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Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#861 - 2013-04-26 12:37:34 UTC | Edited by: Pattern Clarc

Drake Doe wrote:

Running out of straws

You forgot to add explosive damage and cap usage and and and...

Seriously, it's getting pathetic now.

The previous (4 slot tank) tempest without DCU II's has 67918 EHP, (5 slot tank) megathron 79,988 EHP, the tempest has 250 more armour EHP (+1%), but much lower armour resists against the others damage type (therm/kin, vs explosive) And its still slower.

Chart.

Red = 5x Neutron Blasters, 2x MFS - Megathron
Green = 6x 800mm autocannons, 1x Gyro, Tracking Computer/Optical Range - Tempest
Blue = 5x 425mm rails, 2x MFS - Megathron

Top graph, 0 transversal
Bottom graph, 153m transferal - megathron

Within 20km, you doing better dps with a neutron blasterthron (ignoring ehp) off with a megathron doing what an armour tanking tempest is apparently designed to do. Beyond that range, you're better with 425mm rails and antimatter, before even looking at ehp or speed.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Drake Doe

88Th Tax Haven

Likes received: 459

#862 - 2013-04-26 12:51:48 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

Running out of straws

You forgot to add explosive damage and cap usage and and and...

Seriously, it's getting pathetic now.

The previous tempest without DCU II's as 67918 EHP, megathron 79,988 EHP, the tempest has 250 more armour EHP (+1%), but much lower resists against the other (therm/kin, vs explosive) And its still slower.

Chart.

Red = 5x Neutron Blasters, 2x MFS - Megathron
Green = 6x 800mm autocannons, 1x Gyro, Tracking Computer/Optical Range - Tempest
Blue = 5x 425mm rails, 2x MFS - Megathron

Top graph, 0 transversal
Bottom graph, 153m transferal - megathron

Within 20km, you doing better dps with a neutron blasterthron (ignoring ehp) off with a megathron doing what an armour tanking tempest is apparently designed to do. Beyond that range, you're better with 425mm rails and antimatter, before even looking at ehp or speed.

And can you instantly switch between them during a fight? So either the pest brawls outside the.mega's range it gets close enough to the point it's in the optimal of it's autocannons. So yes, the Mega wins on paper but when you account for what's being fit and what the other could do to counter it, it becomes a battle of making the right decisions, not a mega rolling over it like nothing.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#863 - 2013-04-26 12:57:42 UTC

Drake Doe wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

still wrong

Forever ignorant

Take a look at their ehp difference before the Dc ii, and no, structure only makes a difference for ships without tanks and terrible fits. I'm pretty sure you just failed at eft warrioring, nice try though.

Dude now you are trying to say PVP shisp shoudl not fit DC II? You realize how that makes autoamtically everythign you post about ship balance irrlevant and 100% ignored from now on?

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#864 - 2013-04-26 13:02:46 UTC

Drake Doe wrote:

*slow claps* Drake Doe for suddenly realising that 1v1 comparisons are dumb. I did an objective comparison to prevent the "waaaaaaaaaa, that's not how you fit tha..." but I suppose there will always be one.

The fundamental point is that the tempest is really limited, and has no performance envelope where it excels, that this is bad, and needs to be fixed. Especially as a armour tanker, it's pathetic. It gets even worse when we compare it with new sentry domies or pulse lasers or even just a megathron or hyperion (because despite the combat/attack bulls.hit the hyperion is almost as quick) using 6 turrets instead of 5!

And yes, you've seen the actual *strength* of the tempest, but in the wider context, it isn't much, especially considering the sacrifices.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Drake Doe

88Th Tax Haven

Likes received: 459

#865 - 2013-04-26 13:06:18 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

still wrong

Forever ignorant

Dude now you are trying to say PVP shisp shoudl not fit DC II? You realize how that makes autoamtically everythign you post about ship balance irrlevant and 100% ignored from now on?

I'm saying that yoy should look at the ARMOR difference not the total ehp because it makes a bigger difference when you can get your resists over 60, or do you perfer hull tanking?

Bouh Revetoile

In Wreck we thrust

Likes received: 554

#866 - 2013-04-26 13:08:41 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

Running out of straws

Your comparison is worthless, because you should use close range ammo for range < 20km.

