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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2101 - 2013-04-28 14:11:43 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
[May i point out that alpha Maelstorm has more ehp than hellcat, since it can dedicate its rig slots to something other than rigs that just make it possible to fire your guns, it is much faster, has huge alpha, even has better (on paper) dps up to 45km with short range ammo, and can run its microwarp drive for 3 min and be stable at 80% while it is off, while on the other hand Abaddon can mwd around for about a min while using cap batteries constantly, and can fire its guns with mwd off for about 5 min again with constant use of cap batteries. Advantages of Abaddon are 10% more Em&thermal resist and 5% more kin&explosive, at least it was before the nerf, and better tracking that wont do you any good.

Ever since IT raped Test&Goons with 1400arty maels while being outnumbered 10 to 1 so many years ago everyone started using them, and the main reason they work is that you dont have to make any sacrifices at all while fitting them.

Thought I'd edit this slightly to provide proper attention to the pressing issues, especially since they apply for the other races Combat Battleships as well in comparison.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2102 - 2013-04-28 14:15:40 UTC
WestHam FC wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
So far nothing has happened to the Nightmare directly. However, as large laser are becoming easier to fit (beams) and easier on cap (beams and pulses), the NM should see a slight buff from that.

We can hope, but it isn't like CCP to "buff" things without taking it away again. :) For me, Beams are irrelevant as they are not even close to as useful as Pulse.

I actually fly a Tachyon Nightmare in incursion fleets, and I've found that with Gleam Crystals and a Web, i have little issues hitting all but the fastest frigs (ie, the Schmaels which still do well over 200 m/s after web). And wit hthe reduced cap draw, I'll be able to remove the Eluctriation Rig I currently have on it for something else (I plan on using the Signal Focusing Kit to improve it's scan res since I run Vanguard sites).
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2103 - 2013-04-28 14:18:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Ruze wrote:
I actually like some variation. Want to use rockets/missiles? We've got a few boats that can do that, but can still use lasers. Want to use drones? We've got a few boats that can do that, too, but still use lasers.

That's why I like the old mindset of different manufacturers making their own custom touches. Khanid ships are missiles and more mid slots. That kind of thing.

I'm not against variation. I personally even like the idea of an Amarr BS with the 'Geddon's proposed bonuses, regardless of what hull it's on, or possibly tweaking it to better use missiles alongside those drones.

I'm simply saying that even the Devs agree some of the changes they've already made are beyond broke yet are blatantly leaving them stand rather then addressing them, as I feel that this is the condemned fate of the Abaddon with it's massive cap issues and now a nerf of the only thing it had to balance them out, ie enough resists to provide the oppurtunity to tough it out. At least do something about it's cap issues! (Also I just love of CCP Fozzie completely glossed over that one person's questions during fanfest about cap issues in missions, providing the wonderful impression of "I don't give a flying ****.")


I didn't watch the entire video, do you have a link and time I can see that? Because if true, then I am about to ignite a s***storm of epic proportions.

I don't remember which one exactly beyond it's got both CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise going over all the upcoming "tiericide" rebalances, and the specific question was directly about Gallente hulls, but it still applied to the Abaddon since it was in relation to cap stability issues for mission grinders.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2104 - 2013-04-28 14:23:26 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Regolis wrote:
Was cruising around the feature / ideas section and finally looked that the new Navy Omen and Amarr Battlecruiser.
I won't insult you guys by asking guess what...
Yes that's right we have removed the laser -50% cap use and stuck on something guaranteed to break you cap with just guns.
Welcome to Amarr... get remote rep and remote power or go home.

I obviously haven't looked at the Nav Harb on test server yet, but the Nav Omen is actually cap stable perma-running it's 4 lasers by themselves with nothing fitted to help it's cap, so they actually balanced it's cap properly.

(hint hint WTF Abaddon?)


I remember you were testing the N-Omen. I also realize the ship was prolly designed around the idea of using pulses. When you stick medium beams on it things get ugly fast. Navy Harb will be the same.

I just personally can't understand the devs viewpoint on this. Beams aren't a little broken here's some cap reduction. Beams are severely broken. One of the easiest ways to see this on Live is Supply and Demand. Beam lasers are by far the cheapest weapons you can buy. Because no one wants them. That is usually a pretty unbiased determining factor.

Someone said in this forum "They're going to rebalance beams anyway". I'm all for that.
I just don't want to wait another 5 years for it to happen.

The trouble with the Amarr ship changes isn't just about the ships. The complete disregard by the devs over lasers, beams lasers in particular is the real issue.

