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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Author
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2261 - 2013-05-02 03:26:07 UTC
a Tach fit Abaddon could potentially counter this with better range support and damage, potentially leveling the playing field or even gaining the advantage.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2262 - 2013-05-02 03:28:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

No PG mods, so either the Odyssey modified EFT files on FHC are wrong, as this fit with 1600 T2 plate and meta MWD, or the change in PG on beams fittings is being slightly undersold (granted it is a tight fit). Abaddon had more EHP even with 3 heatsinks (works only on lvl v fittings). Going home in a bit to be able to access EFT and the fits, but while here I wanted to start asking about alternative fits. Yes, this is a fleet fit. It is also on the all V character, but actually sacrifices for CPU when needed, not PG. That said it was a med booster fit, hence part of my question being how long the MWD is typically run. Constantly? If so then yes, there are major issues, if not then things become much more manageable.


If you're fitting tach's then you most certainly have PG mods, full rack of Tach II's takes 102% of the PG even with the new changes the last I checked.

I stated megabeam, not Tach. Though if tach were able to fit in the same fitting the Abaddon would have a great DPS advantage out to ~130km taking T2 ammo into account.


You said Tach Abaddon in your original post but whatever. The dps would be misleading as you'd be capped out quickly even without a tank or mwd.

Not really fair to compare 425 II's and Megabeam II's since megabeam's are a step down from tach's while the 425 II's are the top rail. Fitting wise they're near the same as 425 II's, a full rack of 8 takes 88% of the PG on both hulls but the megabeams use triple the cap. So like someone else said, you'd better have remote cap or you'd be filling out your mid's with cap boosters and forget about the MWD running or active tank, while the Rokh wouldn't have to nearly as much, giving it the advantage as someone else mentioned.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2263 - 2013-05-02 03:34:31 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:

To focus more specifically on your comments, the Rokh has an easier time running it's MWD while firing at base then the Abaddon, so it can maintain range control much easier, thus allowing it to more easily dictate the terms of the engagement.

That seems to pose more of the question upon whether crystal breaking should be the limiting point of lasers when not under cap warfare rather than cap in the short term. If cap is to be a limiting factor than the Abaddon will always have the issue of ease running both MWD and guns (perhaps thus is the focal point of contention?). And the Rokh already has the range setting advantage due to the wonderful virtues of armor tanking and its effect on mobility.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2264 - 2013-05-02 03:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Avald Midular wrote:
Not really fair to compare 425 II's and Megabeam II's since megabeam's are a step down from tach's while the 425 II's are the top rail. Fitting wise they're near the same as 425 II's, a full rack of 8 takes 88% of the PG on both hulls but the megabeams use triple the cap. So like someone else said, you'd better have remote cap or you'd be filling out your mid's with cap boosters and forget about the MWD running or active tank, while the Rokh wouldn't have to nearly as much, giving it the advantage as someone else mentioned.

Tach's vs 425's on comparable fits never favor 425's unless out of the max range of tach's. This leaves a small window before moving beyong 150km and making one susceptible to warp in's. The issue is that the DPS difference is great enough to allow the tach's to step down a step or 2 to lower damage ammo to match range while still maintaining higher DPS.

As far as mobility, that is a losing proposition unless 425's become less usable cap wise than megabeams to make up for the raw speed difference incurred be armor tanking.

As to the cap, same as before. Is something supposed to limit indefinite laser usage like ammo supplies and reload do for other turrets? I think CCP is using cap for that.


Also regarding the tachs in the original post, this was stated afterwards:
Avald Midular wrote:
Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD.
They were really different questions that I could have done better separating. Sorry for the confusion.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#2265 - 2013-05-02 03:55:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

No PG mods, so either the Odyssey modified EFT files on FHC are wrong, as this fit with 1600 T2 plate and meta MWD, or the change in PG on beams fittings is being slightly undersold (granted it is a tight fit). Abaddon had more EHP even with 3 heatsinks (works only on lvl v fittings). Going home in a bit to be able to access EFT and the fits, but while here I wanted to start asking about alternative fits. Yes, this is a fleet fit. It is also on the all V character, but actually sacrifices for CPU when needed, not PG. That said it was a med booster fit, hence part of my question being how long the MWD is typically run. Constantly? If so then yes, there are major issues, if not then things become much more manageable.


