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A Carrier that Carries
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Helios Aquiness
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-04-25 13:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Helios Aquiness
I think that games like Minecraft have proven that you can let players solo AND play with friends in every aspect of the game and still be successful. The problem now comes with balance. How do you make something solo capeable and keep people from abuseing its power?
Carebear? Im a brony, motherf***er.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#22 - 2013-04-25 13:46:12 UTC
Helios Aquiness wrote:
I think that games like Minecraft have proven than you have let players solo AND play with friends in every aspect of the game and still be successful. The problem now comes with balance. How do you make something solo capeable and keep people from abuseing its power?


Fair question. Give it good guns, we'll use it offensively. Make the tank great and give you no ability to get away or hide, and you'll just be webbed and picked away by larger and larger fleets.

And I feel your minecraft analogy here is a poor choice. Sure, I really love minecraft. But it isn't the same frame of mind. Cause in EvE, force and people equal power. You really can bring 1000 people to do the job in a second what it would take an hour to do otherwise.



For the rest of the comments, keep these facts in mind:

- Unless it's rarely used, it will not be rare. Prepare to see a ship like this by the droves. No matter the cost or expense in operating, if it's that good, you'll see two or three in each system, easily.
- How could bots misuse this ship?
- What about being used in war? A hard tanked ship with no guns but the ability to shield others and repair them/change ships? That could make that hisec war unwinnable if your group is the one without one.
- Is this exclusively for w-space? If so, how will it be protected there? Anything large should be scannable, and you have to leave the ship vulnerable in some way. It cannot be invincible. It has to have a weakness.

So many forget that if you make something so good that a new player can grab it an own with it, a great player will break the game with it.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Helios Aquiness
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-04-25 14:03:20 UTC
Balance to me is a 4 letter word since it prevents realism. We all know that in RL a Titan would be a fleet unto itself and all but invincible but because of blalance you need friends or a titan is just a big target.
Carebear? Im a brony, motherf***er.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#24 - 2013-04-25 15:28:30 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
No fancy ideas here -- just a basic thing that I think people want: a non-combat oriented mobile base. Something to hold everything from ships to gear.

Each race has one of said ship. There would be minor differences between capabilities.

It can tank but not gank -- it would have carrier like ehp but no ability to fit combat mods of any kind.

I just wanted to re-spark the idea as I think a lot of people want some sort of mobile command center for small op and wh's etc.

Thoughts?

interesting idea.. would be useful for WH operations. maybe a cap sized version of a WH fit orca?

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#25 - 2013-04-25 16:10:51 UTC
Helios Aquiness wrote:
Balance to me is a 4 letter word since it prevents realism. We all know that in RL a Titan would be a fleet unto itself and all but invincible but because of blalance you need friends or a titan is just a big target.


Indeed... real life a behemoth the size of a titan with the amount of power those generators can create, would be quite indestructible and have enough weaponry to fight a whole fleet by itself... sounds like a cool idea to test on Freespace...


I will add a "realist" titan to Freespace and see how it behaves fighting a fleet by itself.
Mole Guy
Band of Builders Inc.
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#26 - 2013-04-25 16:25:37 UTC
fly anywhere, but only anchor in low sec or less.

no offensive capabilities what-so-ever..just a base station. it can only give bonuses if an active pilot is in it who has skillz.

no bridging, thats crazy. only cyno when shields are down.

cruiser shields until anchored, then give it 2x the carriers shields. ive seen carriers melted by tornado fleets.

nothing special about the ship other than the ability to use links, the shields, and the storage space/2 slot manufacturing.
if you need ammo or drones, throw it in the oven and cook it up...
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#27 - 2013-04-25 17:10:26 UTC
Following in the vein of mobile base: A Thukker Mix Wayfarer

