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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2241 - 2013-05-01 22:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for your work CCP Rise!
May I know what do you think of the 6 turret + 7.5/level damage plan, for Abaddon or Apoc?


I think the problem with it is that the Abaddon is strong enough already (as proven on TQ) that giving it extra turrets right now would be difficult to justify, and the Apoc doesn't have a damage bonus to use - so doing this for the Apoc would mean reworking it completely around a new damage bonus.



I think one less turret is the right way to go. It will help its cap, make heretical 1400 arty fits go away (probably) and give Amarr gunships so much needed utility high slot for some spider tanking pve action.

The ship was in solid balance (almost perfect in my opinion) but seeing as other races have no fitting troubles or capacitor troubles of this magnitude some Amarr love is needed. Also this resistance nerf is hurting it a lot and some armor hp buff is in order.

And rework Armageddons art if you insist so much on turning it in a drone boat since it looks nothing like one. Its a slim tube connecting engine and cockpit. Its just silly.



I am gonna say that I doubt the "heretical" 1400mm fits will go away. It is one of the only ways to reduce/eliminate the issues that presently plague the ships fitted with beam lasers (due to the imbalance in cap and pwg of such guns). Until those issues are addressed properly by the Dev Team, Amarr battleships will continue to be used with Arty.


It's an alternative to fixing the cap and PG of laser weapons which, for some reason, they believe to be balanced (though CCP Rise one day posts he doesn't see a cap issue and then the next day comes back with the Large Energy Weapon thread modifications, so which is it?). I like it since I think major overhaul of the energy weapon fitting wouldn't make it by Odyssey whereas simply modifying the turret counts can (took 2 hours for Gallente).

I also like it because it moves closer to the Nightmare (or new Gallenta BS's) which I believe to be a successful platform. Gives the pilot actual choice between Scorch and something else without gimping fits. Again allowing more pilot choice to actually fit and run a MWD like other races or maybe, gasp, an active armor tank. Notice I said closer and not matching the Nightmare, so calm down non-Amarrs.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2242 - 2013-05-01 23:37:09 UTC
being able to fit a half-way decent ammar BS whose hull doesn't cost as much as a capital WOULD be nice.....just saying, you know, what a rational person would expect.....

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
WestHam FC
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2243 - 2013-05-02 00:08:47 UTC
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
being able to fit a half-way decent ammar BS whose hull doesn't cost as much as a capital WOULD be nice.....just saying, you know, what a rational person would expect.....


You can fit all amarr boats now, what I worry about is how CCP are dumbing down the game. Making it easy so the current gen gamers can play it without fear of loss, or having to think very much.
I can remember my first Abby 5 years ago, I spent days trying to get all my tachys to activate...
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2244 - 2013-05-02 00:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
WestHam FC wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
being able to fit a half-way decent ammar BS whose hull doesn't cost as much as a capital WOULD be nice.....just saying, you know, what a rational person would expect.....


You can fit all amarr boats now, what I worry about is how CCP are dumbing down the game. Making it easy so the current gen gamers can play it without fear of loss, or having to think very much.
I can remember my first Abby 5 years ago, I spent days trying to get all my tachys to activate...


Care to provide an example fit then and we'll compare it to an analogous fit for the other races and compare the fitting costs and cap usage, you know... instead of complaining about walking to school in the snow?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2245 - 2013-05-02 00:23:44 UTC
I just love how everyone now is jumping about cutting back on turrets for our boats when I tried recommending the same thing dozens of pages ago and at best got meh results :P But yes, if you dig for them, I actually put up some actual numbers and all (damage bonus adjustments, PG and cap adjustments, etc) as did a few others.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2246 - 2013-05-02 00:28:31 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
I just love how everyone now is jumping about cutting back on turrets for our boats when I tried recommending the same thing dozens of pages ago and at best got meh results :P But yes, if you dig for them, I actually put up some actual numbers and all (damage bonus adjustments, PG and cap adjustments, etc) as did a few others.


I saw it and I appreciate your fits and ideas. Things tend to get buried quickly, so there's always a bit of repetition of ideas. I don't think it matters who gets credit, I just want the few minutes CCP Fozzie or Rise will spend reading the forum will include good suggestions.
WestHam FC
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2247 - 2013-05-02 00:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: WestHam FC
Avald Midular wrote:
WestHam FC wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
being able to fit a half-way decent ammar BS whose hull doesn't cost as much as a capital WOULD be nice.....just saying, you know, what a rational person would expect.....


You can fit all amarr boats now, what I worry about is how CCP are dumbing down the game. Making it easy so the current gen gamers can play it without fear of loss, or having to think very much.
I can remember my first Abby 5 years ago, I spent days trying to get all my tachys to activate...


