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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1961 - 2013-04-26 20:36:24 UTC
Kharamete wrote:
And I would probably sub my inactive Khanid character again who, unlike this character, does actually undock and enjoy the short, short line of pure Khanid ships like the Sacrilege, Vengeance, etc. There is more to Amarr that just lasers and armor.

Tell that to my Sacrilege, ok? If you tried to make a point, you failed. Especially - mentioning Khanid in Amarr thread.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Kharamete
Royal Assent
#1962 - 2013-04-26 20:41:20 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Kharamete wrote:
And I would probably sub my inactive Khanid character again who, unlike this character, does actually undock and enjoy the short, short line of pure Khanid ships like the Sacrilege, Vengeance, etc. There is more to Amarr that just lasers and armor.

Tell that to my Sacrilege, ok? If you tried to make a point, you failed. Especially - mentioning Khanid in Amarr thread.


So hostile. Amarr and Khanid are friends again, right? And we need more Khanid ships. Like the new Armageddon.

CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."

My little youtube videos can be found here
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1963 - 2013-04-26 20:52:31 UTC
Just because YOU want something, doesn't mean, it's warranted, or fit the storyline.
Armageddon changes are just an attempt to pull a ship that was too expensive for him to fly into game through back door.
I don't mind a missile/drone boat in Amarr BS line (or, let's be honest, I would greatly benefit from such a ship), but not Armageddon, and not in this ******** way.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1964 - 2013-04-26 20:56:06 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Just because YOU want something, doesn't mean, it's warranted, or fit the storyline.
Armageddon changes are just an attempt to pull a ship that was too expensive for him to fly into game through back door.
I don't mind a missile/drone boat in Amarr BS line (or, let's be honest, I would greatly benefit from such a ship), but not Armageddon, and not in this ******** way.


The Armageddon is listed as the backbone of the AMARR navy. How is the backbone of a laser-based navy a neut-drone boat? Fail. Massive, incalaculable fail.

Why does everything this company does lately feel like 1 step forward and sixteen and a half backwards?
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1965 - 2013-04-26 21:03:17 UTC
Honestly as long the drone/neut Armageddon still feature lazors in a viable way the 3 "new" ships will bring a lot of flavour and diversity to Amarr while not losing touch with the roots.

I would worry more about the changes for the Megathron (and the lack of changes for Rokh & Attack Battlecruisers)...
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1966 - 2013-04-26 21:14:22 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Honestly as long the drone/neut Armageddon still feature lazors in a viable way the 3 "new" ships will bring a lot of flavour and diversity to Amarr while not losing touch with the roots.

I would worry more about the changes for the Megathron (and the lack of changes for Rokh & Attack Battlecruisers)...


Not my race. Sorry. Would never sail Gallente... and probably wouldn't sail Caldari.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1967 - 2013-04-26 21:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Honestly as long the drone/neut Armageddon still feature lazors in a viable way the 3 "new" ships will bring a lot of flavour and diversity to Amarr while not losing touch with the roots.

I would worry more about the changes for the Megathron (and the lack of changes for Rokh & Attack Battlecruisers)...


No one will use lasers in unbonused ship. This alone says a ton about their balance. You dont change iconic ships because "i feel it is the right thing to do". **** that. If you are a developer and change something considerably I as a paying customer expect much better explanation than "i feel" and purely false excuses like "it is not used". It is the most used Amarr battleship. And especially after specifically stating in a dev blog that the hull is fine and wont be changed.

And also the Armageddon is the smallest (a lot smaller than both Abaddon and Apocalypse). It looks ******** as drone boat. I do agree that fun and mechanics should come before lore, story or laws of physics in a game but this just looks stupid.
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1968 - 2013-04-26 21:42:55 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Honestly as long the drone/neut Armageddon still feature lazors in a viable way the 3 "new" ships will bring a lot of flavour and diversity to Amarr while not losing touch with the roots.

I would worry more about the changes for the Megathron (and the lack of changes for Rokh & Attack Battlecruisers)...


