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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1901 - 2013-04-25 21:57:39 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Theia Matova wrote:
And well Amarr? Cap hog, armor tank hole stuck, laser stuck race that gets worse and worse since our versatily is stripped away. Amarr have hole every corner. Yes lasers make the most damage but I would change that to more versatile damage and tank.

So in fact you want a minmatar/caldari/gallente hull (pick the one you like) with a golden hull and its weapons looking like lasers ?

Or is it only another races ships but with amarr racial skills ?


It might not be what she wants, but it certainly seems to be what CCP wants. Down with racial traits -- all hail the new king-god that is vanilla EVE!

Sad
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#1902 - 2013-04-25 22:02:29 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Theia Matova wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Truth is independent of how its expressed. I am not here to make bunny happy friends. I am here to point why balance is MUCH MUCH more important on PVP than on PVE.


The truth is that the ships won't ever be in balance in PVP. Ship design is made so that the resistances and are inbalance. And its more of rock-scissor-paper game where amarr is the most predictable one because amarr has zero-zip versatility. T1 hulls spew em-thermal, and suck kinetic explosive. Yes em/thermal damage is more than with other races but we pay the price of being most predictable ship race. So everyone can either flee when they don't feel secure about that setting or when they feel secure they can easily kill you.

If you want PVP balance vote for Amarr ship versatility and fact that Amarr need drones AND launchers not just raw lasers. Amarr also need either buff to native T1 kinetic explosive or easy way to shift native resistances from EM / thermal armor to kinetic explosive because otherwise amarr ships will be always too easy to predict and find the right rock-paper-scissor.

Amarr and most PVP do not mix with current design and it won't change until the design changes.


Including to this fact amarr is the only race ship that is vulnerable for every EW type. Yes it true that we are strong against ECM and dampening. But where caldari can be immune to TD and neut. Soon Winmatar can do the same since they gain their first missile boat that even gets bonus to explosive radius. Including to that I would say that Amarr is one of the most vulnerable race for TD at least I get the feeling when I run missions and get TD to hell. Included neut just makes it worse.

If you want PVP superiority fly winmatar, whose guns don't eat energy. Whose damage type is very dynamic. Who can tank either shield or armor, therefor being very unpredictable. You fly against winmatar and you can't ever be sure what you exactly get.

Gallente can get really nut solo dual omni rep fits with nice dps, with drones they gain versatility in damage. I also find that kinetic is the best damage in general since in most fits kinetic happens to be the most weak so blasters eat most of the tanks.

Caldari is a mixed basket tengu is good, also drake. But they lose good big ships. Yet I find shield more flexible in tanking damage types, and the fact that caldari deal pure kientic with missiles or any damage type they wish.

And well Amarr? Cap hog, armor tank hole stuck, laser stuck race that gets worse and worse since our versatily is stripped away. Amarr have hole every corner. Yes lasers make the most damage but I would change that to more versatile damage and tank.


Gallente and caldari are only selectively invulnerable, take a look at the blaster/rail boats for them.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1903 - 2013-04-25 22:35:29 UTC
I have removed some non constructive posts.

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Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1904 - 2013-04-25 23:31:39 UTC
Guys I seriously understand why you are angry but unconstructive mayhem does not help anyone. Don't forget that CCP has working hours and they are not working today anymore. There is lot of input outside iceland work hours and you cannot expect them to reply over the night as well. CCP Rise did message the thread today. Yes I am not happy either but before raging at least wait for tomorrow that he has chance to even read the feedback that he has got so far.

Please try to be more constructive and don't mock others nor CCP employees. Yes I am unhappy too but if they do not change things all we can do is to either change play style or stop playing. Making more rage mails don't help anyone in filtering the messages.
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1905 - 2013-04-25 23:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Theia Matova wrote:
Guys I seriously understand why you are angry but unconstructive mayhem does not help anyone.


I have yet to see unconstructive mayhem. Sorry. Perhaps it only looks like unconstructive mayhem if you disagree with it.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1906 - 2013-04-25 23:36:39 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
Theia Matova wrote:
Guys I seriously understand why you are angry but unconstructive mayhem does not help anyone.