I understand the hate for the Armageddon changes.They really did pretty much change the ship to fit their "vision".
But ripping off cap bonuses on ships that are pretty much dependent on them without changing lasers is fail.

My opinion is still that the metric they are using to "balance" lasers is broken for beam lasers.
How else can you explain that for YEARS beam laser being terribad yet no major changes to them?
Removing the -10% cap usage was the best thing they could have done. As it brings the glaring issue of just how broken these weapons are to light.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2105 - 2013-04-28 14:41:38 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
WestHam FC wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
So far nothing has happened to the Nightmare directly. However, as large laser are becoming easier to fit (beams) and easier on cap (beams and pulses), the NM should see a slight buff from that.

We can hope, but it isn't like CCP to "buff" things without taking it away again. :) For me, Beams are irrelevant as they are not even close to as useful as Pulse.

I actually fly a Tachyon Nightmare in incursion fleets, and I've found that with Gleam Crystals and a Web, i have little issues hitting all but the fastest frigs (ie, the Schmaels which still do well over 200 m/s after web). And wit hthe reduced cap draw, I'll be able to remove the Eluctriation Rig I currently have on it for something else (I plan on using the Signal Focusing Kit to improve it's scan res since I run Vanguard sites).


Any 5 year old can do the logic: "hmm tachyons are only used on ships with 4 turrets, unless we want a weapon system used by a single ship, we'd better make these things possible to fit on other amarr BS's" unless they think fitting arty 1400's instead is a smart design.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2106 - 2013-04-28 15:07:46 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

May i point out that alpha maelstorm has more ehp than hellcat, since it can dedicate its rig slots to something other than rigs that just make it possible to fire your guns, it is much faster, has huge alpha, even has better (on paper) dps up to 45km with short range ammo, and can run its microwarp drive for 3 min and be stable at 80% while it is off, while on the other hand Abaddon can mwd around for about a min while using cap batteries constantly, and can fire its guns with mwd off for about 5 min again with constant use of cap batteries. Advantages of Abaddon are 10% more Em&thermal resist and 5% more kin&explosive, at least it was before the nerf, and better tracking that wont do you any good.

Ever since IT raped Test&Goons with 1400arty maels while being outnumbered 10 to 1 so many years ago everyone started using them, and the main reason they work is that you dont have to make any sacrifices at all while fitting them.

Well, you make at least one - a Maelstrom cannot mount a full set of 1400mm arty IIs and a 100mn MWD without some kind of energy grid upgrade, and that's not counting anything else. Oh, and the cap's only good for 2m 23s at that point, so you won't be running it for 5mins straight without adding some sort of cap mod.

Throwing together some fits, the Mael needs a PG rig, the 'Baddon a PG mod and rig. The 'Baddon gets better DPS (and better applied DPS), because once you've added in sensor mods and so on the Meal doesn't have as much room for DPS mods as you might expect unless you're willing to have under 100K EHP (and we can then reduce the 'Baddon to match giving it extra mod space too). What the Meal does have is double the alpha, and infinite cap duration when not using the MWD.

Now, come Odessey the reduced power requirements for Tachs means the 'Baddon can lose the PG rig, which more than compensates for the lost resists. The Mael remains considerably faster, but has a much bigger signature radius (but both are big and slow enough that even fury cruise missiles will be getting good results on them).

Again, the fitting, while it remains aesthetically unpleasing isn't as bad as people are making out, and nor are Amarr battleships suffering as much as people claim. The upcoming buff to beams is going to help quite a bit. I do agree that a bit more relaxation of cap costs wouldn't go amiss, but it doesn't need to be much.


You sort of leave out that the Abaddon needs the PG mod even to fit the Tach's even with the latest changes (102% of PG) while the Mael does not. Now this is all well and good in a fleet environment with remote rep and cap but once you leave that environment even halfway the drawbacks really start to fester. The Mael can active shield tank with it's increased CPU over other BS's while the Abaddon receives no extra PG or cap to actively armor tank even forgetting the weaknesses of a single armor repper versus shield booster (forget about even firing your weapons with the repper active even if you can fit it).
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2107 - 2013-04-28 23:14:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That. Is exactly why the Amarr players are in such a fit over this. Because we are the only race with that kind of problem.

