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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Youkai Tengu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2121 - 2013-04-29 01:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Youkai Tengu
So. I haven't used my Hellcat in a while, and it looks like it will continue gathering some more dust. It's still heavily relying on cap boosters, even after the -10% turret usage, and it still moves like a boulder after the mwd - or AB - cycles are over, which happens rather quickly.

Why nerf it's resistance? Alphas still eats it in larger fleet battles, which is pretty much the only thing it's used and useful for. I'd rather see the current 5% per level, or maybe even 6%. It's almost the only thing it's doing - at least when the targets are kiting. It's kind of hillarious how Megathron almost competes with Abaddon. By that I mean Mega' got a bit of both tanking and DPS, but it also got tracking, cap. Mega' is even getting an extra low slot now?!

Apocalypse looks like a potentially nice sniper and PvE ship, but it still can't fit enough tachyons. Don't know how the cap will do, either. Will it be able to compete with Megathron? - My estimate for modules needed to compensate for cap. still says no.

'Geddon... Interesting. It's quite different to its current role, but I still think the 'geddon might have more potential with the new balancing. Competing with dominix? I read about Abaddon being able to do PvE, but hey. Would you seriously recommend Abaddon for PvE'ing, over this... over Apoc... Dominix... Myrmidon... Drake... Raven... Umm, Tengu?

As many others, I, too, see the 'Geddon as a Bhaalgorn light now. I don't really think this is a bad thing, but too still make Bhaalgorn a reasonable choice, I think the Bhaalgorn needs a bit more for its price.
WestHam FC
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2122 - 2013-04-29 02:11:27 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
WestHam FC wrote:
Unless I am reading it wrong, this...."buff" if you will, will mean end of the oldschool Apoc sniper elite. When I started, facing off against an Apoc at over 220k was a *****. I haven't been in 0.0 for a few years now, so I dont know if Apoc is still in use as a Sniper or not.


You don't snipe from much over 100km these days (except for maybe in Attack Battlecruisers), because combat probes and scanning is so fast that you cannot afford to give the other side the chance to warp in on top of you. Thus 200km+ Apocs and Rokhs aren't much of a thing any more.


ahh ok, cheers mate, yer I'm a bit oldschool :)
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2123 - 2013-04-29 06:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
One last time i guess, hope dies last and all that...

Abaddon:

Is not worth it. It is a great fleet vessel when supported by guardians and cap chains, but even after doing all that in large fleet where lag and slight disorganization can screw you completely you are not ahead than the other guys, you leveled the playing field. And then the Maelstorms alpha you.
I would not mind this at all, i thinks this is the way ships should be in this game, making choices and flying with proper support in fleets, but pretty much Amarr are the only race still having to do these things.
And seriously you buffed every other battleship capacitor in this patch, even missile ships got more, Scorpion now has the same cap regen as Abaddon, Hyperion lost two turrets... Even while eating batteries constantly and getting some energy transfer Abaddon still cant mwd around more than Maelstorm. And you nerfed it.

Apocalypse:

I like the change, tracking bonus is awesome. But you did not take into consideration new players. If you start Amarr you are screwed. No matter what you end up doing in you eve career you are probably gonna start it as high sec mission runner or miner.
You can fit Maelstorm for lvl 4 mission with lvl 3 engineering and electronics, with 0 weapon uppgrades skill, and with 10 days of training tanking skills with no implants or remap. And be cap stable with lvl 3 capacitor skills. Do that on Amarr ship. And also lasers suck without T2 crystals.

Armageddon:

First of all saying you wont change the ship, then changing it completely only few months after the announcement is a ****** thing to do to your customers, and trying to make it right with false statements "it is not used". Second, please just look at one of those big images that have all eve ships placed on them. Armageddon is the ship that looks the least as a drone boat. It is basically a cockpit connected with a slim tube to the engine. It has awesome attack battleship design.