I have yet to see unconstructive mayhem. Sorry. Perhaps it only looks like unconstructive mayhem if you disagree with it.


I wasn't necessarily referring to your last post. Some seem to really wait for blood and don't really even understand that they have work hours. Actually your last post was constructive. But not all of them were. Anyway I just hope everyone can wait for today when CCP actually have chance to reply the flood of messages.
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1907 - 2013-04-25 23:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Theia Matova wrote:
Provence Tristram wrote:
Theia Matova wrote:
Guys I seriously understand why you are angry but unconstructive mayhem does not help anyone.


I have yet to see unconstructive mayhem. Sorry. Perhaps it only looks like unconstructive mayhem if you disagree with it.


I wasn't necessarily referring to your last post. Some seem to really wait for blood and don't really even understand that they have work hours. Actually your last post was constructive. But not all of them were. Anyway I just hope everyone can wait for today when CCP actually have chance to reply the flood of messages.


People are angry. There is no denying that. But anger isn't unconstructive. In fact, I'd argue that it's the most constructive mood. Anger breeds a desire for rectification. Were people not supposed to be upset by these proposals? They do so much damage to so many of the established norms. To say that the proposed changes were heavy handed is like saying that the Titanic was a bathtub toy.

The problem is really that we allowed this boulder to get rolling in the first place. Nobody batted an eye when the new destroyers were introduced. There was minor clamour when a few of the cruisers and battlecruisers were changed, but not enough people are actively sailing the ships that were altered to matter much.

But with the BSes, it's something different. Now, CCP is attempting to overturn the most major ship class in the game. Some of the boats aren't being hurt that bad -- others are being rendered unrecognizable. We were told, initially, that this was going to be a 'pass to rebalance things' -- not a complete wipe of the system, starting fresh.

Most of us aren't looking for 'fresh' at this point in our e-lives. This is an adult game; we're adults, and some of us are downright curmudgeonly ones at that. We're not looking to have some magician to come in here with ZING and BAZOW and BLAMMO and rip the carpet right under our feet (only to disappear moments after in a puff of smoke). The status quo worked.

So, yeah, I am angry. But, again, anger doesn't mean a lack of being constructive.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1908 - 2013-04-26 00:18:11 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:

The problem is really that we allowed this boulder to get rolling in the first place. Nobody batted an eye when the new destroyers were introduced. There was minor clamour when a few of the cruisers and battlecruisers were changed, but not enough people are actively sailing the ships that were altered to matter much.

But with the BSes, it's something different. Now, CCP is attempting to overturn the most major ship class in the game. Some of the boats aren't being hurt that bad -- others are being rendered unrecognizable. We were told, initially, that this was going to be a 'pass to rebalance things' -- not a complete wipe of the system, starting fresh.


And I feel even moreso with the Amarr ships. Looking at the Minmatar, CCP has stated that split weapons systems are all getting re-evaluated. No surprises. Caldari had minor tweaks, along with the missle re-balance, an emphasis on rebalance.

The Gallente had the most change, but fundamentally it remains the same: a removal of split weapons systems, and now is simply a re-balance pass of the Hyperion, and the Mega. It took some backlash, but people by and large on the gallente forums are satisfied with the changes- and the ships remain intact.

There's two major issues I have with the Amarr lineup, currently.

1) We have a split weapons system. The Armageddon. I feel like it's the old typhoon- it's trying to do too many things. It is, after the changes, THE most flexible weapons system. And it's Amarr. I don't think that's a good thing. We (or at least me) Amarr are small minded ants, we like our pretty lasers, and our armor bricks. Drones are okay, because we're kinda like drones too. But the old Typhoon could have gone just as easily in the exact same direction, and it would still be called the "mini baal" and have the same complaints.

The Armageddon doesn't "feel" Amarr. I'm not saying drone bonuses aren't Amarr, or even Neut/Nos range...but the hull itself doesn't feel Amarr. The argument that "well it's a larger prophecy" misses out on the fact that the prophecy feels like a ton of bricks. Not so much, with the Armageddon, hell, it's losing a low-slot.

