Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'm pretty much out of math for now on the whole Amarr debacle.
The capacitor / weapon firing costs aren't going to change unless they suddenly wake up and see it.
Considering things have been like this for atleast 5 years, I doubt that they will do something reasonable like change the reduction on lasers to -30%.
All said and done their new favorite phrase seems to be "damage projection".
It looks to me like they have already decided that the inherent tracking bonus lasers have are "balanced" for both their huge fitting costs and insane power usage.
This will pretty much go live the way it is and within 6 months to a year you can expect them to rip the -50% cap use off all the Amarr ships.

I've seen it. Very bad piece of craftsmanship.

Oh I'm far from done. Just waiting for them to either make changes on Duality or Sisi.
Until something changes I don't know a way of attacking the problem.

1) The Armageddon changes are pretty much set in stone.You could see that from how defensive Rise was on stage. He had an idea, people didn't like it, so he dug in and doubled down.

2) CCP can't seem to differentiate Pulse Lasers and Beam Lasers. Pulse, for the most part, are ok. They could some tweaks but they aren't in a bad place. Beams are so broken the best they'll prolly be able to manage is a bandaid. Here is where things get downright ugly. Beams have been broken for better than 5 years. During that entire time CCP either couldn't see that they were broken or in their "metrics" they're not broken.

Now point 2 is down right scary. That means either none of the devs actually play Amarr enough to realize that they're broken or in their "metric" the value of tracking is so high that the weapon is considered to have 2 damage modifiers for the purpose of balancing.

Now I personally would like to see the metric they are using for balance because I think it's flat out busted.

Like I was saying in my other post. Damage Projection. Listening to them talk about tracking bonuses like they're considered either equal to or CLOSE to equal to rate of fire or straight up damage bonuses pretty much sums it up guys.

In the past we've had devs post solid numbers for why X is X or Y is Y. I would really like to know their stance on this.

Tracking bonus \= Damage or ROF bonus

Anyone who knows how damage is applied knows that. Woop-to-do! I can hit them when they fly faster. However I still can't hit them for anything. This is such an improvement! *sarcasm*

The Apocalypse is a SNIPING boat not a close in brawler. The reason it is used that way is the draconian and broken state of beam lasers. If you can't see that I 'request' that the devs have to play Amarr, and use fits we come up with. Then we get to shoot them and demonstrate to them first-hand how crappy they are. After a few weeks I am sure they will be singing a new tone. All in favor?

Since CCP-Rise seems to be so set on ignoring our feedback and dislike for the NEW Armageddon: we need to plan how to 'convince' him. I think that if we don't fly it that would go a long way. Secondly, we need to come up with a strategy to "shaft" those ships regularly. That way, he will have to see the 'metrics' and agree with us. Thoughts?

Since the new watch word is "Damage Projection", I have a perfect solution for you. MISSILES! Best damage projection in the game over their effective range. So buff missiles to a new level of OP stupidity. Now that of course would logically not go over well with the Amarr, Gallente and some Minmatar pilots. But hey, you are already shafting the Amarr pilots. The Gallente are getting what they whine for. Now it is a time for Caldari and Minmatar missile boats to be AWESOME! (Sarcasm implied)

The goal of balancing is that the ships of an equal potential to use the best system for that hull. Amarr ships have been unable to compete in long-range fights due to issues with beam lasers. Gallente have their cake and can eat it too. Caldari are shafted, just like Amarr. And Minmatar..oops...mean WINMATAR, are once again getting and eating their cake.

So now i ask you what in God's name is your childish problem with Amarr and Caldari?! Do those two races the same care that you keep giving those whiny bratty Gallente and Winmatar. Otherwise, you aren't balancing and you would then be a bunch of liars.

Convince whom? From fanfest presentation, it was rather obvious that CCP Rise was set as scapegoat, and the original idea isn't his own.

Sarcasm was implied throughout that second half of the post... I am well aware that you guys don't like the change to the Domi, Mega or Hyperion. Neither do I. However, I am correct to point out that Gallente ships are not getting shafted nearly as bad as Caldari or Amarr in this expansion.

I think that you can't disagree with that.

As to whom to convince, that would probably mean CCP in general. Unless someone knows someone to spill the beans and let everyone know whom the culprit is.

