Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Interesting you say that because to me they look completely different despite the similar bonuses. The Tempest puts out much greater sustained dps, and isn't paper thin. it can kite either at long range with artillery and cruise missiles, or close range with autos and either torps in the utility slots, or nuets / vamps if you get in a little closer. Try doing that with a Tornado and I expect you won't last very long at all. Plus youve got drones on top of that to consider over the Tornado for anti frigate support or extra dps.

So my vision would be Tornado as the quick alpha hull for hit and run type engagements, Tempest for more prolonged engagements, perhaps backed up by logis whilst kiting from range. The possibilities are endless, and a lot different to what you have with the Tornado.

Have you even look at the stats of the new mega? It's less agile and slower which is an important factor in lower ehp BSes. Also is neut range the only thing you judge by, considering a tempest can hit with barrage farther than a mega with null.

Read again what I wrote. That was pretty much what I was saying. Personally I'd like to see the Typhoon drop a missile hardpoint and be replaced with expanded drone capabilities as a starting point. As for the Raven it is looking a lot better since CCP announced the cruiser missile changes, so I would hold back and see how the meta plays out before asking for buffs/nerfs.

The trouble with the velocity bonus and the new cruise missiles is I'm not sure how it is going to play out with so many changes occurring at once, and so the new Raven could be very good or not so great for all I know.

The main thing though I would like to see the Typhoon preserve some racial identity, and I like to have some interesting fitting options. That is one thing I dislike about this tiericide programme, a lot of things are being pigeon holed and CCP is basically giving us only one good way to fit our ships.

That has definitely happened with the Typhoon in some regards, and giving back some of its drone capability and removing a launcher makes the ship much more interesting to play around with in my opinion even though paper dps may not be so great.

It just wouldn't be balanced. Balance is about niches and roles, but just adding missiles and drones to suit dogma instead of stats isn't a good way to do game design.

True, but bonuses can be tweaked to compensate and bring things into line. Losing a launcher and adding back the drone capabilities would be just the starting point as I stated, ie the basic concept, from that point is where you do the real balancing.

You are correct, but I did explain before that you cannot simply look at the slot layout in isolation and to determine the power of a ship, it is how the rest of the ship stats and bonuses merge and provide you with the overall package.

CCP Rise has stated earlier in the thread that changing the slot layout of the Tempest is extreme, so its basically not going to happen. The slot layout is one of its characteristics, and adds lots of interesting and uneique fitting possibilities true to Minmatar tradition, and so the rest of the ship should can be tweaked around that basic concept. Ie have a look at my proposal and see how it can work very well still with a 8/5/6 layout without having to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Seeing as how this thread has degenerated into an insult throwing, e-peen waving contest (on the part of some, anyway) and there's no comment forthcoming from CCP Rise, there's not much point in continuing to monitor it. I just hope that CCP takes all the constructive feedback into consideration and doesn't further neuter Minmatar BS.

It's a relativative comparison, drop tank for dps and nothing changes between the two, the megathron will be ahead - it's not 100% zero sum but it's close, mostly because the megathron can do with 7 highslots, more than that the tempest can do with 8.

AND if you really wanted to set up the tempest in a way it wouldn't automatically lose to the megathron, I'd shield tank it.






I honestly just think CCP Rise see's the :metrics: and thinks there's no point trying to fix something that isn't broken enough - as enough people use it now that it won't matter. - But with the changes to the other BS's, which are all more closer in performance than some fear, the tempest will be left behind.

AND yes, I see the bigger picture, almost every stat (beyond shield regen time, CPU and mass) wouldn't need to be changed, because of the fundimentality of changing the slots. Your trying your hardest to make it conform, put it in line with existing ships and current dogma. This is bad, this is how ships trample over each other, this is infact, pigeon holing to a higher extent than you realise whilst seriously upsetting the balance that allows a number of other minmatar ships to be meaningful.

The slot layout change I suggested increases the capabilities of the ship as swapping a high to a mid is far from zero sum, both in shield or armour configerations for reasons I've highlighted over and over again.
Instead of conforming dps numbers with adhoc bonuses, I've given pilots the frame work to better express how they want to fly the ship.

Second guessing whether CCP Rise has the resources or courage to correctly fix the tempest like he did with the geddon and hyperion isn't how this works.

Playing around in EFT with the Mega and Tempest, my initial and somewhat cursory glance over the possibilities seems to indicate that the Tempest has much better damage application at a longer range with the autos (around 25km), and dps is around the same as the Mega which must operate at a much closer range. Where the mega wins out though is on having around 30k ehp extra than the Tempest, so it seems your trading range for tank.

Also one note is the Mega is far easier to fit, CPU is limited when trying to fit torps on the Tempest, and generally seems a bit low overall.