If you're fitting tach's then you most certainly have PG mods, full rack of Tach II's takes 102% of the PG even with the new changes the last I checked.

I stated megabeam, not Tach. Though if tach were able to fit in the same fitting the Abaddon would have a great DPS advantage out to ~130km taking T2 ammo into account.


Not really, Aurora is EM/Therm 20/12. The equiv for the Rokh would be Spikes which is Kin/Therm 16/16. The rokh has the range advantage with 194+30 (213dps) vs 108+20 (281dps). Assumig that the Rokhs pulled away from the Abaddons the abaddons have a 9ms advantage with both fitting meta IV MWDs.

Not sure on tank fits since I don't have the one for your Abaddon and a Current Rokh. Also this comparison is silly since this doesn't take into account fleet compositions and relies on the Abaddon and the Rokh to both be able to hit each other reliably. Also it probably relies on the abaddon having and entire hold of cap booster charges or being fed all the energy it needs since even with just beams and the MWD running you only have a time to cap out of less than 1min 30s (number is napkin since live with this would be 1min 3s and I can't be bothered factoring in the -10% cap reduction).
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2266 - 2013-05-02 03:59:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

To focus more specifically on your comments, the Rokh has an easier time running it's MWD while firing at base then the Abaddon, so it can maintain range control much easier, thus allowing it to more easily dictate the terms of the engagement.

That seems to pose more of the question upon whether crystal breaking should be the limiting point of lasers when not under cap warfare rather than cap in the short term. If cap is to be a limiting factor than the Abaddon will always have the issue of ease running both MWD and guns (perhaps thus is the focal point of contention?). And the Rokh already has the range setting advantage due to the wonderful virtues of armor tanking and its effect on mobility.

but if I were to FC a fleet of Rohks vs a fleet of Abaddons, I'd be an idiot to not make sure it's cap dependancy issues were pushed to help ensure my advantage.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2267 - 2013-05-02 04:03:13 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

No PG mods, so either the Odyssey modified EFT files on FHC are wrong, as this fit with 1600 T2 plate and meta MWD, or the change in PG on beams fittings is being slightly undersold (granted it is a tight fit). Abaddon had more EHP even with 3 heatsinks (works only on lvl v fittings). Going home in a bit to be able to access EFT and the fits, but while here I wanted to start asking about alternative fits. Yes, this is a fleet fit. It is also on the all V character, but actually sacrifices for CPU when needed, not PG. That said it was a med booster fit, hence part of my question being how long the MWD is typically run. Constantly? If so then yes, there are major issues, if not then things become much more manageable.


If you're fitting tach's then you most certainly have PG mods, full rack of Tach II's takes 102% of the PG even with the new changes the last I checked.

I stated megabeam, not Tach. Though if tach were able to fit in the same fitting the Abaddon would have a great DPS advantage out to ~130km taking T2 ammo into account.


Not really, Aurora is EM/Therm 20/12. The equiv for the Rokh would be Spikes which is Kin/Therm 16/16. The rokh has the range advantage with 194+30 (213dps) vs 108+20 (281dps). Assumig that the Rokhs pulled away from the Abaddons the abaddons have a 9ms advantage with both fitting meta IV MWDs.

Not sure on tank fits since I don't have the one for your Abaddon and a Current Rokh. Also this comparison is silly since this doesn't take into account fleet compositions and relies on the Abaddon and the Rokh to both be able to hit each other reliably. Also it probably relies on the abaddon having and entire hold of cap booster charges or being fed all the energy it needs since even with just beams and the MWD running you only have a time to cap out of less than 1min 30s (number is napkin since live with this would be 1min 3s and I can't be bothered factoring in the -10% cap reduction).

