considered a worthy alternative to the new and improved Gallente Hyperion, Caldari Raven, or even that Minmatar rust bucket.

On paper, to my eye, the Hyperion in particular appears to be a better ship investment for a starting pilot for ANY ROLE than the current proposed Amarr line up because you can do more with it well for less investment from start. I worry that I am skilling for a larger bait Maller or just a null blob unit rather than something I can go do FW, small gangs, PVE or what have you well with.

For the Abaddon, if you re-balance laser cap demands, drop a high slot for a medium, up the damage bonus, and improve the drone bandwidth and bay you would be looking at a more competitive ship for the investment that would have potential roles outside blobs too like the other race ships in its class. Sure the Hyperion would be a bit better in gangs and the Abaddon a bit better for fleets but they would both feel like competitive frames worthy of skilling “months” for.

PL regularly run Arty Abaddon fleets with great success. That's why I laugh when people cry about keeping Amarr beam fittings obnoxious because omg lasers do more paper dps out to such and such range and have better tracking, and yet there are fleet doctrines that give up the 25% laser bonus and go with arties instead which have the poorest dps of LR guns. Apparently beams aren't that OP that they're willing to give up a PG mod and fit tach's even with remote cap because few people are. So yea lets keep their fittings impossibly inflexible like no other race, it's working great just seeing them on Nightmares and Oracles while every other Amarr is relegated to Scorch and buffer tanking, who needs actual choices.