And also i see your art department made new promotional video(new intro?), they also did a model just to troll us on april 1. In the future please direct those efforts into making of new hulls if you insist on radical changes to iconic and used ships. Thank you.
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#2124 - 2013-04-29 06:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
I will say one positive thing: the new Apoc model is a triumph, and the art team should be proud. It really breathes new life into a ship that was so ugly it was pretty much dead to me. I wish the boat had a bit more lateral presence (you know -- an engine nacelle or two jutting out from the hull), but it's still an improvement over the old model by several orders of magnitude. All the lights and everything remind me of a sleeker, more agile version of the Abaddon. If the engines were reworked (IE, there are more of them or something -- and it looks like they were from that video given that the engine compartment on the ship has been substantially altered), then this was a home run.

It also sounds like it will be a fun ship to fly. As soon as it became clear that the Oracle was a situational fleeter with absolutely no PvE utility, I wished for a 'big brother' that featured drones and a bit more staying power... and the Apoc appears to now be just that.

So bravo. I give credit where credit is due.

However, I still can't get over the changes to the Geddon. I really just wish a 4th BS was being added to each race. If the devs think that such a ship is necessary, then by all means, create it. The power is yours. You shouldn't be space hoods, though. It shouldn't be 'Galactic Robin Hood,' robbing the satisfied to placate the unsatisfied... especially given that the satisfied constitute a much larger block of people than these neut-drone Amarr types.

*Edit* Hah, managed to find a stern photo. That's not the best stern I could imagine, but it's better than those misshapen dual engines the ship used to have. I wonder if the smaller, double white exhausts on either side of the central engine are also thrusters? That would be a really nice touch.

Either way, I just sold my Geddon and bought an Apoc. I don't welcome this change, but the revamp to the Apoc at least softened the blow slightly.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2125 - 2013-04-29 11:14:05 UTC
I saw a quote from CCP Rise stating that these changes are set already and have only been green lit for change once released for public testing. I won't be able to quote it because I'm currently on my mobile, but what assurance can we get that you will actually push forth any and all changes that are raised, in this thread and during the more public testing, rather just continually ignoring what we've actually stated, which are serious issues.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
John 1135
#2126 - 2013-04-29 12:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: John 1135
Pelea Ming wrote:
I obviously haven't looked at the Nav Harb on test server yet, but the Nav Omen is actually cap stable perma-running it's 4 lasers by themselves with nothing fitted to help it's cap, so they actually balanced it's cap properly.

(hint hint WTF Abaddon?)

That's cos the Nomen had a cap reduction bonus on its lasers. Guess what's going away in Odyssey? (Take a look at the navy cruiser respec thread.)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2127 - 2013-04-29 13:08:48 UTC
John 1135 wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
I obviously haven't looked at the Nav Harb on test server yet, but the Nav Omen is actually cap stable perma-running it's 4 lasers by themselves with nothing fitted to help it's cap, so they actually balanced it's cap properly.

(hint hint WTF Abaddon?)

That's cos the Nomen had a cap reduction bonus on its lasers. Guess what's going away in Odyssey? (Take a look at the navy cruiser respec thread.)


The post you quoted even had the words, "test server" in it...

And he mentioned having 4 turrets, which the TQ Navy Omen does not...

Yikes.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2128 - 2013-04-29 13:26:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The post you quoted even had the words, "test server" in it...

And he mentioned having 4 turrets, which the TQ Navy Omen does not...

Yikes.

Since it is a kiting ship exclusively one can also assume that test was done using scorch, a T2 disruptor running and a MWD fitted, right?

I have a sneaking suspicion that its cap will behave like that of the Vagabond, with MWD being pulsed once in a while to stay near peak recharge .. but of course the rather critical difference is that the Nomen will be forced to fit cap modules in case of emergency MWD pulses or its damage drops even lower than it starts out with (lasers need cap after all Smile) whereas the Vagabond can generally ignore capping out.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2129 - 2013-04-29 13:54:40 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The post you quoted even had the words, "test server" in it...

And he mentioned having 4 turrets, which the TQ Navy Omen does not...

Yikes.

Since it is a kiting ship exclusively one can also assume that test was done using scorch, a T2 disruptor running and a MWD fitted, right?