2) The Apoc feels out of place. It's not as good of a sniper as an Oracle, and it's not as good of a brawler as the Abaddon. It's a genuinely nice boat, but it doesn't have a SPOT except for PvE, in which case you're SOOL in either the Abaddon or the Apoc due to cap issues (the Apoc is 'better' but not enough to justify it over the Abaddon, imo). The Amarr "endurance boat" ends up being the Armageddon. It honestly feels like CCP is saying "welp, laser rebalance has to happen EVENTUALLY....right dev team? I'm sure you have room on your plate for one more project".

I've said some of this before, but I hope maybe it's more succinct now? Clearer? It's not that the new Armageddon is bad, it's that it'd fit more in the Minmatar lineup besides the fact that minmatar don't have a "drone leadup branch" which is a new development. I get we're trying to push the Amarr in a new direction, but CCP Rise got the short stick having to deal with these changes.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1909 - 2013-04-26 00:28:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
I can understand hate for drones but amarr need damage dynamic weapon system to have serious stand in pvp and also in PVE. I do not favor drones, in fact I had rather seen old khanid type missile hull rather. Lasers are sadly broken concept that won't work alone unless they figure out damage module that modifies laser damage to make also kinetic / explosive or pierce through resistance.

And I do agree with many that geddon was not the best hull choice but the truth is that if it had been abaddon or apocalypse someone else had whined. What CCP should do is to separate the geddon changes to another hull. To not to take away anything old away and rather introduce new that way.

I am still looking forward for the new geddon even I am not very happy how it turned out to be. I liked the new prophecy but well I have different standing point to drones that most amarr flyers. I am cross trained to many weapon systems after all.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1910 - 2013-04-26 00:28:58 UTC
Well .. if it was meant to be a larger Prophecy it should have used the Abaddon hull .. but I don't want to get into that argument again.

I don't understand why they don't just introduce it as a T1 Khanid hull using the Abaddon and be done with it.

Omen -> Armageddon
Prophecy -> Abaddon

I mean doesn't the Prophecy have the resist bonus with the drone bonus?
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1911 - 2013-04-26 00:32:19 UTC
Regolis wrote:
Well .. if it was meant to be a larger Prophecy it should have used the Abaddon hull .. but I don't want to get into that argument again.

I don't understand why they don't just introduce it as a T1 Khanid hull using the Abaddon and be done with it.

Omen -> Armageddon
Prophecy -> Abaddon

I mean doesn't the Prophecy have the resist bonus with the drone bonus?


Also, why DOESN'T the Harbinger have a cousin?
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1912 - 2013-04-26 00:46:15 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Regolis wrote:
Well .. if it was meant to be a larger Prophecy it should have used the Abaddon hull .. but I don't want to get into that argument again.

I don't understand why they don't just introduce it as a T1 Khanid hull using the Abaddon and be done with it.

Omen -> Armageddon
Prophecy -> Abaddon

I mean doesn't the Prophecy have the resist bonus with the drone bonus?


Also, why DOESN'T the Harbinger have a cousin?


Erhm I feel that apoc kinda is, since harpy has always been full laser boat. But thats just my feeling :p
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1913 - 2013-04-26 00:56:15 UTC
Rest assured that this thread is being watched by the relevant Devs.

Also, I have removed some rule breaking posts.


11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1914 - 2013-04-26 01:03:57 UTC
Regolis wrote:
Well .. if it was meant to be a larger Prophecy it should have used the Abaddon hull .. but I don't want to get into that argument again.

I don't understand why they don't just introduce it as a T1 Khanid hull using the Abaddon and be done with it.

Omen -> Armageddon
Prophecy -> Abaddon

I mean doesn't the Prophecy have the resist bonus with the drone bonus?


Agreed. The Armageddon is the clear successor to the Omen. It's nonsense to turn it into this drone hive.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1915 - 2013-04-26 01:05:18 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
Regolis wrote:
Well .. if it was meant to be a larger Prophecy it should have used the Abaddon hull .. but I don't want to get into that argument again.

I don't understand why they don't just introduce it as a T1 Khanid hull using the Abaddon and be done with it.

Omen -> Armageddon
Prophecy -> Abaddon

I mean doesn't the Prophecy have the resist bonus with the drone bonus?


