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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#881 - 2013-04-26 16:41:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
DID you checked taht graph he posted? There is no place where tempest can do that inside disruptor range. And on fleet fights the signature will not help the tempest because of range. Signature is very useful when you are fighting dreads, that is true, but the megathron doe snto have a large signature as well.

Even him admited that this megathron vs tempest comparisson was worthless.

BTW, I wouldn't expect anything but torps to outdps blasters in disruptor range.

Competitors of the Tempest are the 5 midslots BS IMO (high utility, not so fleet BS) : Typhoon and Hyperion. The Typhoon will need its mid slots to apply its torp damages. The Hyperion though will eat the Tempest in almost any situation, the exception being if you need to hit far (which is still a valuable quality of AC). So the Tempest may be a little more versatile than the Hyperion, at the price of a lot less effectiveness at closer ranges.

But is this due to the Hyperion being OP ? Or to the Tempest being underpowered ? I think the 10% damage bonuses CCP used in the tiericide removed a good part of the interest in the double damage bonuses of minmatar ships. The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#882 - 2013-04-26 17:15:30 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
DID you checked taht graph he posted? There is no place where tempest can do that inside disruptor range. And on fleet fights the signature will not help the tempest because of range. Signature is very useful when you are fighting dreads, that is true, but the megathron doe snto have a large signature as well.

Even him admited that this megathron vs tempest comparisson was worthless.

BTW, I wouldn't expect anything but torps to outdps blasters in disruptor range.

Competitors of the Tempest are the 5 midslots BS IMO (high utility, not so fleet BS) : Typhoon and Hyperion. The Typhoon will need its mid slots to apply its torp damages. The Hyperion though will eat the Tempest in almost any situation, the exception being if you need to hit far (which is still a valuable quality of AC). So the Tempest may be a little more versatile than the Hyperion, at the price of a lot less effectiveness at closer ranges.

But is this due to the Hyperion being OP ? Or to the Tempest being underpowered ? I think the 10% damage bonuses CCP used in the tiericide removed a good part of the interest in the double damage bonuses of minmatar ships. The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).



Beign able to outdps the blaster ship only at ranges where your damage is already 40% of your base damage is not really powerful advantage. Specially since that role is completely OWNED by Pulse lasers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#883 - 2013-04-26 17:18:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Beign able to outdps the blaster ship only at ranges where your damage is already 40% of your base damage is not really powerful advantage. Specially since that role is completely OWNED by Pulse lasers.

What would be the role of pulse or blasters if AC could outdps them in their niche ? AC are better at close range than pulse, and better at long range than blasters. That's what it has always been to my knowledge, and that can't be different.

Now, if you are saying that blasters superiority range over AC is too long, then I will agree.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#884 - 2013-04-26 17:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Beign able to outdps the blaster ship only at ranges where your damage is already 40% of your base damage is not really powerful advantage. Specially since that role is completely OWNED by Pulse lasers.

What would be the role of pulse or blasters if AC could outdps them in their niche ? AC are better at close range than pulse, and better at long range than blasters. That's what it has always been to my knowledge, and that can't be different.

Now, if you are saying that blasters superiority range over AC is too long, then I will agree.



I do not want AC to outdps lasers or blasters in their ROle. Just statign that its FAKE advantage that peopel say the tempest have oevr blaster boats. And taht the ship need another REAL role, since the fantasy of tempest beign a great damage projection ship is just a fantasy.

being second everywhere is the recepy for FAILURE in this game. IT could not be IF the tempest was faster than any gallente or ammar boat so that It coudl decide the range... but Nooo megatron is faster.... hyperion is faster (with MWD overheated)....

Tempest need to be FASTER and weight LESS than megatron otherwise it wil be utterly outclassed (specially when you bring in the drones difference as well)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#885 - 2013-04-26 19:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
But is this due to the Hyperion being OP ? Or to the Tempest being underpowered ? I think the 10% damage bonuses CCP used in the tiericide removed a good part of the interest in the double damage bonuses of minmatar ships. The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).


Hmm, I think Nikon and Patern are overplaying the weakness of the Tempest slightly. I've played around with both of them on the new EFT and they are definitely a lot closer than what is being pointed out. The Tempest out dps's the mega at longer ranges when the mega is fitted with 425mm railguns. Granted the Tempest needs to be at around 20km where as the Mega can apply the damage at a much longer range with rails so that is where the rail win out. But the Tempest is doing quite a lot more dps (around 200dps more) and has much better tracking. This is using a real world fit both with two damage mods.

At close range I've got the Tempest is a little under the Mega's dps (around 100dps less), although the mega has to be right on top of the target, wheras the Tempest can sit back at around 20km. So the Tempest is better at damage application but cant put out quite as much as the mega.

Where the Tempest loses out a lot is in the tank, with over 30k EHP more less. Now is that a fair trade off is what you need to be looking at when comparing if they are balanced against each other or not.

Another aspect of the Tempest is it is far more difficult to fit with regards to PG and CPU. Fitting launchers and CPU becomes a real issue, fitting nuets or vamps and PG is limiting.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).


