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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#941 - 2013-04-30 15:33:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Mm had an idea.. sicne the geddon can get secodnary ewar bonus...


Take your very proposal with 8.5% rof... but change that falloff bonus to WEB RANGE BONUS.

And I buy it... !!!

Web range is an interesting idea, but then your going for a close range auto ship. I must admit it would be fun to fly though. But the benefit of falloff is it benefit artillery and autos. I guess the web could help artillery trap smaller ships that try to close in on it. Hmm, interesting idea anyway.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#942 - 2013-04-30 18:24:24 UTC
A web range bonus would be soooooo overpowered.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#943 - 2013-04-30 19:12:09 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
A web range bonus would be soooooo overpowered.


Yep. And if we had a web range bonus we would pretty much require 6 mid slots on the ship enless we pigeon it into an armour tanking ship. All in all that would be too powerful, and also a completely different ship to the Tempest.
BABARR
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#944 - 2013-04-30 20:20:23 UTC
Tempest just need a bit more speed, 1 gun hardpoint more, and a low slot instead a med or high.

That the problem whith the tempest, one direction CCP will take, some ppl are going to be hunhappy and cry beacause it's not the way they use the tempest.
Remove a hight slot for a low? ppl whith 2xremote or 2xneutra going to cry.
Remove a med? ppl who fly shield tanked going to cry.

So dev have to CHOSE what they really want the tempest for.
For me, the tempest should be THE gun boat armor, like rupture or hurricane, and it need 1 gun and 1 low slot more to be efficient in this role.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#945 - 2013-04-30 20:22:47 UTC
Attack battleships

I may post this in every thread.

Anybody feel these are a little lacking in their role.

The Mega may be an exception due to it’s opportunity for massive close range DPS but generally these feel like they should be on the move and yet seem to have cap problems doing so, this is not so much a problem for combat battleships that may end up in scram range or as fleet platforms where mobility is just one factor.

Attack frigates have a role bonus over combat frigates, this helps them maintain tackle and speed by reducing the cap draw of propulsion disruption modules. At battleship level such a bonus would make very little difference but at battleship level, no ship can run a Microwarpdrive for any significant period of time.

How would people feel about a cap reduction role bonus for propulsion modules for all Attack Battleships? Even something as strong as 50% or even 75% to enable these ships to stay on the move (as much as battleships can) without constant cap boosting.
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#946 - 2013-04-30 20:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvous
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Attack battleships

I may post this in every thread.

Anybody feel these are a little lacking in their role.

The Mega may be an exception due to it’s opportunity for massive close range DPS but generally these feel like they should be on the move and yet seem to have cap problems doing so, this is not so much a problem for combat battleships that may end up in scram range or as fleet platforms where mobility is just one factor.

Attack frigates have a role bonus over combat frigates, this helps them maintain tackle and speed by reducing the cap draw of propulsion disruption modules. At battleship level such a bonus would make very little difference but at battleship level, no ship can run a Microwarpdrive for any significant period of time.

How would people feel about a cap reduction role bonus for propulsion modules for all Attack Battleships? Even something as strong as 50% or even 75% to enable these ships to stay on the move (as much as battleships can) without constant cap boosting.


Neat idea, but not in a T1 hull.

Edit: Also horrible idea posting this in these threads, off topic and if people (such as myself) reply you are forcing the talk into 4 different threads. Put this as a new topic.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#947 - 2013-04-30 20:53:58 UTC
Sylvous wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Attack battleships

I may post this in every thread.

Anybody feel these are a little lacking in their role.

The Mega may be an exception due to it’s opportunity for massive close range DPS but generally these feel like they should be on the move and yet seem to have cap problems doing so, this is not so much a problem for combat battleships that may end up in scram range or as fleet platforms where mobility is just one factor.

Attack frigates have a role bonus over combat frigates, this helps them maintain tackle and speed by reducing the cap draw of propulsion disruption modules. At battleship level such a bonus would make very little difference but at battleship level, no ship can run a Microwarpdrive for any significant period of time.

How would people feel about a cap reduction role bonus for propulsion modules for all Attack Battleships? Even something as strong as 50% or even 75% to enable these ships to stay on the move (as much as battleships can) without constant cap boosting.


Neat idea, but not in a T1 hull.

Edit: Also horrible idea posting this in these threads, off topic and if people (such as myself) reply you are forcing the talk into 4 different threads. Put this as a new topic.


Many T1 ships have role bonuses, even quite strong ones.

