Player Features and Ideas Discussion

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Some people have been re-requesting comparison analysis between the fitting difficulties or lack thereof of the 4 races. Below are a comparison of each races ship that is most likely to use long range weapons (in my opinion) with the % PG and CPU used by fitting a full rack of weapons along with their cap use per second while firing. The data is all using level 5 skills and the new large energy weapon changes. The Tech 2 version of each weapon is used.

Ship(PG, CPU)
Abaddon (26250, 700)
Maelstrom (26250, 800)
Rokh (18750, 975)
Hyperion (20000, 750)

Weapon (PG, CPU, Cap / Sec)
Duel Heavy (1559.25, 35.25, 3.9)
Mega (2895.75, 43.5, 5.8)
Tach (3341.25, 47.25, 6.1)

1200 (2722.5, 33, 0)
1400 (3217.5, 35.25, 0)

Duel 250 (1039.5, 43.5, 1.8)
350 (1559.7, 47.25, 2.1)
425 (2079, 55.5, 2.2)

NOTE: Notice the cap per second differences at all levels

Now for the comparison. Each entry will have 2 values, one is the % hull of PG to fit a full rack, the other is the % CPU to fit a full rack.

Weapon (% PG, % CPU)

Abaddon
Duel Heavy (47.5%, 40.3%)
Mega Beams (88.3%, 49.7%)
Tachyon (102%, 54%)

Maelstrom
1200 (83%,33%)
1400 (98.1%, 35.25%)

Rokh
Duel 250(44.4%, 35.7%)
350 (66.5%, 38.8%)
425 (88.7%, 45.5%)

Hyperion
Duel 250 (31.2%, 34.8%)
350 (46.8%, 37.8%)
425 (62.4%, 44.4%)

Feel free to draw your own conclusions but I will include mine here....

I don't think it's hard to argue that Amarr have it the toughest by far (keep in mind the cap per second as well). You might say, look at the Maelstrom it's getting close on PG too, but it can be actively shield tanked hence the increased CPU, while the Amarr need what little PG they have left to fit a tank and MWD (if they have any cap left). This comparison also points out how out of whack the fitting and cap use is for beams relative to their performance against the other weapons at all levels.

I like to come at it from a low-SP, mission runner, small scale PVP point of view so i will leave the large fleet PVP to someone else, but these numbers are insane for the Amarr compared to the relative easy of which it is to fit (and fire) the Rokh and Hyperion (and Mael to a lesser extent). A low skill Amarr pilot will have WAY WAY WAY more trouble fitting than the other races and will have to make significant tradeoffs with his fit that other races just won't have to make at low SP.

CCP Rise or Fozzie, what is the reason for the obnoxious jump in fitting and cap when going from Duel Heavy to Mega-beam given the relative performance of Mega's versus the other races weapons and even Scorch?

You're saying that "more usable" tachyons means "like 425mm railguns".
425mms use less cap and PG than tachyons. They're asking for less cap and PG use for tachyons. You're saying that therefore that means they want the same cap and PG as 425s.
It's pretty clear to me that this is your argument.

They'll still have more PG and cap use. You seem to think that crippling PG and cap use to the point where nobody deems use of these weapons worthwhile is indicative of good game balance. It isn't. And there's no way you can dispute that.

Actually with Odyssey stats gallente battleships have more cap than amarr ones.

It lost one effective turret, and gained a low slot. Not much difference.

What still baffles me about it is that it has such a mediocre lock range. 60km? Wtf.

having tachs be like 425 rail guns does not in any way shape or form mean they need to be exactly the same, nor that they should have the exact same fittings.

you have all wasted like five pages being neckbeards.

the word "like" in this context can refer to many things such as
[beams being like 425s in ] fitting progression in terms of percent increase over the closest lower step
[beams being like 425s in ] cap usage increase over next lowest step.

the lower step being the previous turret size in the progression of turret in its own class. Ie. Duals, 350 425 : duals, megabeams, tachyeons.

what they seem to be asking for, and what you seem to be so stubbornly ignoring, James and Bouh, is the progression in cap use and fitting costs from the lower tiered turrets in their own class to be consistent across all turrets or at least the progression in terms of percent increase in beam lasers to be comparable to the percent increase in railguns, in this manner.

to copy and expand this a bit. .......................----> Percent increase over previous step
Weapon .........(PG,............ CPU, .....Cap / Sec) ...( PG ....... CPU ........Cap/sec)
Duel Heavy ...(1559.25, ...35.25, ....3.9) ---->Base
Mega ..............(2895.75, ...43.5, ......5.8) ...............(85.71 .....23.40 .....48.717)
Tach................ (3341.25, ..47.25, ....6.1)...............(15.38 .....8.62 ........ 5.17)

1200 ...............(2722.5, ......33,......... 0) ---->Base
1400 ...............(3217.5, ......35.25, ....0)..................(18.18 ....6.818..........~)

Duel 250........ (1039.5, ......43.5,...... 1.8) ---->Base
350 ..................(1559.7, ......47.25,.... 2.1) ..............(50.04.....8.62 ......16.6)
425 ..................(2079, ..........55.5,...... 2.2)...............(33.29....17.46......4.67)

I will be the first to admit that this is not a totally fair comparison. but if the beam lasers were to follow the percent increase of the railgun steps, they would look like this,

Weapon .........(PG,............ CPU, .....Cap / Sec)
Duel Heavy ...(1559.25, ...35.25, ....3.9)
Mega ..............(2339.50, ...38.28, ....4.5) = (-556.25 .... -5.22.....-1.3)
Tach............... (3118.32, ...44.88, ....4.7) = (-222.93.....-2.37 .....-1.4)

I dont know if this is what you want from them, but thats what that means at least.

That is true. But how I understand it is more like the scales being differents.
dual heavy beam is on the same level than dual 250mm, but amarr then skip a stage, and megabeam come to the level of 425mm ; and tachyon on a higher scale.

A second thing to consider is the special place dual heavy beams actually occupy : this weapon is in fact at the place of gatling pulse (and you can see it with the fact that there is no low grade pulse laser for medium and large weapons ; only hybrid have 3 short and long range guns). So the dual heavy beam is on an another scale in fact, and more of a low grade pulse than a low grade beam.

I never denied that. I was actually one of the first to say the Hyperion could be too good. But feel free to ask for a nerf on the gallente thread, and face the crowd of gallente pilots pissed with their armor rep bonus.

Maybe you should actually read my posts next time instead of chiding me for advancing the same point as you.

You might actually accomplish more than making yourself look like a ****.