I think the Tempest definitely does need a falloff bonus and combining the damage bonuses and giving it a boost slightly. Looking at how it is going to be used the extra falloff is going to be crucial in my opinion, along with the agility and speed to make up for its lack of tank. Using the Tempest will certainly require a lot more skill than the mega to get the most out of it, and a bit of extra agility and falloff will make it that little bit easier and practical to use in real situations.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#886 - 2013-04-27 03:43:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Beign able to outdps the blaster ship only at ranges where your damage is already 40% of your base damage is not really powerful advantage. Specially since that role is completely OWNED by Pulse lasers.

What would be the role of pulse or blasters if AC could outdps them in their niche ? AC are better at close range than pulse, and better at long range than blasters. That's what it has always been to my knowledge, and that can't be different.

Now, if you are saying that blasters superiority range over AC is too long, then I will agree.



I do not want AC to outdps lasers or blasters in their ROle. Just statign that its FAKE advantage that peopel say the tempest have oevr blaster boats. And taht the ship need another REAL role, since the fantasy of tempest beign a great damage projection ship is just a fantasy.

being second everywhere is the recepy for FAILURE in this game. IT could not be IF the tempest was faster than any gallente or ammar boat so that It coudl decide the range... but Nooo megatron is faster.... hyperion is faster (with MWD overheated)....

Tempest need to be FASTER and weight LESS than megatron otherwise it wil be utterly outclassed (specially when you bring in the drones difference as well)

What drone difference? If you haven't noticed, th mega can't field as much as a phoon, however I will happily trade the mega's tiny speed advantage for it to swap drone bays with the phoon.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#887 - 2013-04-27 04:57:53 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Beign able to outdps the blaster ship only at ranges where your damage is already 40% of your base damage is not really powerful advantage. Specially since that role is completely OWNED by Pulse lasers.

What would be the role of pulse or blasters if AC could outdps them in their niche ? AC are better at close range than pulse, and better at long range than blasters. That's what it has always been to my knowledge, and that can't be different.

Now, if you are saying that blasters superiority range over AC is too long, then I will agree.



I do not want AC to outdps lasers or blasters in their ROle. Just statign that its FAKE advantage that peopel say the tempest have oevr blaster boats. And taht the ship need another REAL role, since the fantasy of tempest beign a great damage projection ship is just a fantasy.

being second everywhere is the recepy for FAILURE in this game. IT could not be IF the tempest was faster than any gallente or ammar boat so that It coudl decide the range... but Nooo megatron is faster.... hyperion is faster (with MWD overheated)....

Tempest need to be FASTER and weight LESS than megatron otherwise it wil be utterly outclassed (specially when you bring in the drones difference as well)

What drone difference? If you haven't noticed, th mega can't field as much as a phoon, however I will happily trade the mega's tiny speed advantage for it to swap drone bays with the phoon.


He is just a whinematard, nothing more. He lies and makes up false facts if it somehow help him show his matar ships are up.
Just another fully biased matar player thats all , best thing to do is to ignore him.
Alsyth
#888 - 2013-04-27 15:52:21 UTC

Phoon looks efficient but not minmatar.

If you want to kill its ability to use 3 weapon systems, at least leave it with two and not one. Give its drones back.

Maybe 125/125 so it has to make a choice between versatility and full dps, or else it would be a bit OP.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#889 - 2013-04-27 16:06:13 UTC
Alsyth wrote:

Phoon looks efficient but not minmatar.

If you want to kill its ability to use 3 weapon systems, at least leave it with two and not one. Give its drones back.

Maybe 125/125 so it has to make a choice between versatility and full dps, or else it would be a bit OP.



It still has it's turret hardpoints, it's the drones that make it not minmatar like, take a look at the other missile ships with a sizeable drone bay, besides the cyclone (I think?) None of the use a full flight of drones for that size of ship (breacher can't use 5 lights, bellicose can't use 5 meds and the same for the loki, however again I'm unsure of the cyclone.) At the most, the phoon only needs 100/100.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Alsyth
#890 - 2013-04-27 16:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Drake Doe wrote:
Alsyth wrote:

Phoon looks efficient but not minmatar.

If you want to kill its ability to use 3 weapon systems, at least leave it with two and not one. Give its drones back.

Maybe 125/125 so it has to make a choice between versatility and full dps, or else it would be a bit OP.



It still has it's turret hardpoints, it's the drones that make it not minmatar like, take a look at the other missile ships with a sizeable drone bay, besides the cyclone (I think?) None of the use a full flight of drones for that size of ship (breacher can't use 5 lights, bellicose can't use 5 meds and the same for the loki, however again I'm unsure of the cyclone.) At the most, the phoon only needs 100/100.


Edit:

Cyclone has been given full bandwidth, 50/50.
Same on Typhoon would allow for some versatility, either full dps or medium and spares.

The turrets are a joke (unbonused, with only one utility high...).
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#891 - 2013-04-27 18:25:51 UTC
Alsyth wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Alsyth wrote:

Phoon looks efficient but not minmatar.

If you want to kill its ability to use 3 weapon systems, at least leave it with two and not one. Give its drones back.