I have a sneaking suspicion that its cap will behave like that of the Vagabond, with MWD being pulsed once in a while to stay near peak recharge .. but of course the rather critical difference is that the Nomen will be forced to fit cap modules in case of emergency MWD pulses or its damage drops even lower than it starts out with (lasers need cap after all Smile) whereas the Vagabond can generally ignore capping out.


He took issue with the statement that it's cap stable on just it's guns. I informed him he was misunderstanding. That's all.

That's the only statement being made there. That's it's cap stable with it's guns running. What else can you manage to infer from this statement, I don't know.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2130 - 2013-04-29 14:26:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
He took issue with the statement that it's cap stable on just it's guns. I informed him he was misunderstanding. That's all.

That's the only statement being made there. That's it's cap stable with it's guns running. What else can you manage to infer from this statement, I don't know.

The point I was trying to make is that the statement you are bickering over is useless without additional information. Abaddon is effectively cap-stable with MPII firing standard crystals, yet it and the soon to be revised Apocalypse are constantly being brought up in cap arguments.

Crystals used, Modules fitted, Skill levels etc. are all not only relevant but essential as no one undocks a ship with just guns fitted and shoots a can/asteroid.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2131 - 2013-04-29 14:44:53 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

The point I was trying to make is that the statement you are bickering over is useless without additional information. Abaddon is effectively cap-stable with MPII firing standard crystals, yet it and the soon to be revised Apocalypse are constantly being brought up in cap arguments.

Crystals used, Modules fitted, Skill levels etc. are all not only relevant but essential as no one undocks a ship with just guns fitted and shoots a can/asteroid.


Agreed, but there's only two crystals being used: Imp Navy Multifrequency, and Scorch, at least with pulse. And those two crystals aren't cap stable by themselves, all skills level 5. On any ship. Yes it's before modules are fitted, but an Armor repper uses less cap than a full rack of MPII's firing scorch, and we all know how easy it is to make an armor repper cap-stable. Just saying.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2132 - 2013-04-29 15:22:22 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
He took issue with the statement that it's cap stable on just it's guns. I informed him he was misunderstanding. That's all.

That's the only statement being made there. That's it's cap stable with it's guns running. What else can you manage to infer from this statement, I don't know.

The point I was trying to make is that the statement you are bickering over is useless without additional information. Abaddon is effectively cap-stable with MPII firing standard crystals, yet it and the soon to be revised Apocalypse are constantly being brought up in cap arguments.

Crystals used, Modules fitted, Skill levels etc. are all not only relevant but essential as no one undocks a ship with just guns fitted and shoots a can/asteroid.


Cap stable with standard? Who actually loads standard?

Crystals used is in fact, entirely irrelevant, because the only crystals that are genuinely worth using are IN Multi, and Scorch.

And, if you cared to actually read the thread, most people are complaining about the cap use of Beams.

Modules fitted is also irrelevant, because we can easily take into account the Amarr slot tax for cap, so we have very little wiggle room as far as what we fit.

Skill levels are relevant only in how much this impacts the new player with less than perfect skills. Which, universally, the answer is that Amarr is a "all skills V" race (at least above frigate level anyway), and remains so with these changes. "No newbies need apply" might as well be the tagline of our race.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2133 - 2013-04-29 16:08:41 UTC
Regolis wrote:

My opinion is still that the metric they are using to "balance" lasers is broken for beam lasers.
How else can you explain that for YEARS beam laser being terribad yet no major changes to them?
Removing the -10% cap usage was the best thing they could have done. As it brings the glaring issue of just how broken these weapons are to light.

L Pulse -10% cap need, L Beam -20% cap need, -10% PG need, but yes, your correct, no one uses beams other then Large at all regularly, and even those are pretty much kept to mostly PvE uses. As for pushing for them to be specifically given attention by the Devs, I'm rather scared of how badly they'd likely screw them up considering that the only thing they present the appearance of caring about is the PvP... and we all see how Amarr BS (and any other racial BS that is similarly hurt for PvE) is being left to go **** itself in that regards.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2134 - 2013-04-29 16:08:58 UTC
Korgan Nailo wrote:
Sure, let me dwell into it a bit.