  • An Orca/Freighter size capital vessel. Fits through gates, no jump drive.
  • No gun/missile mounts.
  • 250K cargohold. No ore bay, no compression. Just stuff. Handful of packaged battleships or a crap ton of smaller ships base plus all their gear, and there's mods if you want more. More than an industrial, less than a Freighter.
  • 600K ship fitting bay. That allows any subcap I could find to dock. Doesn't carry, just dock and swap. When you get where you're going, you still have to set things up.
  • Corporate hangar 30K like the others.
  • 100m3/50mbit drone bay/bandwidth. Smattering of light drones.
  • Clone bay (with grid reduction like on the Rorqual). Not jump clones, but medical clones. You die, you can wake up in the ship. But you can't mind-jump in from elsewhere. You're traveling with the ship.
  • Something like a 3/3/3 slot layout, though that's pure guesswork. Enough to fit some mods.
  • Probably needs a capital anchoring module (like siege or triage) that buffs the defenses and locks it in place, maybe gives it a sub POS shield wall. It'd be prudent for a roaming band not to have to haul their weight in stront to fuel it, but I don't know of another way to make it work.
  • Extra: since this is Thukker/possible mobile exploration base, maybe give it bonuses to probe scanning. (Rorquals and Orcas get bonuses to survey and cargo scanners, this'd be similar.) Can sit in the wormhole and scan down everything in sight, and send the kids out to fight/investigate/whatever.

This is all pretty scattershot, but it does a few things:

  1. Keeps it from being much of a combat or even combat support vessel. (No guns, no bonuses to reppers or vampires, only light drones). Still needs fleet support.
  2. Makes it a good long hauling platform, and platform in a true sense. You set it up and base out of it for a while, tear it down and move on. Doesn't outstrip the need for the Freighters.
  3. Can survive as much as any big slow beast in high sec, and can turtle itself up in more dangerous places.

Real ***** is: what happens to the pilot when the thing anchors? Is he just... sitting there? That would be lame. Maybe once the anchor is up you can eject your pod and dock, grab a ship. But then how do you keep someone from hopping in and taking it for a joyride? Password protect, POS rules, something weird would have to happen. Not sure there.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#28 - 2013-04-25 17:27:37 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Rudina wrote:
We have a type of carrier that can carry more ships than a normal one, it's somewhat unsurprisingly called a supercarrier.

We also have a carrier that can use gates, it's called an Orca.


a super is designed for combat and must rely on cynos. This carrier is obviously intended for a smaller scale similarly to the orca
only it would be specifically for nomading instead of mining.


I don't see why so many are against this idea.

I see it as not a ship for each race but a high sec(much smaller) version of a non combat supercarrier much like the orca is a (much smaller) high sec version of a non combat carrier. This would be another ore based ship but perhaps can enter high sec like a jump freighter. But still have a jump drive.

I would say even give it no high slots, or only 1-2 utility highs but not able to use gang links. This would be much different than a roqual as the roqual is basically a mobile factory for processing(compressing) ORE. This new non-combat carrier would have only a small cargo hold, but a huge unrestricted ship maintenance bay where say up to 3-4 fitted battleships can be stored.

It may or may not be tanked, I would be happy with a ship similar to a jump freighter with no fitting options at all. just a very large ship maintenance bay, and a jump drive, but also able to use gates. Give it about 1,000,000 EHP, (A combat carrier can easily have 1-2 million ehp plus a huge active tank.) So a unmodifiable tank of 1,000,000 ehp with no active tanking ability, would be very reasonable. Considering 3-4 fitted battleships could easily be over 2 billion isk, or even potentially over 4 billion isk. So the tank has to be big enough to allow it to carry 3-4 battleships before it gets profitable to gank.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-04-25 19:41:23 UTC
Ruze wrote:
The uniqueness (and problem) with a nomadic base of operations is that the pilot is screwed. To make the pilot less screwed, you'd have to give it a way to be protected when he's not around, and moved, while not leaving the pilot behind.

You see, one major killer of ideas like this is that they are written by pilots wanting a solo platform. Fly out in your base ship, park, undock your super-fit ratter, do your thing, grab your miner, do your thing, dock it all back up and go about your business.