Maybe 125/125 so it has to make a choice between versatility and full dps, or else it would be a bit OP.



It still has it's turret hardpoints, it's the drones that make it not minmatar like, take a look at the other missile ships with a sizeable drone bay, besides the cyclone (I think?) None of the use a full flight of drones for that size of ship (breacher can't use 5 lights, bellicose can't use 5 meds and the same for the loki, however again I'm unsure of the cyclone.) At the most, the phoon only needs 100/100.


Edit:

Cyclone has been given full bandwidth, 50/50.
Same on Typhoon would allow for some versatility, either full dps or medium and spares.

The turrets are a joke (unbonused, with only one utility high...).

The cyclone only gets a full flight because it is suppose to be an even more powerful version of another ship, which the typhoon isn't, and a full bay should be a trait of drone boats/drone races, of whicg the typhoon is neither, it also has more room to place auxiliary unbonused weapons, which a full flight of unbonused drones is equal to.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#892 - 2013-04-27 20:49:49 UTC
CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#893 - 2013-04-27 21:07:03 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????


Ye, shieldmodules require less PG, so you can easily fit artillery. Also, a shieldhyperion can currently fit 8 425mm t2-rails without any issue. What is the problem again?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#894 - 2013-04-27 21:08:39 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????

whohohoo stop right there, who do you think you are , questioning matar ships ability to fit their ships?:O
It is the right of the choosen race to be able fit whatevery they want to fit onto their ships. If you think matar ships are so good ,fly matar yourself too , but dont come here whining when you need to learn lvl2 fitting skills to be able to fit them fully.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#895 - 2013-04-27 21:10:58 UTC
Alsyth wrote:


Edit:

Cyclone has been given full bandwidth, 50/50.
Same on Typhoon would allow for some versatility, either full dps or medium and spares.

The turrets are a joke (unbonused, with only one utility high...).

would allow some versatility... oh god how many times i heared this from matars ,when they wanted to justify unneeded boosts on their ships
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#896 - 2013-04-27 21:12:57 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????


Ye, shieldmodules require less PG, so you can easily fit artillery. Also, a shieldhyperion can currently fit 8 425mm t2-rails without any issue. What is the problem again?

If you haven't noticed it's meant to be shield but it has much less pg than the other armor bs meant for durability.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#897 - 2013-04-27 21:48:20 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????


I think the problem was not mael having a lot of PG, but Amarr having not enough PG to fit beams.

...and they adressed it too: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224896&find=unread

After changes an apoc can fit a full rack of megabeams and will have more spare PG than a Mael. Though having a full rack of beams has some other issues, which is outside scope of this thread.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#898 - 2013-04-27 22:06:18 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????


I think the problem was not mael having a lot of PG, but Amarr having not enough PG to fit beams.

...and they adressed it too: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224896&find=unread

After changes an apoc can fit a full rack of megabeams and will have more spare PG than a Mael. Though having a full rack of beams has some other issues, which is outside scope of this thread.


have you seen the cpu on tachyon beams and mega beams its more than torp launchers need so its not just powergrid problems... then theres the cap ... and the range isn't particularly great either there is very little reason to use them over scorch.
Especially the short range high damage ammo is a waste of time its range is worse than conflag.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

BABARR
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#899 - 2013-04-27 22:47:19 UTC
Deerin wrote:
[quote=Jonas Sukarala]

I think the problem was not mael having a lot of PG, but Amarr having not enough PG to fit beams.

...and they adressed it too: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224896&find=unread

After changes an apoc can fit a full rack of megabeams and will have more spare PG than a Mael. Though having a full rack of beams has some other issues, which is outside scope of this thread.


that where you are wrong.
The probleme IS the mael got too much PWG, able to fit biggest gun (close or long range) AND : full tank +speed+capbooster on close, buffer+MWD on long range, whith full gyrol/TE.

When you have to fit RCU, or powergrid rig on other battleship when you want biggest snipe gun, or a very small tank/no MWD/no cap booster if you want biggest close range gun.

That why you have these ugly "alpha fleet" in 0,0.

Maelstrom close range whith enought powergrid to fit 650 instead 800 whith tank, and able to fit only 1200 whith a buffer/MWD, could be a good tweak. And able to fit 1400 only whitout tank, or RCU, like all other BS.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#900 - 2013-04-28 00:31:28 UTC
Gal'o Sengen wrote:
An active tank bonus on the Typhoon is an absurdly terrible idea. It cannot fit dual ASB's, and its Capacitor is far too weak to sustain a cap based tank. Giving it an active tank bonus means either forcing it into using double Cap Boosters, thus completely destroying any utility it has while also gimping its tank to an insane degree, or it means reversing its Mid/Low slot layout, which makes it a crappier Raven.

Giving it an Armor rep bonus is an equally bad idea, because simply put, nobody would use it because the ship is better Shield tanked.

One ASB simply does not cut it on a BS with 5 mids. Your resists are too low to keep up with incoming DPS, and your buffer is too small to survive a reload.


Obviously its slot arrangement would be different with this version, probably 6 mids and 6 lows or something similar.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.