No one will use lasers in unbonused ship. This alone says a ton about their balance. You dont chance iconic ships because "i feel it is the right thing to do". **** that. If you are a developer and change something considerably I as a paying customer expect much better explanation than "i feel" and purely false excuses like "it is not used". It is the most used Amarr battleship. And especially after specifically stating in a dev blog that the hull is fine and wont be changed.


This. It's iconic. It's functional. It was not broken, either OP or underpowered. The Geddon was as balanced as ships can probably get in this game.

You know what 'I feel,' CCP Rise? Like you're wrong, and haven't done a satisfactory job explaining this change. I don't feel like I have to justify a statement like that because, hey, you don't do it while wiping out an entire class of ships.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#1969 - 2013-04-26 22:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Meduza13
Sorry, doubled post
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#1970 - 2013-04-26 22:01:17 UTC
After some of my posts were removed, despite not containing anything offensive, conclusion is - this forum is waste of time. Changes will go ahead people do you like it or not. I bet testing will be a farce as well. Amarr ships are being destroyed, slap in the face for investing 51 mil sp in amarr only. And this post will be removed as well probably , because speaks the damn truth which is called "ranting". Changes are mostly FAIL. I do not appreciate CCP approach, thats what players get for over 100 plexes of subscription from accounts combined ( in my case) Thanks a lot.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1971 - 2013-04-26 23:33:33 UTC
Meduza13 wrote:
After some of my posts were removed, despite not containing anything offensive, conclusion is - this forum is waste of time. Changes will go ahead people do you like it or not. I bet testing will be a farce as well. Amarr ships are being destroyed, slap in the face for investing 51 mil sp in amarr only. And this post will be removed as well probably , because speaks the damn truth which is called "ranting". Changes are mostly FAIL. I do not appreciate CCP approach, thats what players get for over 100 plexes of subscription from accounts combined ( in my case) Thanks a lot.


I fully agree, my posts were removed too despite the fact that they weren't at all vicious, though I did criticise the moderator and that post got removed too, so much for free speech. It seems that disparaging the boot is a bootable offense.

I don't understand why they open these threads, ask for feedback then ignore it no matter how well crafted or studious that feedback is. And when they do reply it's not worth the pixels its written on.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1972 - 2013-04-27 00:01:01 UTC
So, 99 pages of derision, tears, suggestions, and constructive criticism and I'm guessing that the feeling is still "Amarr is where we want it."

I've already moved to a non-resist bonused hull and shield tanking for the time being. I did a few little tests on TQ just to compare, and the result is pretty sad. I tank more in the shield hull than my old resist-bonused hull; and I'm doing it with less than ideal skills and no implants. Just to specify, I'm comparing active shield to active armor right now. Does it feel wrong to me to be doing this? Hell yes, but I now see that we were even more the "red-headed step-child" than I first thought. I'd love to come back to flying only Amarrian boats, but won't if this truly is the direction that is being forced on us.

If you're going to preach balance while nerfing things, you had best boost other properties at the same time. Again, I'm sure a bit of work went into some of this, but the execution is terrible. Someone earlier was preaching about homogenization; what's being done right now, this whole tiericide thing, is homogenization.

I'd like to share a little something that I've observed multiple times in the past about MMOs and games in general: You don't nerf anything unless it's ridiculously OP, instead you bring the other elements in line with the slight issue that sometimes gives the upper hand.

This works wonders; so does listening to the playerbase. I'm not a developer, publisher, or shareholder, but I do try my best to make my voice heard and to be objective in my observations. It would be infinitely appreciated to see the tiericide sink back into the cesspool it came from, and a proper ship by ship evaluation happen. It would be nice to see balanced changes that aren't blanket changes.

I'm going to continue testing a bit and try to see if I can find this elusive issue that is such a bugbear that we needed tiericide and resist nerfs. Until I do, or someone presents unbiased data that can be replicated, this is all gutter trash.
Asmodai Xodai
#1973 - 2013-04-27 00:03:49 UTC
Korgan Nailo wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
What's wrong with simply putting amarr down and trying out other races?