That ship sounds awesome, till somebody steals it from you. Or blows it up knowing it's full of goodies. And what is a proper amount of hold and capacity?



If you can find a way to make this mobile base ship less solo focused (which, if you haven't gathered, CCP is against solo play on the basis that this is an MMO), then you get a cookie and we start an idea that might actually have merit.

But if an idiot like me can think of ways to abuse it mercilessly to my own advantage? Then your right in line with the other ideas which we don't see in game.



I wasn't thinking of something for purely solo efforts; I was thinking about something that's usable on a smaller scale, for people who want to move around. Because the whole point of things like wormholes originally was to move and explore. But now it is actually more viable in all ways - weather you are in a small operation or a large one - to squat on some spit of land. I don't mind the idea of having a pos for a home but it seems to me in a ship based game, a small group of ships should be able to roam and be sufficient at the same time. Also don't misunderstand me. I'm not looking to make roaming more easy in all ways or even most. The revamped pos should be sufficient in many areas for homes both big and small. But still. It should be an option to explore and harvest. Squatting should not be mandatory.

Oh sure you can day trip into wh's. But you can't go on a voyage.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-04-25 19:46:55 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Rudina wrote:
We have a type of carrier that can carry more ships than a normal one, it's somewhat unsurprisingly called a supercarrier.

We also have a carrier that can use gates, it's called an Orca.


a super is designed for combat and must rely on cynos. This carrier is obviously intended for a smaller scale similarly to the orca
only it would be specifically for nomading instead of mining.


I don't see why so many are against this idea.

I see it as not a ship for each race but a high sec(much smaller) version of a non combat supercarrier much like the orca is a (much smaller) high sec version of a non combat carrier. This would be another ore based ship but perhaps can enter high sec like a jump freighter. But still have a jump drive.

I would say even give it no high slots, or only 1-2 utility highs but not able to use gang links. This would be much different than a roqual as the roqual is basically a mobile factory for processing(compressing) ORE. This new non-combat carrier would have only a small cargo hold, but a huge unrestricted ship maintenance bay where say up to 3-4 fitted battleships can be stored.

It may or may not be tanked, I would be happy with a ship similar to a jump freighter with no fitting options at all. just a very large ship maintenance bay, and a jump drive, but also able to use gates. Give it about 1,000,000 EHP, (A combat carrier can easily have 1-2 million ehp plus a huge active tank.) So a unmodifiable tank of 1,000,000 ehp with no active tanking ability, would be very reasonable. Considering 3-4 fitted battleships could easily be over 2 billion isk, or even potentially over 4 billion isk. So the tank has to be big enough to allow it to carry 3-4 battleships before it gets profitable to gank.


Thanks for the support. I don't wish to propose anything op. I just though that there is a niche to be filled in terms of mobility. One that an expansion such as Odyssey should seek to address. Thus far there have been many more combat related adjustments. But there is not much yet on the actual theme, one which I think is very important to eve but has been neglected for a long time. I just want to see more stuff that benefits the traveler.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-04-25 19:53:35 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
No fancy ideas here -- just a basic thing that I think people want: a non-combat oriented mobile base. Something to hold everything from ships to gear.

Each race has one of said ship. There would be minor differences between capabilities.

It can tank but not gank -- it would have carrier like ehp but no ability to fit combat mods of any kind.

I just wanted to re-spark the idea as I think a lot of people want some sort of mobile command center for small op and wh's etc.

Thoughts?

interesting idea.. would be useful for WH operations. maybe a cap sized version of a WH fit orca?


I'm not sure if such a thing should be cap sized or not as what i had in mind would be something for the guys in C1-4 to use more that C5 c6 who necessarily have more permanent operations anyways. I am trying to brainstorm for something flexible for the nomad and yet not OP or of a concern at all to those who prefer or need a pos.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-04-25 19:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Ruze wrote:
Helios Aquiness wrote:
I think that games like Minecraft have proven than you have let players solo AND play with friends in every aspect of the game and still be successful. The problem now comes with balance. How do you make something solo capeable and keep people from abuseing its power?