Care to provide an example fit then and we'll compare it to an analogous fit for the other races and compare the fitting costs and cap usage, you know... instead of complaining about walking to school in the snow?


Not complaining so much as sad to see it coming. What is wrong with having to make choices? an have repercussions for things?. Not to mention I fail to see why we need a game where everyone can just have everything without any need to give up somethings for others.

Case in point, my Nightmare is on edge as far as his fit goes, capwize, an tank wise. I have maxed core skills so that isn't the issue, it is just a skill intensive boat... But what CCP seem to be doing it making it so everyone can have everything without any need to choose. I have to run 2 Heavy Nos to keep my cap up.

As for fitting, lol you expect me to remember a 5 year old fitting... good luck with that, why dont you go try an fit all tachys on the Abby without any need to pick an choose. Remembering that we didn't all start out with maxed core skills. (10$ says that is coming) along with another 50$ says CCP will allow buying of SP, to cater to the little timmys of the online world.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2248 - 2013-05-02 00:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
WestHam FC wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
WestHam FC wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
being able to fit a half-way decent ammar BS whose hull doesn't cost as much as a capital WOULD be nice.....just saying, you know, what a rational person would expect.....


You can fit all amarr boats now, what I worry about is how CCP are dumbing down the game. Making it easy so the current gen gamers can play it without fear of loss, or having to think very much.
I can remember my first Abby 5 years ago, I spent days trying to get all my tachys to activate...


Care to provide an example fit then and we'll compare it to an analogous fit for the other races and compare the fitting costs and cap usage, you know... instead of complaining about walking to school in the snow?


Not complaining so much as sad to see it coming. What is wrong with having to make choices? an have repercussions for things?. Not to mention I fail to see why we need a game where everyone can just have everything without any need to give up somethings for others.

Case in point, my Nightmare is on edge as far as his fit goes, capwize, an tank wise. I have maxed core skills so that isn't the issue, it is just a skill intensive boat... But what CCP seem to be doing it making it so everyone can have everything without any need to choose. I have to run 2 Heavy Nos to keep my cap up.

As for fitting, lol you expect me to remember a 5 year old fitting... good luck with that, why dont you go try an fit all tachys on the Abby without any need to pick an choose. Remembering that we didn't all start out with maxed core skills. (10$ says that is coming) along with another 50$ says CCP will allow buying of SP, to cater to the little timmys of the online world.


As long as Amarr aren't the only ones having to make those choices I'm all for it, but with the new BS's the Amarr are. Low-SP Amarr's have zero choices amongst the new T1 BS's and high-SP players are shoehorned into Scorch and buffer tanking which is great in fleet but not everyone has a remote-cap and rep tagging along at all times.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2249 - 2013-05-02 00:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.
WestHam FC
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2250 - 2013-05-02 01:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: WestHam FC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megapulse usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.


if your gonna be in fleets, I would choose nightmare over Abby to be honest (yes its more expensive, but it hits harder too)

ignore me, for some reason I was thinking you were talking about pve......
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2251 - 2013-05-02 01:50:35 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2252 - 2013-05-02 01:54:36 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2253 - 2013-05-02 02:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?


You'd be at much less EHP in the Abaddon due to having to fit PG and cap mods where the Rokh could more focus on tank in the mids and dps/range in the lows, probably 2 PG mods since one is just for the beams which is the nature of most of our complaints. No matter how many cap boosters you had in the Abby I'm not sure you'd last long firing while blasting the MWD so the Rokh would have it easier there. Things get even worse for the Abby if you wanted to active tank but I'm not sure if you meant in fleets or not.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2254 - 2013-05-02 03:04:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?


You'd be at much less EHP in the Abaddon due to having to fit PG and cap mods where the Rokh could more focus on tank in the mids and dps/range in the lows, probably 2 PG mods since one is just for the beams which is the nature of most of our complaints. No matter how many cap boosters you had in the Abby I'm not sure you'd last long firing while blasting the MWD so the Rokh would have it easier there. Things get even worse for the Abby if you wanted to active tank but I'm not sure if you meant in fleets or not.

No PG mods, so either the Odyssey modified EFT files on FHC are wrong, as this fit with 1600 T2 plate and meta MWD, or the change in PG on beams fittings is being slightly undersold (granted it is a tight fit). Abaddon had more EHP even with 3 heatsinks (works only on lvl v fittings). Going home in a bit to be able to access EFT and the fits, but while here I wanted to start asking about alternative fits. Yes, this is a fleet fit. It is also on the all V character, but actually sacrifices for CPU when needed, not PG. That said it was a med booster fit, hence part of my question being how long the MWD is typically run. Constantly? If so then yes, there are major issues, if not then things become much more manageable.