Agreed. The Armageddon is the clear successor to the Omen. It's nonsense to turn it into this drone hive.


And with the Abaddon obviously going up from a Maller, if we HAVE to have a drone boat, that leaves the Apoc.
Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#1916 - 2013-04-26 01:30:02 UTC
It is pretty sad that a coalitions Abaddon fit is made up of 1400 arties, lol
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1917 - 2013-04-26 02:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Redacted. ISD Suvetar

Hi,

Discussing forum moderation is not permitted as per forum rule 11:

Forum rules wrote:

Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.


All my colleague did was to quote the forum rules, and they are written in such a fashion as to be very clear.

If you wish to discuss this matter, then you will need to raise a petition about it, you may use the Other issues->Community petition category to do so.

Thanks.

-ISD Suvetar
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1918 - 2013-04-26 02:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Frankly, I think the saddest (but most telling) thing about this whole process was that the changes weren't 'opened for discussion' until less than eight weeks before the patch went live. Ergo, why even talk about it? Why even ask our opinion? We all know that it's too late to make changes. The most that could be done at this point would be to leave certain alterations out, and I'm sure that's not going to happen.

I can't tell if this was a complete misgauging of the community's reactions (as in, they were expecting everyone to cheer and whoop and hoorah about this nonsense, and got it totally wrong), or they didn't care. Either way, the whole thing is downright flippant.

CCP, us Amarr types are set in our ways. We don't like change. We particularly don't like change for the worse. You knew going into this that we were like that. Why inflict this on us?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1919 - 2013-04-26 03:19:45 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
Frankly, I think the saddest (but most telling) thing about this whole process was that the changes weren't 'opened for discussion' until less than eight weeks before the patch went live. Ergo, why even talk about it? Why even ask our opinion? We all know that it's too late to make changes. The most that could be done at this point would be to leave certain alterations out, and I'm sure that's not going to happen.

I can't tell if this was a complete misgauging of the community's reactions (as in, they were expecting everyone to cheer and whoop and hoorah about this nonsense, and got it totally wrong), or they didn't care. Either way, the whole thing is downright flippant.

CCP, us Amarr types are set in our ways. We don't like change. We particularly don't like change for the worse. You knew going into this that we were like that. Why inflict this on us?


Honestly, this is some of the better communication they've done. Sure, they aren't giving us any leeway because they're sticking to their guns and the decisions they've made (I have to commend them for that ... I hate people who sway to the whims of others too easily), and I personally feel that time will prove that Amarr are going to need another adjustment to make them work. But CCP has pretty much stated that this is their route, try it and and tell them what's wrong.

We did, before it even hit duality. And they offered a beam change. It'll take more from us and them to get Amarr on par. But as i've said before, this wouldn't be the first time Amarr has lost a class of ships. Even if every one of these bs's fail in every way, we've still got more functioning and capable pvp ships than we've ever had before.

Just have to take it in stride. I mean, it sucks, but I realized a long time ago that if I wanted to have final say, I'd start my own spaceship company.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1920 - 2013-04-26 03:21:55 UTC
I did alot of comparative posting about weapons in the Large Energy Turret thread. It basically comes down to the Tachyon isn't part of the scaling. If you look at smaller weapons, we have no tachyon equivalent in the medium and small ranges. What I fear is that they plan to go back and rip the -10% cap per level off all the ships, homogenize the caps but leave our weapons at 3x rail costs.
This problem isn't going away anytime soon guys.

Now about the Battleship lines.
Battleships were never directly inline with Battlecruisers since the BCs were added way later.
The Battleships were in line with Cruisers.
So we have this or should have this.

Maller -> Abaddon
Omen -> Armageddon

There was never a direct correlation with the Apocalypse to anything else.

If they want to "keep the lines" with Battlecruisers, I would suggest the following.

Prophecy -> Abaddon
Harbinger -> Armageddon
Oracle -> Apocalypse (not sure exactly how that would work but I can play with the numbers for that one.)

This would keep a direct line from the battlecruisers to the battleships, but this is all talk-talk they've already decided pretty much how it's going to be and short of nuclear devastation the best we can hope is for better cap or a better reduction in lasers costs.