Don’t believe it is off topic either. Look at the Tempest discussion. Concerns over mobility and slot locations, it is a fairly cap independent ship with one exception the Microwarpdrive. Shield or armour fit you need a cap booster to run that for more than two minutes, let alone if you come under neuting pressure, this could perhaps save a midslot although it may expose the ship to a be neuted easily by doing so.
BABARR
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#948 - 2013-04-30 21:15:27 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:


How would people feel about a cap reduction role bonus for propulsion modules for all Attack Battleships? Even something as strong as 50% or even 75% to enable these ships to stay on the move (as much as battleships can) without constant cap boosting.


Idea not bad, BUT, it's going to degenerate in a nano abuse quickly :)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#949 - 2013-04-30 21:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
I'd like to have the deimos wicked mwd-cap bonus :>

To be fair, dualneut does plow through active tanks and is generally great, but couldn't that be reserved for the more brawly fleet pest with the regular pest feeling more attacky then 'like other attack battleships, but projectiles and 2 neuts'?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#950 - 2013-04-30 23:25:24 UTC
BABARR wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:


How would people feel about a cap reduction role bonus for propulsion modules for all Attack Battleships? Even something as strong as 50% or even 75% to enable these ships to stay on the move (as much as battleships can) without constant cap boosting.


Idea not bad, BUT, it's going to degenerate in a nano abuse quickly :)


Its too weak of a bonus. VERY VERY WEAK. An AB speed bonus on other hand could be thinkable

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#951 - 2013-04-30 23:26:41 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
A web range bonus would be soooooo overpowered.



Not at rapier level. Somethign at hyena level .It woudl not be more overpowered than armaageddon new bonus

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#952 - 2013-05-01 00:08:26 UTC

Typhoon:

The flying garbage can is a very special ship. It seems to be very fondly regarded by most eve pilots, despite prohibitive skill point demands and minimal rewards. Our redesign here aims to honor the spirit of the typhoon while also providing a more focused base that will hopefully lead to more actual application.

It will lose the split weapon bonus [/[i]i](as all tech 1 ships have as part of the tiericide initiative) and will replace the projectile bonus with a missile explosion velocity bonus. Along with the addition of 6th launcher, the Typhoon will now be a very formidable damage dealer. Utility has always been one of the Typhoon's strong points, and it will be sacrificing some of this utility to take on such a strong attack role – this is a point for which we are paying close attention to your feedback.




oh really? and the armaggedons split between drones and neuts/vamps what? doesn't countRoll

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Broxus Maximas
Perkone
Caldari State
#953 - 2013-05-01 02:26:31 UTC
Wow overall I will have to say these BS got the most love of any of the races in this patch. All great ships, that simply isn't the case for the other races proposed changes.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#954 - 2013-05-01 07:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Broxus Maximas wrote:
Wow overall I will have to say these BS got the most love of any of the races in this patch. All great ships, that simply isn't the case for the other races proposed changes.



Which changes? The squidification of the typhoon? The plain boredom emitted by the tempest? Or the unchanged Maelstrom?
To mare
Advanced Technology
#955 - 2013-05-01 10:50:05 UTC
i would be very happy if CCP switches tempest and typhoon speed (or make them both 130 base speed) even at the expense of some HP, i like the slot layout of the tempest, ofc i would like an extra low or med but since the number of slot for every ship type is fixed i dont think its worth to give up a high, since CCP its going crazy with ship bonus i would give the tempest a +5% rof +7.5% damage maybe at the expense of some drone space make it 25mb 50m space, they would give the thing a 10% edge over other ships as an alpha platform and make the thing a real gankboat like every double damage bonused ships should be.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#956 - 2013-05-01 11:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
To mare wrote:
i would be very happy if CCP switches tempest and typhoon speed (or make them both 130 base speed) even at the expense of some HP, i like the slot layout of the tempest, ofc i would like an extra low or med but since the number of slot for every ship type is fixed i dont think its worth to give up a high, since CCP its going crazy with ship bonus i would give the tempest a +5% rof +7.5% damage maybe at the expense of some drone space make it 25mb 50m space, they would give the thing a 10% edge over other ships as an alpha platform and make the thing a real gankboat like every double damage bonused ships should be.


The double damage bonus is really weak. It's marginally better than a 10% damage bonus that is thrown around as crazy, and it apparently is the one attack ship that is lacking a damage-application bonus, whereas attack battleships are meant to move in situations where extended ability to project damage is more than optional.
The Typhoon got a tracking bonus, the mega got a tracking bonus, the apoc got two accuracy boni and no damage boni, but using scorch, and the raven got a rangebonus, all (expect apoc) next to a damage bonus elevating their effective hardpoint count to something 8-11.