My character is two years old, which for eve is... nothing.


I understand your sentiment. But it's the same sentiment as the republican or democrat that continues to faithfully show up on election day and pull that lever over and over again, year after year, for the same party that has screwed them from day one and keeps screwing them.

Repugs and dems don't listen to people who faithfully pull the lever for them no matter how often or how viciously they've been corn-holed. If they will listen to anyone (besides their corporate paymasters), they will listen to people who walk away.

The same applies here. Don't be taken for granted.
Asmodai Xodai
#1974 - 2013-04-27 00:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Quote:
I've already moved to a non-resist bonused hull and shield tanking for the time being. I did a few little tests on TQ just to compare, and the result is pretty sad. I tank more in the shield hull than my old resist-bonused hull; and I'm doing it with less than ideal skills and no implants. Just to specify, I'm comparing active shield to active armor right now. Does it feel wrong to me to be doing this? Hell yes, but I now see that we were even more the "red-headed step-child" than I first thought.


I have much the same experience as you. I moved from armor tanking to shield tanking for caldari/minmatar, and moved from lasers (which I could never fit) to rails, missles, etc. The results are like night and day. Even with no skills I can fit and fly caldari/minmatar much better than I could ever fit/fly amarr.

I have declared that I'm not a red-headed stepchild. I am someone with dignity and respect. I therefore left amarr, and feel quite liberated and empowered by doing so.

As an aside, there are lots of no-brainer reasons why CCP's approach is wrong, and they have all been detailed here. But if for no other reason, we really should beat the fact like a dead horse that attack battlecruisers can fit weapons that battleships can't. This fact alone is a heresy that screams 'broken,' yet CCP refuses to fix it. It's the poster child for stupidity.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1975 - 2013-04-27 00:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Pathogen Ascention wrote:
So, 99 pages of derision, tears, suggestions, and constructive criticism and I'm guessing that the feeling is still "Amarr is where we want it."

I've already moved to a non-resist bonused hull and shield tanking for the time being. I did a few little tests on TQ just to compare, and the result is pretty sad. I tank more in the shield hull than my old resist-bonused hull; and I'm doing it with less than ideal skills and no implants. Just to specify, I'm comparing active shield to active armor right now. Does it feel wrong to me to be doing this? Hell yes, but I now see that we were even more the "red-headed step-child" than I first thought. I'd love to come back to flying only Amarrian boats, but won't if this truly is the direction that is being forced on us.

If you're going to preach balance while nerfing things, you had best boost other properties at the same time. Again, I'm sure a bit of work went into some of this, but the execution is terrible. Someone earlier was preaching about homogenization; what's being done right now, this whole tiericide thing, is homogenization.

I'd like to share a little something that I've observed multiple times in the past about MMOs and games in general: You don't nerf anything unless it's ridiculously OP, instead you bring the other elements in line with the slight issue that sometimes gives the upper hand.

This works wonders; so does listening to the playerbase. I'm not a developer, publisher, or shareholder, but I do try my best to make my voice heard and to be objective in my observations. It would be infinitely appreciated to see the tiericide sink back into the cesspool it came from, and a proper ship by ship evaluation happen. It would be nice to see balanced changes that aren't blanket changes.

I'm going to continue testing a bit and try to see if I can find this elusive issue that is such a bugbear that we needed tiericide and resist nerfs. Until I do, or someone presents unbiased data that can be replicated, this is all gutter trash.


I'm not fully understanding here. For instance, the claim of bringing homogenization to a race with 3 laser BS's. Seems like anything would be less homogenized, and that those who are against it are more against it due to lore related attachment rather than homogenization. Homogenization would also give rise to the idea of the ships being functionally interchangeable. This doesn't seem to be the case with the apoc being focused on versatile range combat, helped on the near side by tracking and the far side by range, the baddon being tank focused while retaining it's damage capabilities (granted nerfed due to the resist, but I'm not even going to address that here, point being it's still 20% resist buffed), and the geddon, which adds an option to the amarr BS line which has never existed, feelings on the choice of hull to convert aside.