Fair question. Give it good guns, we'll use it offensively. Make the tank great and give you no ability to get away or hide, and you'll just be webbed and picked away by larger and larger fleets.

And I feel your minecraft analogy here is a poor choice. Sure, I really love minecraft. But it isn't the same frame of mind. Cause in EvE, force and people equal power. You really can bring 1000 people to do the job in a second what it would take an hour to do otherwise.



For the rest of the comments, keep these facts in mind:

- Unless it's rarely used, it will not be rare. Prepare to see a ship like this by the droves. No matter the cost or expense in operating, if it's that good, you'll see two or three in each system, easily.
- How could bots misuse this ship?
- What about being used in war? A hard tanked ship with no guns but the ability to shield others and repair them/change ships? That could make that hisec war unwinnable if your group is the one without one.
- Is this exclusively for w-space? If so, how will it be protected there? Anything large should be scannable, and you have to leave the ship vulnerable in some way. It cannot be invincible. It has to have a weakness.

So many forget that if you make something so good that a new player can grab it an own with it, a great player will break the game with it.


well for starters you don't make it as defensy as a pos. perhaps it has the capabilities of a medium and its mobile. As for high sec - it can carry but not anchor and if you are still concerned about repping and such make it so that it cant rep ships that are taking damage. Boom. now it can sustain ships after battles but is of little use during them.

EDIT: *Note: its pos like capabilities are only when it is anchored (its EHP should be enough to make it not easily gankable but at the same time it would only reach the big tanky capabilities when it is providing its command center functions e.g. not in a fight.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
dm2
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-04-25 21:25:53 UTC
i now what he wants .

and its alreday ingame .

aeon , mothership .

it fly
it have 50.000 m3 fleet hangar
2.500.000 m3 shipsbay

you can fit ships and do it all .

it even can cloak :p

archon the same story , and mutch cheaper .

if you dont like big risks , put your cynoship on selfdestrukt , and activate the cyno on your last 10 seconds .
ship destroyed , cyno is gone .
if its in a system where you cant dock .
dm2
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-04-25 21:32:17 UTC
and vassal , you dont want an orca like vessel that transfers to a pos .
ship maybe 700 mil
then all the mods you need , shipsbays that making the ship bigger when you activate them .
all the defence mods .

this ship wil cost more then 1,5 bil .

do you realy want anchor a ship of that price for 30 minnits ?
do you realy like to travel that big ship tru wspace ?
dm2
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-04-25 21:46:38 UTC
im more for a pos with a cloak .
all ships in the forcefield and the pos cant be seen or scanned .

and give the pos the posebility to hang on a safespot .
no posguns alowed or extra defence when you anchor the cloak batterie
no place for invention , and making ships .

just have place for a few cha and sma .

pos for invasions
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-04-25 21:46:38 UTC
dm2 wrote:
and vassal , you dont want an orca like vessel that transfers to a pos .
ship maybe 700 mil
then all the mods you need , shipsbays that making the ship bigger when you activate them .
all the defence mods .

this ship wil cost more then 1,5 bil .

do you realy want anchor a ship of that price for 30 minnits ?
do you realy like to travel that big ship tru wspace ?



I didn't say 30 minutes. Perhaps a day or two. What is the most underused wh space? C4. Why is it underused? I think because it requires significantly more effort that a c3 to the point where a c5 is often better. This ship would change that. Also. Your point about the size of the ship in relation to wh space raises a good point. I think wh space is largly overpopulated mostly due to everyone settling as I mentioned earlier. My idea defiantly wouldn't change that. I think the settling is not an issue in it of itself its just that there is not enough space. Change that and you will see more people wanting to get up and stretch their legs.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
dm2
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-04-25 22:39:08 UTC
if you mean you dont want the anchoring timer ?

if you want to do c4 , you need a few rr tengu , a salvager , and a orca .
the orca is good for it , and you can cloak it on a ss .

a small pos is easy to put on , anchor time and put it online , its only 15 minits .
if you need the orca pilot char .

a second orca and a colapse hic is not to mutch .
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-04-25 22:51:35 UTC
That'd be an Orca.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#39 - 2013-04-25 23:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Ager Agemo wrote:
which i do want too, i dont need jump drives, repairers, gank bonuses or any of that crap, all i need is a high sec capital ship that can carry 5 or 7 Fitted battleships on a single trip.