Again, EFT warrioring showed longer cap life, but again, not knowing is why I'm asking. I'm getting the impressions that cap draw is rather static at max levels without people coming out and saying it, but then no one has come out and said it. Also with the TE nerf a scripted TC seemed to help even the range a bit vs the Rokh with 1 TE. So scripted it runs out to ~130 with T2 ammo.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2268 - 2013-05-02 04:06:56 UTC
we might have to see about just gathering up some people for both sides and put it to a real test on Duality to seriously settle it.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#2269 - 2013-05-02 04:30:53 UTC
I'm going to assume that this Abaddon you have cooked up is as follows (do correct me if I am wrong)

8x Mega Beam Laser II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II
x
x
Damage Control II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plate II
3x Heat Sink II

I will leave the mid slots open as you haven't stated them. I have included a DCUII but you could also have a meta IV there. I have put in EANMIIs since I am assuming a fleet build that isn't prepared against a known fleet so you won't be taking your chances with setting up specific resists. I am assuming Medium Cap booster II since there is room for it since I don't know the other mids, otherwise it will be a metaIV.

So, two tracking comps or two sensor boosters or one of each?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2270 - 2013-05-02 04:48:34 UTC
I Agree, any such test should go with the standard fleet resist profiles, and not be set vs one another's damage types.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2271 - 2013-05-02 04:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Pelea Ming wrote:
we might have to see about just gathering up some people for both sides and put it to a real test on Duality to seriously settle it.
Sounds fun actually.

@Super spikinator

Finally in from of a computer with EFT and yes, all is correct. Regarding the unknown mids, one of each. As stated before part of the reasoning for my questioning is, will a med booster be workable? And can it be worked into a fleet dynamic?

Edit: notably it requires a CPU implant to do all T2, though not sure which ltems would be best to go meta first

Edit 2: The 130KM number came from a strait substitution of Megabeam for Tach. The point being to attempt simulation of Tach's being brought down to fittings comparable to 425's.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2272 - 2013-05-02 04:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Avald Midular]
As to the cap, same as before. Is something supposed to limit indefinite laser usage like ammo supplies and reload do for other turrets? I think CCP is using cap for that.


Eh I think that's not even close to being balanced if that is their intention. Having more than triple the cap cost per second to fire is significantly more limiting and leaves you more vulnerable way longer than having to reload for 5 seconds every 4.78 minutes (425 ii's with lvl 5 rapid fire).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2273 - 2013-05-02 04:59:53 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Avald Midular]
As to the cap, same as before. Is something supposed to limit indefinite laser usage like ammo supplies and reload do for other turrets? I think CCP is using cap for that.


Eh I think that's not even close to being balanced if that is their intention. Having more than triple the cap cost per second to fire is significantly more limiting and leaves you more vulnerable way longer than having to reload for 5 seconds every 4.78 minutes (425 ii's with lvl 5 rapid fire).

Not disagreeing, but when I try to think about why cap use is so high that is the only "real" reason I can think of.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2274 - 2013-05-02 05:24:29 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Avald Midular]
As to the cap, same as before. Is something supposed to limit indefinite laser usage like ammo supplies and reload do for other turrets? I think CCP is using cap for that.


Eh I think that's not even close to being balanced if that is their intention. Having more than triple the cap cost per second to fire is significantly more limiting and leaves you more vulnerable way longer than having to reload for 5 seconds every 4.78 minutes (425 ii's with lvl 5 rapid fire).

Not disagreeing, but when I try to think about why cap use is so high that is the only "real" reason I can think of.


That along with the PG fittings being 1-tier off (Tach's = 2 x 425, Megabeams = 425's but 2 x 325's, etc) makes me continue to believe giving Amarr only laser boats with 8 turrets a late and ongoing April Fool's joke.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#2275 - 2013-05-02 07:38:54 UTC
First of all don't get this wrong. I know the cap usage on those tach beams are really a big PITA. You get extra damage to compensate for it but it is still a big pain. I just found an alternative way to use that extra firepower to get rid of cap problems. It will be possible in odyssey but not in current version.