This is ok to you?
Try turning your MWD on in a Rokh and see how long you're still shooting for. Caldari hybrid boats aren't much better off than Amarr ships (the lower cap use by hybrids is countered by the terrible Caldari capacitors).
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2108 - 2013-04-28 23:17:10 UTC
WestHam FC wrote:
Unless I am reading it wrong, this...."buff" if you will, will mean end of the oldschool Apoc sniper elite. When I started, facing off against an Apoc at over 220k was a *****. I haven't been in 0.0 for a few years now, so I dont know if Apoc is still in use as a Sniper or not.


You don't snipe from much over 100km these days (except for maybe in Attack Battlecruisers), because combat probes and scanning is so fast that you cannot afford to give the other side the chance to warp in on top of you. Thus 200km+ Apocs and Rokhs aren't much of a thing any more.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2109 - 2013-04-28 23:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That. Is exactly why the Amarr players are in such a fit over this. Because we are the only race with that kind of problem.

This is ok to you?
Try turning your MWD on in a Rokh and see how long you're still shooting for. Caldari hybrid boats aren't much better off than Amarr ships (the lower cap use by hybrids is countered by the terrible Caldari capacitors).




Terrible Caldari capacitors, lol what? Lasers have triple the cap use as hybrids and ALL the Amarr ships have the same capacitor recharge as every other races BS's (across the BS roles). Comparing apples to apples the Rokh has the same capacitor recharge as the Abaddon and only 5% less total cap, yet the Abaddon is supposed to fire at triple the cap cost (forget about active armor tanking and having to fit 2 of them to be on par with a booster on a rokh).
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2110 - 2013-04-28 23:23:05 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That. Is exactly why the Amarr players are in such a fit over this. Because we are the only race with that kind of problem.

This is ok to you?
Try turning your MWD on in a Rokh and see how long you're still shooting for. Caldari hybrid boats aren't much better off than Amarr ships (the lower cap use by hybrids is countered by the terrible Caldari capacitors).




They need to fix battleship mwd's they are nowhere near as effective as they are on smaller ships.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2111 - 2013-04-28 23:41:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

So I've been catching up on the thread a little this morning. I think you all deserve some comment at least, so here you go!

For those of you still concerned about the cap issues that Amarr will now face with both of its turret based options: we hear you. We are really caught here because a significant number of players find the cap bonus less exciting than a bonus like tracking. That said, its a really important bonus because of what it allows laser ships to do. We've been talking with the CSM, watching this thread, and doing experimenting of our own with the new ships internally to try and figure out how much of a problem it is. So far, we remain convinced that you will enjoy the Apoc more, on average, without the cap bonus. We want to let it go to public testing this way and then adjust off feedback at that point if there's major problems.

For those of you concerned about the idea that Gallente got revisions because they asked, and Amarr are not, I urge you to see the two as in completely different situations. The first set of Gallente ships were not just controversial or "off race", they were a broad disappointment. Once people began to point out that they simply fell short, we looked at them and tended to agree, so we were happy to go back and work on them some more. Amarr is in a different place where its not that they are simple "bad" ships, more that there is a lot of disagreement about how this race line should be structured. Thats understandable. We are in a really difficult position of wanting to offer new options for Amarr pilots, despite them having 2 iconic ships and one fleet staple. That means no matter where we go (for instance if the Apoc had become the drone ship) someone is going to be unhappy.

We, along with many players, feel that this an exciting direction for Amarr. I would ask that you guys accept this draft as more or less set, and then help us out with testing once these go to a public server.

I do appreciate your feedback and promise that its not falling on deaf ears.





translation: we MIGHT change the ammar BS bonuses after some poor corporation takes out 60 apocs fitted with over a bill in modules and gets smashed as they run out of cap before denting their enemies healthRoll

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2112 - 2013-04-28 23:43:10 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:

Terrible Caldari capacitors, lol what? Lasers have triple the cap use as hybrids and ALL the Amarr ships have the same capacitor recharge as every other races BS's (across the BS roles). Comparing apples to apples the Rokh has the same capacitor recharge as the Abaddon and only 5% less total cap, yet the Abaddon is supposed to fire at triple the cap cost (forget about active armor tanking and having to fit 2 of them to be on par with a booster on a rokh).

You are aware that Odyessy is giving the Apoc quite a hefty cap recharge buff (and a large capacitor), yes?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2113 - 2013-04-28 23:43:22 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That. Is exactly why the Amarr players are in such a fit over this. Because we are the only race with that kind of problem.

This is ok to you?
Try turning your MWD on in a Rokh and see how long you're still shooting for. Caldari hybrid boats aren't much better off than Amarr ships (the lower cap use by hybrids is countered by the terrible Caldari capacitors).