It basically helped me to put things into perspective, as simple as that.

First, there are the amount of changes, by that presentation only here are the topics they listed:
- Starbases review in storages, subsystems, POSes, etc
Didn't noticed any "review". Just a couple of sugar bones to placate the crowd. Overall, POS'es not gonna change.

> - 0.0 Stations capabilities review in comparison to high sec
Yeah, especially in regard to refining yield.

> - Ship Rebalancing (Faction Frigates, Faction Cruisers, T1 Battlecruisers and T1 Battleships) *
Noticed. (Hard to not notice 100-pages threads of outright hate.)

> - Ore Mining Changes, adjusting mineral composition of ore types and new asteroid clusters
Yeah, yeah. Like it can help anything without review of refining rates.

> - Moon Mining and Tech 2 Materials bottlenecks review
Honestly, that's what I can't comment upon.

> - Ice Belts moved to Anomalies, with devblogs explaining
Noticed. Especially noticed the fact that these anomalies are bound to spawn in the same system.

> - New In-Flight Controls (fancy)
You misinterpreted this part. There's no inflight controls.

> - Jump Transitions, new Stargates (fancy)
A splash of mud into the face.

> - New Station Hangars and Undock Effects (fancy)
I could not care less.

> - New Music (fancy)
EVE has sound?

> - Capital Size Rigs
Predictable. Though, this is likely for good.

> - New Apocalypse Design (fancy)
Atrocious.

> - New Turret and Module Effects and Sounds (fancy)
EVE has sound?

> - New Pod and Death Transitions (fancy)
I could not care less.

> - New Navy Battlecruisers (this is a big one)
Yeah, I should **** with a boiling water? I'm not using battlecruisers.

> - Security Status Changes for Tags, buying your graces back with CONCORD
Ahha, exciting... Very-very exciting.

> - Updated Career Agent Missions for Exploration
With so much changes? Predictable.

> - New Modules and Skills for Scanning and Decryption
We'll have to see.

> - Probe Formations and Visual Results
Your problem is that you don't understand implication of this change. They are deliberately trying to kill cherry-picking in exploration.

> - New System Scanner (fancy, but also game play impact, awesome)
Can't comment, until I see it myself.

> - New Data and Relic Sites, instead of Archeology Sites, with new gameplay
Noticed. Especially noticed the new can chasing idea. Like we've had not enough problems as it is? It basically makes exploration useless, unless you have an alt in Noctis to catch these cans. People will just forget it and stick to 4/10 more strictly.

Quote:
So, many changes are just "fancy", but others, they really impact the core gameplay. Now, do me a favor and find the " * " (asterisk) I put up there in that list. Yeah, we are all ditching our heads out for that line.

It became then to me evident that CCP is putting a lot of changes, and if they are going to change more or less based on community feedback, that is something to be seen, but also how much impact and how all those changes will interact with each other. You can never foresee everything.

I already provided this feedback earlier, and I'll put it up here for you one more time: Consistent gameplay is more important, than any envisioned "goods".
When I spend years to train for specific ship, and it gets dragged under me on a short notice and replaced with something that doesn't even LOOKS like it can work, the least expected reaction is disappointment.

Quote:
Second, in several other videos during the Fanfest, you can see that a lot has been going on in the company and the game. Related to this particular issue, you can check this video http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/c/2203986 (Ship Rebalancing), at 42:20. The guy is mentioning he can't use Railguns without running out of cap, haha, he doesn't even have a clue of how bad it goes for lasers. Pity the question was posed as he did, because he completely screwed the question, but it is clear that many players do face the problem.

Anyway, the "answer" if I can put it like that, is: "that is the intended gameplay for those ships".

I haven't had an issue with hybrids. You trade one or two modules around and fitting still keeps solid.