Especially taking into account the slight downtuning of tracking enhancers (which aren't really found on any non-minmatar-battleship), that tempest will be the next stabber at current progression.


As you aren't getting that many fights against solo-targets the overall acceptable tempest-test-server-performance might be inaccurate to translate to TQ.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#957 - 2013-05-01 16:53:15 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
The double damage bonus is really weak. It's marginally better than a 10% damage bonus that is thrown around as crazy, and it apparently is the one attack ship that is lacking a damage-application bonus,


Also an 8.5% rate of fire bonus is greater than both the current damage bonuses combined. So which ever way you look at it, the Tempest double damage bonus is looking increasingly bad seeing as you are getting barely any improvement over many ships which have a single damage bonus and another bonus on top.

Then consider the Tempest's base stats which aren't very good at all, and then given that the shield and armour cannot be buffed to considerable amounts like other ships. Given all that the Tempest really needs some decent bonuses to make it work. Personally I like 8.5% rate of fire and a falloff bonus, but I guess other variations would also work.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#958 - 2013-05-01 16:55:28 UTC
To mare wrote:
i would be very happy if CCP switches tempest and typhoon speed (or make them both 130 base speed) even at the expense of some HP, i like the slot layout of the tempest, ofc i would like an extra low or med but since the number of slot for every ship type is fixed i dont think its worth to give up a high, since CCP its going crazy with ship bonus i would give the tempest a +5% rof +7.5% damage maybe at the expense of some drone space make it 25mb 50m space, they would give the thing a 10% edge over other ships as an alpha platform and make the thing a real gankboat like every double damage bonused ships should be.

Just quoting again because I pretty much agree with this basic premise also, but would just like to see some decent bonuses on the Tempest. The dual damage bonus just isn't cutting it now given all the other ships having been buffed.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#959 - 2013-05-01 23:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Until we get some feedback I'm just going to leave this here:


Unless every battleship gets +1 slot (distributed to taste and in the case of the tempest 8/6/6) accross the board and we mess with bonuses instead - enter the new Tempest:


Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+8% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+10% bonus to Large Projectile Falloff

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 17000 PWG, 650 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7300 / 7400 / 6400
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+87.5) / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .104 / 101000000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km(+5k) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 360(+20)

The new Tempest exchanges turret alpha and ammunition efficiency for extended range with autocannons and artilery. With a high slot moved to a mid and a significant increase to CPU, the new Tempest receives much improved shield tanking performance with added damage projection, utility or EWAR within armour fits. With increased power grid, it's also possible to shoe horn artillery with a functional armour tank for the first time.

And although straight line speed may be lacking compared to some of the other Attack Battleships, the Tempest more than makes up for this in align time and acceleration. Overall, for what is lost trading the *utility high*, you gain so much more, more utility, tank or damage projection. And the game gets something unique in exchange, a ship with true tanking flexibility with the performance to match.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#960 - 2013-05-02 04:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrayeth
Pattern Clarc wrote:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+8% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+10% bonus to Large Projectile Falloff

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 17000 PWG, 650 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7300 / 7400 / 6400
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+87.5) / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .104 / 101000000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km(+5k) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 360(+20)


This really doesn't interest me. It doesn't do anything for the Tempest's anemic DPS, doesn't do much for its mobility over Rise's currently proposed change, and pigeon-holes the tempest into a shield fit. Sure, you could still armor tank it, but what, exactly, are you going to do with that extra mid?

* The days of overpowered sensor dampers are long since gone

* Tracking disruptors have also been nerfed for non-bonused ships (and your sig is the size of a small moon anyway).

* The Multispec of Doom™ hasn't been viable for 7 years (I used to fly with one fit to my Tempest from 2005 until when it got the axe, and it really did need nerfing - I once kept a Blasterthron jammed for an entire fight with just one multispec while I slowly chewed him to pieces).

* Target painters could help somewhat when dealing with smaller opponents, but again they don't have enough of an effect on a non-bonused ship.

I suppose you could use a dual-prop fit and gain a marginal boost when you're scrambled, but since you're a battleship and slow to begin with, it really wouldn't be the most helpful thing in the universe.

Now let's look at what you give up for that single midslot which is nearly useless on an armor fit: 1 heavy neutralizer. It doesn't sound like much, but this can be the difference between capping out your opponent and turning off such unimportant things as the warp scrambler keeping you from MWDing to maintain range and the ancillary armor rep that's keeping him alive, and dying because you weren't able to do those things.

IMO, the only thing worth giving up the second neut for is a 7th turret slot like the Machariel has.

TLDR;
Do. Not. Want.