They need to fix battleship mwd's they are nowhere near as effective as they are on smaller ships.

thats because there is no efficient way to propel a 3 billion ton hunk of scrap through space as easily as a 500 ton ball of scrap
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2114 - 2013-04-28 23:51:45 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:

Terrible Caldari capacitors, lol what? Lasers have triple the cap use as hybrids and ALL the Amarr ships have the same capacitor recharge as every other races BS's (across the BS roles). Comparing apples to apples the Rokh has the same capacitor recharge as the Abaddon and only 5% less total cap, yet the Abaddon is supposed to fire at triple the cap cost (forget about active armor tanking and having to fit 2 of them to be on par with a booster on a rokh).

You are aware that Odyessy is giving the Apoc quite a hefty cap recharge buff (and a large capacitor), yes?


If by hefty, you mean a 8% increase in capacitor recharge rate, and by buff, you mean shrinking it's max capacitor?
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2115 - 2013-04-28 23:52:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Being called Gallentean right after Gallente were saying we hate Gallente is pretty awesome.

You're right about the primary racial roles, but Amarr has been establishing a stronger drone representation throughout tiericide. Tormentor -> Dragoon -> Arbitrator -> Prophecy. And Khanid has always existed as a missile focused division of Amarr. I don't think we are straying far at all from Amarr offensive system organization with this battleship line.




/me looks at his dragoons bonuses: Traits
Destroyer skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level
20% bonus to energy vampire and energy neutralizer transfer range per level


still seems like vamps and neuts are the main secondary.....

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2116 - 2013-04-28 23:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:

Terrible Caldari capacitors, lol what? Lasers have triple the cap use as hybrids and ALL the Amarr ships have the same capacitor recharge as every other races BS's (across the BS roles). Comparing apples to apples the Rokh has the same capacitor recharge as the Abaddon and only 5% less total cap, yet the Abaddon is supposed to fire at triple the cap cost (forget about active armor tanking and having to fit 2 of them to be on par with a booster on a rokh).

You are aware that Odyessy is giving the Apoc quite a hefty cap recharge buff (and a large capacitor), yes?


I was comparing like ships across the races, the Abaddon's tank and mobility match up way more closely than the Apoc. The Apoc is closer to the Raven. But as someone else said, even the Apoc's differences don't come close to making up for laser's TRIPLE cap cost compared to hybrid.
WestHam FC
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2117 - 2013-04-29 00:29:19 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
WestHam FC wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
So far nothing has happened to the Nightmare directly. However, as large laser are becoming easier to fit (beams) and easier on cap (beams and pulses), the NM should see a slight buff from that.

We can hope, but it isn't like CCP to "buff" things without taking it away again. :) For me, Beams are irrelevant as they are not even close to as useful as Pulse.

I actually fly a Tachyon Nightmare in incursion fleets, and I've found that with Gleam Crystals and a Web, i have little issues hitting all but the fastest frigs (ie, the Schmaels which still do well over 200 m/s after web). And wit hthe reduced cap draw, I'll be able to remove the Eluctriation Rig I currently have on it for something else (I plan on using the Signal Focusing Kit to improve it's scan res since I run Vanguard sites).


How do you compensate for that 24km dead zone, where you coudlnt hit a house if it was moving? I tend ot use locus an meta rigs myself
WestHam FC
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2118 - 2013-04-29 00:34:52 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
WestHam FC wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
So far nothing has happened to the Nightmare directly. However, as large laser are becoming easier to fit (beams) and easier on cap (beams and pulses), the NM should see a slight buff from that.

We can hope, but it isn't like CCP to "buff" things without taking it away again. :) For me, Beams are irrelevant as they are not even close to as useful as Pulse.

I actually fly a Tachyon Nightmare in incursion fleets, and I've found that with Gleam Crystals and a Web, i have little issues hitting all but the fastest frigs (ie, the Schmaels which still do well over 200 m/s after web). And wit hthe reduced cap draw, I'll be able to remove the Eluctriation Rig I currently have on it for something else (I plan on using the Signal Focusing Kit to improve it's scan res since I run Vanguard sites).


Any 5 year old can do the logic: "hmm tachyons are only used on ships with 4 turrets, unless we want a weapon system used by a single ship, we'd better make these things possible to fit on other amarr BS's" unless they think fitting arty 1400's instead is a smart design.


personally I hate tachy's, yes they have a much higher alpha than pulse, but their normal damage is shite. Not to mention the fact, until you go through the pain of trying to fit that last tachy on an Abby, you dont know pain :D
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#2119 - 2013-04-29 00:49:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
They'd be much happier about getting that drone/neut boat in a new hull instead of changing what they know and love.