Barange is a long range ammo, and is superior in your comparison at longer range. Blasters being superior at shorter range is not something amazing either. That's the way of things. AC are not supposed to be supperior to everything, they are supposed to be better than blasters at longer range (>20-25 km) and better than pulse at shorter ranges (< 15-20km). That's always how AC were supposed to work.

Now, I'm not saying the Tempest don't need help, but here you are trying to make the Tempest to appear worse than it is.

And you shouldn't use the drones in these comparisons, they are only confusing the numbers and are not relevant for any range beyond 15km.

And finaly, can't you use something better than a TC in this mid slot ? The Tempest have 5 utility mid slots, so I'm sceptical about using it as any other low utility BS. A second web, ECCM or EWAR would serve it better IMO if not in 1v1 BS fights which isn't its niche anyway, because the Typhoon and Maelstrom will probably do that better.

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#867 - 2013-04-26 13:11:28 UTC | Edited by: Pattern Clarc

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

Running out of straws

:faceplam:
Read my last post.

And yes, there are better things to fit in the midslot, but that wasn't the point however.... AND I'm actually advocating that the tempest gets more of them.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Drake Doe

88Th Tax Haven

Likes received: 459

#868 - 2013-04-26 13:15:19 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

So I've just realized 1v1 comparisons are dumb but that's what you've been basing your argument off of? Moving on, objective comparisons aren't the best ways to measure ships meant to be fit so differently, and I do believe it needs a slot rearrangement, which in my opinion should be losing a high for a mid and low. Also domis will become sentry phoons with projectiles which I hate.

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#869 - 2013-04-26 13:27:36 UTC | Edited by: Pattern Clarc

Drake Doe wrote:

I responded (foolishly in retrospect) to your plea to compare the tempest with megathron - given that a typically fit blaster mega out damaged the tempest so severely with 7 turrets, I decided to see what would happen if I replaced a few with neuts... low and behold, it still did more damage, was faster, etc etc.

I overestimated your ability to see at just exactly what I was getting at, to see what apples vs apples looked like and extrapolate what would happen with different fits, you brought meaningless 1v1 examples like sig radius or armour ehp and thus descended down to this mess!

And just incase that wasn't a typo, the tempest would never lose a low slot for a mid AND a low.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#870 - 2013-04-26 13:30:00 UTC

Drake Doe wrote:

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

still wrong

Forever ignorant

Dude now you are trying to say PVP shisp shoudl not fit DC II? You realize how that makes autoamtically everythign you post about ship balance irrlevant and 100% ignored from now on?

I'm saying that yoy should look at the ARMOR difference not the total ehp because it makes a bigger difference when you can get your resists over 60, or do you perfer hull tanking?

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Naomi Knight

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 515

#871 - 2013-04-26 13:58:08 UTC

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And finaly, can't you use something better than a TC in this mid slot ? The Tempest have 5 utility mid slots, so I'm sceptical about using it as any other low utility BS. A second web, ECCM or EWAR would serve it better IMO if not in 1v1 BS fights which isn't its niche anyway, because the Typhoon and Maelstrom will probably do that better.

In 1v1 (not that it is frequent or anything)
Tempest + 1 tracking disruport wins vs mega anytime at 20km+ in 1v1
Your only problem is to keep that range advantage and never get into web range, but if you dont lame full armor buffer tank fit the tempest it will be as fast or faster than the mega.

So close range fit tempest isnt bad at all, ofcourse it is not as tanky or doesnt have as much dps as the mega ,but why should it?
It is way more flexible ,and better at longer ranges. And in not 1v1 the tempest flexibility should give it an edge over the mega.

The only problem the tempest has that arties are hard to fit onto it. And pretty much thats all. And maybe it should be as fast as the mega,but not faster thats for sure.
+1 slot would make the tempest superior to the mega in every situation imho
what could be done is a very small pg increase and very small velocity increase

Kane Fenris

NWP

Likes received: 160

#872 - 2013-04-26 14:14:31 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

still wrong

Even with 1 gyro on the tempest vs 5 turrets and 2 mfs's on the megathron - the megathron still does more dps at point blank, is still faster and more agile, but this time with 10% more EHP. Lol

i agree with you

but i still wonder did you put cap boosters 25 in there so the ship looses in runtime too? cause you put navy (guess 400 cant see) in the other.