Edit: To be honest I'd most be interested in a Rokh fit as a starting point as it feels to be the non-alpha BS of choice right now and as such is probably a good baseline.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2255 - 2013-05-02 03:07:38 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?


You'd be at much less EHP in the Abaddon due to having to fit PG and cap mods where the Rokh could more focus on tank in the mids and dps/range in the lows, probably 2 PG mods since one is just for the beams which is the nature of most of our complaints. No matter how many cap boosters you had in the Abby I'm not sure you'd last long firing while blasting the MWD so the Rokh would have it easier there. Things get even worse for the Abby if you wanted to active tank but I'm not sure if you meant in fleets or not.

No PG mods, so either the Odyssey modified EFT files on FHC are wrong, as this fit with 1600 T2 plate and meta MWD, or the change in PG on beams fittings is being slightly undersold (granted it is a tight fit). Abaddon had more EHP even with 3 heatsinks (works only on lvl v fittings). Going home in a bit to be able to access EFT and the fits, but while here I wanted to start asking about alternative fits. Yes, this is a fleet fit. It is also on the all V character, but actually sacrifices for CPU when needed, not PG. That said it was a med booster fit, hence part of my question being how long the MWD is typically run. Constantly? If so then yes, there are major issues, if not then things become much more manageable.


If you're fitting tach's then you most certainly have PG mods, full rack of Tach II's takes 102% of the PG even with the new changes the last I checked.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2256 - 2013-05-02 03:10:59 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

No PG mods, so either the Odyssey modified EFT files on FHC are wrong, as this fit with 1600 T2 plate and meta MWD, or the change in PG on beams fittings is being slightly undersold (granted it is a tight fit). Abaddon had more EHP even with 3 heatsinks (works only on lvl v fittings). Going home in a bit to be able to access EFT and the fits, but while here I wanted to start asking about alternative fits. Yes, this is a fleet fit. It is also on the all V character, but actually sacrifices for CPU when needed, not PG. That said it was a med booster fit, hence part of my question being how long the MWD is typically run. Constantly? If so then yes, there are major issues, if not then things become much more manageable.


If you're fitting tach's then you most certainly have PG mods, full rack of Tach II's takes 102% of the PG even with the new changes the last I checked.

I stated megabeam, not Tach. Though if tach were able to fit in the same fitting the Abaddon would have a great DPS advantage out to ~130km taking T2 ammo into account.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2257 - 2013-05-02 03:12:18 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?

The Rohk isn't giving up as much as the Abaddon for a decent fitting, relative cap life, and an MWD.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2258 - 2013-05-02 03:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
and I'm basing my commentary off of Mega Beams vs 425s.
typically, the 425s have that much easier base cap draw, which enables them to use the MWD more heavily, especially under logistics support for cap, where as the Abaddon even with Mega needs that support just to keep it's lasers firing let alone try to use an MWD too heavily. And as has been seriously pointed out, you can't realisticly attempt this with Tachs, and since lasers are supposed to be at a range advantage over hybrids to counter out the heavy weaknesses to them and the hulls they are fitted to... the results should be fairly obviously predictable.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2259 - 2013-05-02 03:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?

The Rohk isn't giving up as much as the Abaddon for a decent fitting, relative cap life, and an MWD.

Here (your comment) is why I'm asking for comparable fits. I don't think you are unintelligent commentors thus I'm almost certain that there is something I am missing. I'm not using fitting mods, so in the end my limits on MY fits seem to be cap and speed. How much does the 100m/s under MWD matter? How constant is the full cap draw (how long is the MWD running)? Also, again, where should the Rokhs domain, as a definitively range focused ship, end and the Abaddon's begin?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2260 - 2013-05-02 03:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how ideally would a tach Abaddon measure up with say, a fleet fit Rokh? Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD. Damage being on the Abaddons side to 50-60km for the fits I came up with. I'm sure others could come up with better comparison fits so I thought I'd ask for help in that area.

Offhand, I don't have specific numbers, but from my familiarity with the 2 ships I'd put my money on the Rohk.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?

The Rohk isn't giving up as much as the Abaddon for a decent fitting, relative cap life, and an MWD.

Here (your comment) is why I'm asking for comparable fits. I don't think you are unintelligent commentors thus I'm almost certain that either there is something I am missing. I'm not using fitting mods, so in the end my limits on MY fits seem to be cap and speed. How much does the 100m/s under MWD matter? How constant is the full cap draw (how long is the MWD running)? Also, again, where should the Rokhs domain, as a definitively range focused ship, end and the Abaddon's begin?

To focus more specifically on your comments, the Rokh has an easier time running it's MWD while firing at base then the Abaddon, so it can maintain range control much easier, thus allowing it to more easily dictate the terms of the engagement.