[Abaddon, Buddy]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Large Energy Transfer Array II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Have an abaddon buddy and stick close to him. You'll still do very decent damage and will not have as much cap issues.

Now...if you want to have a full rack of tachs AND abaddon class tank AND have no cap issues, you are asking to have something so overpowered that will obsolote all other LR ships for fleet combat.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2276 - 2013-05-02 08:23:26 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Avald Midular]
As to the cap, same as before. Is something supposed to limit indefinite laser usage like ammo supplies and reload do for other turrets? I think CCP is using cap for that.


Eh I think that's not even close to being balanced if that is their intention. Having more than triple the cap cost per second to fire is significantly more limiting and leaves you more vulnerable way longer than having to reload for 5 seconds every 4.78 minutes (425 ii's with lvl 5 rapid fire).





would prefer this to "pew pew, oh look, 1/8 cap left, time to find a station to quick charge in"

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend

John 1135
#2277 - 2013-05-02 09:05:05 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

To focus more specifically on your comments, the Rokh has an easier time running it's MWD while firing at base then the Abaddon, so it can maintain range control much easier, thus allowing it to more easily dictate the terms of the engagement.

That seems to pose more of the question upon whether crystal breaking should be the limiting point of lasers when not under cap warfare rather than cap in the short term. If cap is to be a limiting factor than the Abaddon will always have the issue of ease running both MWD and guns (perhaps thus is the focal point of contention?). And the Rokh already has the range setting advantage due to the wonderful virtues of armor tanking and its effect on mobility.

And this ties into the resists nerf. The Abaddon answered manouevre with mitigation: hence an MWD could often be factored out of cap considerations.

The changes to this dynamic will make Abaddon feel laser cap costs more than before.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2278 - 2013-05-02 11:06:51 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
I'm going to assume that this Abaddon you have cooked up is as follows (do correct me if I am wrong)

8x Mega Beam Laser II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II
x
x
Damage Control II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plate II
3x Heat Sink II

I will leave the mid slots open as you haven't stated them. I have included a DCUII but you could also have a meta IV there. I have put in EANMIIs since I am assuming a fleet build that isn't prepared against a known fleet so you won't be taking your chances with setting up specific resists. I am assuming Medium Cap booster II since there is room for it since I don't know the other mids, otherwise it will be a metaIV.

So, two tracking comps or two sensor boosters or one of each?



You cannot say that is a bad ship.....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2279 - 2013-05-02 11:12:31 UTC
Calathorn Virpio wrote:

lol, good thing i got both of those mentioned skills to LV 5, start out as ANY other race and THEN spec into ammar seems like the only way to do it so you're not twiddling your thumbs for 6 months waiting to finnally fit a decent CRUISER fit.


EDIT: oh right, i took a 5 month break, i'm STILL twiddling my thumbs......


Lies.. or at least exageration. In 6 months you can have a reasonably good Battleship pilto specialzied for ammar.

And do not complain of skill intensiveness. Minmatar stil required more skilling than any other race. YOu eee armor skills, Projectiles, missiles, everything.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2280 - 2013-05-02 13:12:42 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:

lol, good thing i got both of those mentioned skills to LV 5, start out as ANY other race and THEN spec into ammar seems like the only way to do it so you're not twiddling your thumbs for 6 months waiting to finnally fit a decent CRUISER fit.


EDIT: oh right, i took a 5 month break, i'm STILL twiddling my thumbs......


Lies.. or at least exageration. In 6 months you can have a reasonably good Battleship pilto specialzied for ammar.

And do not complain of skill intensiveness. Minmatar stil required more skilling than any other race. YOu eee armor skills, Projectiles, missiles, everything.


To fly everything yes, but to level projectiles and shield tanking which allows you into a majority of the "better" ships, it takes much less time than Amarr who must do the cap skills to 5 for these BS's.