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#873 - 2013-04-26 14:26:06 UTC

Kane Fenris wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

still wrong

Even with 1 gyro on the tempest vs 5 turrets and 2 mfs's on the megathron - the megathron still does more dps at point blank, is still faster and more agile, but this time with 10% more EHP. Lol

i agree with you

but i still wonder did you put cap boosters 25 in there so the ship looses in runtime too? cause you put navy (guess 400 cant see) in the other.

An oversight. I was swapping meta levels so much to deal with the fitting constraints I simply forgot to choose the right cap charges.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#874 - 2013-04-26 14:44:06 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

Running out of straws

That graph should be paramount for this discussion. Its clearly shows that tempest have no envelope of excelence. COmbine that with being SLOWER than the megathron and basically sums up the tempest situation:

Tempest trades Mediocricity to get 1 extra large neut. That same neutralizer that will be almost useless since the armageddon will be the neutralizer battleship from now on...

Tempest have only 1 advantage over other battleships.. it Looks cooler! Only that!

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Deerin

East Trading Co Ltd

Likes received: 283

#875 - 2013-04-26 14:51:38 UTC

Uhm..It looks like a discussion between 4-5 people only. Lets stop doing this.

If I may sum up these 45 pages:

Mael not touched is good. It was in a good and unique position anyway.

Pest needs a slight tweak as the current gallente boats seem to overshadow it in its roles. A few of the proposed changes were:

Squeezing its damage bonuses into one bonus and giving it another bonus.(like done for hyperion)
Adding some PG.
Shifting a high to med.

Phoon is a beast, but it is not our beast anymore. If released with these stats it will be quite competetive. One change was proposed by multiple people, though it is mostly a request to "honor the spirit" of the old typhoon.

-1 launcher and old drone bay.

Drake Doe

88Th Tax Haven

Likes received: 459

#876 - 2013-04-26 14:54:59 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

It was high slot and if the ship is meant to avoid taking too much damage via it's lower sig it will in fleets as well. Dispite being highly unlikely let's look at a fleet battle of tempests vs megathrons, if the tempests could maintain didtance they could apply damage outside blaster range or get under railgun range and have you actually tested how they stack against each other with your fits and with fits people actually use?

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#877 - 2013-04-26 15:03:10 UTC

Drake Doe wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

DID you checked taht graph he posted? There is no place where tempest can do that inside disruptor range. And on fleet fights the signature will not help the tempest because of range. Signature is very useful when you are fighting dreads, that is true, but the megathron doe snto have a large signature as well.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Drake Doe

88Th Tax Haven

Likes received: 459

#878 - 2013-04-26 15:06:29 UTC

Drake Doe wrote:

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Drake Doe wrote:

still wrong

Forever ignorant

Dude now you are trying to say PVP shisp shoudl not fit DC II? You realize how that makes autoamtically everythign you post about ship balance irrlevant and 100% ignored from now on?

I'm saying that yoy should look at the ARMOR difference not the total ehp because it makes a bigger difference when you can get your resists over 60, or do you perfer hull tanking?

Then you are WRONG. The ONLY value that matters is the EHP (unless you are active tanking, but on that case the base hitpoint values are almost irrelevant).

To the game is irrelevant if you survives in shield, armor or hull. You can be alive or dead. Alive when your EHP is > received damage... dead otherwise. Any illusion that EFFECTIVE HP (you knwo that EFFECTIVE menas adjusted by resistances right? ) has different values between armor or HUll.. is just an ILLUSION.[/quote]
You're not looking at the bigger picture, if there's a logi in the fleet it won't have an effective way to repair hull damage, which means it won't survive as long as the tempest after getting primaried because of the lower armor ehp. And any sort of hull logi would have to stay close to the receiving ship which means it'll die mucu faster, along with having a poor rep amount.


Pattern Clarc Citeregis Likes received: 604	#879 - 2013-04-26 15:08:58 UTC \| Edited by: Pattern Clarc But because you've got less slots for tanking, you've got lower resists anyway. AND re: signature - +50% tracking (blasters/autocannons) > +5% signature Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Drake Doe

88Th Tax Haven

Likes received: 459

#880 - 2013-04-26 16:11:33 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

But because you've got less slots for tanking, you've got lower resists anyway.

AND re: signature - +50% tracking (blasters/autocannons) > +5% signature

That's why I think it needs another low

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