Sorry, I guess I can't always recognize internet sarcasm completely, but since I cross trained I feel the impact of the scorpion and raven changes they're still not as good as the new Mega(and **** compared to the old one). Unfortunately even though we're not losing as much we still feel the nerf.

Since this is the Amarr thread I will be as brief as possible.

Caldari ships are as you are surely aware the least used in PvP (always have been). The only Caldari ships that saw any significant use in pvp are the Rohk (sniper) Drake (goon mob fleets) and Tengu (solo-mostly). The Drake was nerfed via the HML changes last expansion. Yet still retains a good ability for tanking for a BC (presently pre-Odyssey). The Rohk has traditionally been used as a long range sniping boat. That has a similarly strong ability to be tanked as the drake. Tengu being T3 is self-explanatory.

Caldari ships rely heavily on a passive shield tank with RR support in fleet scenarios. As there is no boosting bonus to any Caldari ship. This means that caldari ships rely heavily on their resistances: bonuses/amplifiers/hardeners. If you reduce one of those you significantly reduce the ship's ability to tank. This is especially true for the EM damage set. Which would otherwise be a 0% hole. Even a "small" 5% change on that value can make or break the passive tanks used on Caldari ships.

That said, reducing the resistance bonus wouldn't be as bad if the shield hp was buff accordingly. Which it wasn't. Therefore, the Caldari are getting a tank or shield nerf. The one saving quality about using Caldari boats in pvp. Missiles of course have their own problems which I am not going to go into here. But I hope that helps answer your question.

For further information I would recommend you see the Caldari BS, Resistance and CML threads.
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Not a problem! It isn't always clear and I could have done a better job communicating that.

I agree with you there. I am very disappointed all around with the changes proposed...Seems almost like they used the Wheel of Fortune to make decisions. Technically, CCP has been going about the balancing wrongly.

Balancing: is a process that follows this flow-chart

1) Identify the existing strengths and weaknesses

2) Identify the problems that are existing

3) Buff to bring up to par across the board

4) Confirm that everything in the category is at par

5) Test and gain solid data

6) Analyze data to determine if application meets intended use

7) If not in compliance: Evaluate where problem(s) lie => 7b) Form plan to address => 7c) Implement plan => 7d) Test

8) In compliance: Go to bar and celebrate a job well done => 8a) Let players enjoy and gather data for possible future use

This is a modification of the flowcharts used for problem-solving. However, it doesn't seem like CCP made use of the standard.

Tracking becomes less and less important the further out you go, which is why tracking/range is the god combo of all time, effectively allows you to hit what you want, when you want within the entire range envelope.
But yes, laser tracking is generally abysmal compared to projectiles/hybrids and it should be addressed at some point (read: next years laser revision), but for now the better range mitigates the issue somewhat and is of secondary concern as long as you don't have to cap to even activate the damn things

Again, because my last post was cut off: It's not that there's a lack of options, it's that the races are being homogenized; which is to say they all look alike due to the changes. It's not about us not having options within our race, it's about us not wanting or needing them, at least not in the regular racial tier lineup.

We all should have been able to read when we began this game what the different races had to offer as far as offense/defense. Some of us cross-trained, some did not. I initially started with Gallente, then moved to Amarr. At this point, the only ships I don't fly are Minmatar, because I don't have a use for them at the moment.

How about some visualization on what part of the issue is?

Let's say I have a shotgun that I use for long range sporting clays. Let's say that the manufacturer recalls this gun for upgrades, and then ships it back to me with a shorter synthetic barrel meant for use with non-lethal plastic bb's. Let's say that there is no way to modify this gun back to it's original type. Instead of a nice gun that had a few good uses, I now have this ****** plastic thing that is only good at one thing. Woo, color me excited. Now I have to buy something else to do what I used to with that old gun.

Do you see the issue yet? There are changes being made that are pointless and counter-productive. You did misunderstand the word homogenization to an extreme degree. Then, instead of admitting your mistake, you went on to say that we didn't explain it well enough. Comprehension is on your end, not ours. I don't mean this in a derisive way, but stick to the topic. The topic is every race is slowly being made the same. Homogenization. Sameness. It was never about choices within the tier being needed.