Your shield tanking issue is also well known and isn't a factor of Amarr ships, it's the failings of armor tanking. This issue is shared with the Gallente (and a number of Minmatar hull with a good number of lows).

And finally we have the issue of power creep keeping us from simply continuing to buff. The need to maintain competitiveness throughout all classes and levels means a buff to address one out of line element means buffing all other elements which interact with it. You create large amount of work and high risk of creating new imbalances which you must again create new mass buffs to correct to avoid nerfs. Yet we have aspects of ships that were buffed. The geddon can't really be compared with its current iteration, and the baddon simply loses the blanket 1% resist, but the apoc received the kind of tradeoff treatment you say you desire. Trading a bonus for cap and a new bonus, HP for speed/agility and gaining fitting.

Edit: That isn't to say there aren't issues with fitting and cap particularly related to weapons and other considerations, but these seem like untargeted complaints that don't hold up against objective analysis.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1976 - 2013-04-27 00:32:53 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not fully understanding here. For instance, the claim of bringing homogenization to a race

Homogenization ACROSS races. Please don't comment on issue you don't understand.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1977 - 2013-04-27 00:37:27 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not fully understanding here. For instance, the claim of bringing homogenization to a race

Homogenization ACROSS races. Please don't comment on issue you don't understand.

Sorry, but advice rejected. Even across racial boundaries we are not losing options.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1978 - 2013-04-27 01:23:01 UTC
The Apoc's "range control" spot is taken by the Oracle, and the Abaddon will brawl better unless you're bringing a battleship to a frigfest (in which case why not just take the new Armageddon?). While the Apocalypse is getting a capacitor buff, I still feel like it's being forced out of a spot. It's the only battleship besides the Rokh (and scorpion) with 8 effective turrets, but has much less tank and range and duration than the Rokh when fitted comparably.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#1979 - 2013-04-27 01:36:18 UTC
Kharamete wrote:
And we need more Khanid ships. Like the new Armageddon.

It's not a Khanid ship.

Remove standings and insurance.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#1980 - 2013-04-27 01:46:08 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Pelea Ming wrote:

To reiterate his point for all the tl;dr out there... "If your going to do something, do it right the first time, take pride in your work, and don't make excuses to procrastinate over it."

If you are of a mind to think you can balance a complex system right the first time and never have to later make changes based on things you find out along the way, you probably shouldn't be balancing complex systems.

If someone is saying that you shouldn't try to balance complex systems right even on your first try, then maybe , just maybe this someone and I'm not saying that this someone is you in particular, probably shouldn't say how things should be balanced and/or that other people shouldn't try to do it right the first time. I'm just saying. Blink

Can you really expect that? I would think they made their statements of balance being a continuous process for a reason. Obviously one does ones best, but clearly the response expects that if one does, there would never be any need to revisit a potentially large portion of that design. That is very short sighted. It's also unrealistic. Or are we really expecting everything to be perfect after the first pass?

Edit: also a bit more relevantly, some of what they are doing is to specifically test waves of changes in isolation to measure specific effects, in which case rushing into a multilevel rebalanced based on this change at the same time ruins any possibility of quantifying the changes effects since they won't be able to be isolated.


I do agree, expecting everything to be perfect after the first pass is unrealistic. Realistic thing would be expecting balance, not a thing that is written on a piece of paper, that is drawn out of a hat by random, and then called "first balance pass".

Naso Aya wrote:
Also, why DOESN'T the Harbinger have a cousin?

He doesn't need one, because he has adorable, penguin looking, twin brother now. Blink


CCP Rise probably will not/do not read this thread cause fanfest and all that. So, we have 2 days till monday to outrun Gallente Balance thread. Only 10 more pages. Big smile

btw if anyone didn't see their ship balancing presentation you should. CCP Rise tries to explain stuff there. click