Quote:
Also, in this Ship Rebalancing video, if you want to watch it all

Dude, it's always a shame, when someone says something like that. Why you all readily assuming, that people not watching these videos, because they don't want to? Can't there be other reasons?

[quote]you might come to conclusions of your own about CCP Rise and Fozzie work and starting relationship. I won't comment on it, but it definitely helped me have a clearer picture.

Yeah, I've read something to that extent already.

> Bottom line for me, after watching some of those videos was that there is a lot going on.
Of course. And the most apparent issue was that players feedback is being ignored by alot of people. Worse, wasn't even intended to be heard, it seems.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2135 - 2013-04-29 16:13:49 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

You are aware that Odyessy is giving the Apoc quite a hefty cap recharge buff (and a large capacitor), yes?

Wrong ship for your comparison, the Abaddon is the tank amarr ship you want when discussing cap issues with Rohks.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2136 - 2013-04-29 16:16:23 UTC
WestHam FC wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
WestHam FC wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
So far nothing has happened to the Nightmare directly. However, as large laser are becoming easier to fit (beams) and easier on cap (beams and pulses), the NM should see a slight buff from that.

We can hope, but it isn't like CCP to "buff" things without taking it away again. :) For me, Beams are irrelevant as they are not even close to as useful as Pulse.

I actually fly a Tachyon Nightmare in incursion fleets, and I've found that with Gleam Crystals and a Web, i have little issues hitting all but the fastest frigs (ie, the Schmaels which still do well over 200 m/s after web). And wit hthe reduced cap draw, I'll be able to remove the Eluctriation Rig I currently have on it for something else (I plan on using the Signal Focusing Kit to improve it's scan res since I run Vanguard sites).


How do you compensate for that 24km dead zone, where you coudlnt hit a house if it was moving? I tend ot use locus an meta rigs myself

Gleam Crystals and a web.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2137 - 2013-04-29 16:19:29 UTC
Korgan Nailo wrote:

Second, in several other videos during the Fanfest, you can see that a lot has been going on in the company and the game. Related to this particular issue, you can check this video http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/c/2203986 (Ship Rebalancing), at 42:20. The guy is mentioning he can't use Railguns without running out of cap, haha, he doesn't even have a clue of how bad it goes for lasers. Pity the question was posed as he did, because he completely screwed the question, but it is clear that many players do face the problem.

For someone's earlier question about a link and timestamp in relation to Fozzie being asked about PvE cap issues and pretty much brushing it aside.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2138 - 2013-04-29 16:23:24 UTC
John 1135 wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
I obviously haven't looked at the Nav Harb on test server yet, but the Nav Omen is actually cap stable perma-running it's 4 lasers by themselves with nothing fitted to help it's cap, so they actually balanced it's cap properly.

(hint hint WTF Abaddon?)

That's cos the Nomen had a cap reduction bonus on its lasers. Guess what's going away in Odyssey? (Take a look at the navy cruiser respec thread.)

No, I did my tests with the NOmen on the test server that has the proposed changes to it (ie, that "lack" of hull boosts for cap).
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2139 - 2013-04-29 16:24:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The post you quoted even had the words, "test server" in it...

And he mentioned having 4 turrets, which the TQ Navy Omen does not...

Yikes.

Since it is a kiting ship exclusively one can also assume that test was done using scorch, a T2 disruptor running and a MWD fitted, right?

I have a sneaking suspicion that its cap will behave like that of the Vagabond, with MWD being pulsed once in a while to stay near peak recharge .. but of course the rather critical difference is that the Nomen will be forced to fit cap modules in case of emergency MWD pulses or its damage drops even lower than it starts out with (lasers need cap after all Smile) whereas the Vagabond can generally ignore capping out.

Nope, did my test perma running MWD, Scorch Pulse (which have nasty cap penalty still), and disruptor all running.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#2140 - 2013-04-29 16:33:51 UTC
funny, you guys say you wanna do away with the split weapon bonus, yet you give the geddon a neut and a drone bonus.

the domi drone bonus is nice. why would you guys split our bonus?