Yeah I mean I would love if we could have new art for every rebalance so that "legacy" ships like the Armageddon could stay the way they always have been. Its easy to see why this would be impossible though, right? Resource drain on art teams here would be immense, but more importantly, the game would quickly become an impossible maze of ships. If we want to be serious about refining the quality of balance in Eve, we would quickly have tens of ships in each class as we iterated through them.

Fun for some I'm sure, but probably not good for the game overall =P


CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
CCP Rise are there any plans to add new disruption ships to battleship lineup in due time of course?


I think its likely that somewhere down the line there will be a battleship sized disruption option for each race. We've talked about this a little in relation to these changes, but I think its possible that it will be part of a different pass later on. Whether that means new t1 hulls, new t2 hulls, or using something that already exists, I have no idea.

Its on our minds though!



and this is the reason the geddon should stay as laser brawler, it doesn't even look like a big arbitrator!

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#2120 - 2013-04-29 01:38:16 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Korgan Nailo wrote:
I've been watching some of the Fanfest videos, and I would like to share one in particular:

http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/395925361 at 3:01:49.

That might put into perspective how much has been going on for Odyssey.

I hope it helps to improve moods around a bit, it did for me! =)

Could you please elaborate for us, what was that, what you though would change our mood even slightly?

Hey Tonto,

Sure, let me dwell into it a bit.

It basically helped me to put things into perspective, as simple as that.

First, there are the amount of changes, by that presentation only here are the topics they listed:
- Starbases review in storages, subsystems, POSes, etc
- 0.0 Stations capabilities review in comparison to high sec
- Ship Rebalancing (Faction Frigates, Faction Cruisers, T1 Battlecruisers and T1 Battleships) *
- Ore Mining Changes, adjusting mineral composition of ore types and new asteroid clusters
- Moon Mining and Tech 2 Materials bottlenecks review
- Ice Belts moved to Anomalies, with devblogs explaining
- New In-Flight Controls (fancy)
- Jump Transitions, new Stargates (fancy)
- New Station Hangars and Undock Effects (fancy)
- New Music (fancy)
- Capital Size Rigs
- New Apocalypse Design (fancy)
- New Turret and Module Effects and Sounds (fancy)
- New Pod and Death Transitions (fancy)
- New Navy Battlecruisers (this is a big one)
- Security Status Changes for Tags, buying your graces back with CONCORD
- Updated Career Agent Missions for Exploration
- New Modules and Skills for Scanning and Decryption
- Probe Formations and Visual Results
- New System Scanner (fancy, but also game play impact, awesome)
- New Data and Relic Sites, instead of Archeology Sites, with new gameplay

So, many changes are just "fancy", but others, they really impact the core gameplay. Now, do me a favor and find the " * " (asterisk) I put up there in that list. Yeah, we are all ditching our heads out for that line.

It became then to me evident that CCP is putting a lot of changes, and if they are going to change more or less based on community feedback, that is something to be seen, but also how much impact and how all those changes will interact with each other. You can never foresee everything.

Second, in several other videos during the Fanfest, you can see that a lot has been going on in the company and the game. Related to this particular issue, you can check this video http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/c/2203986 (Ship Rebalancing), at 42:20. The guy is mentioning he can't use Railguns without running out of cap, haha, he doesn't even have a clue of how bad it goes for lasers. Pity the question was posed as he did, because he completely screwed the question, but it is clear that many players do face the problem.

Anyway, the "answer" if I can put it like that, is: "that is the intended gameplay for those ships".

Also, in this Ship Rebalancing video, if you want to watch it all, you might come to conclusions of your own about CCP Rise and Fozzie work and starting relationship. I won't comment on it, but it definitely helped me have a clearer picture.

Bottom line for me, after watching some of those videos was that there is a lot going on. I've done my fair share of hours and math to prove a case here and there, spent some time in Duality with a few others that are also in this thread and tried to make it quite evident the huge discrepancies in capacitor, while others also pointed for power grid issues. I do believe we did our best to present these points, and trolls aside, they are here well documented in the thread for whoever wants to see it.

Now, honestly, it is up to CCP.

P.S.: in one of the videos they even mentioned about making a bet about which thread would be the biggest one, and I think it was Fozzie who bet at the Amarr. =)

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