So basically you want a supercarrier that isn't a supercarrier. Because 2.5+ million cubic meters of ship maintenance bay (the amount of space needed to hold 5 battleships) is supercarrier to Titan size. Even freighters aren't that big.


Ager Agemo wrote:
orca = mining support ship, industrial cargo ship. can carry only industrial shisp.
Freighter = material hauling can only carry 1 battleship on a courier package whic is stupid by the way, useless for this purpose either.
Carriers= fleet support ship, that repairs others, offers firepower with fighters is a combat ship.
Mothership/superCarrier/Titan= same as the carrier.

- The Orca doesn't have any ship restrictions beyond size.
- freighters can hold 2 battleships, provided they don't have too much volume.
- The carrier isn't just a fleet support ship... it's a logistics ship... the pickup truck of EVE. You CAN fit it so that it can act as a mobile HQ. And its firepower is equal to that of a well skilled battleship. Yeah, there are logistical hassles in having it, but you can't have a ship that can do "everything" (which, regardless of how you spin it, is essentially what you are asking for. You want a ship that can act like a station, hold its own like a POS, can move around in high sec like a freighter, and holds more ships than a supercarrier).
- Supercarriers and Titans, see above.


Ager Agemo wrote:
see how NONE of this ships fits the role we need? i m thinking people might be too obstuse to understand what we are asking for, since they keep suggesting for ships that do NOT offer what we need a simple Space faring trailer, MAYBE with a passcode for piloting it and getting ships in and out of it.

Have you considered that maybe people are being "obtuse" because you are basically asking for a ship that can do "everything" logistically with almost no drawbacks. And no, not having weapons is not a drawback... simply because it would be able to carry fleets of guns to its destination. You're basically asking for the perfect power projection tool.

Edit: remember that anything a solo player can use, a large group of organized players can use better. You can't create a ship that will fill ever solo player's without running to the problem of lots of players overusing that ship for their own group.

How did you Veterans start?
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-04-25 23:37:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
ShahFluffers wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
which i do want too, i dont need jump drives, repairers, gank bonuses or any of that crap, all i need is a high sec capital ship that can carry 5 or 7 Fitted battleships on a single trip.

So basically you want a supercarrier that isn't a supercarrier. Because 2.5+ million cubic meters of ship maintenance bay (the amount of space needed to hold 5 battleships) is supercarrier to Titan size. Even freighters aren't that big.


Ager Agemo wrote:
orca = mining support ship, industrial cargo ship. can carry only industrial shisp.
Freighter = material hauling can only carry 1 battleship on a courier package whic is stupid by the way, useless for this purpose either.
Carriers= fleet support ship, that repairs others, offers firepower with fighters is a combat ship.
Mothership/superCarrier/Titan= same as the carrier.

- The Orca doesn't have any ship restrictions beyond size.
- freighters can hold 2 battleships, provided they don't have too much volume.
- The carrier isn't just a fleet support ship... it's a logistics ship... the pickup truck of EVE. You CAN fit it so that it can act as a mobile HQ. And its firepower is equal to that of a well skilled battleship. Yeah, there are logistical hassles in having it, but you can't have a ship that can do "everything" (which, regardless of how you spin it, is essentially what you are asking for. You want a ship that can act like a station, hold its own like a POS, can move around in high sec like a freighter, and holds more ships than a supercarrier).
- Supercarriers and Titans, see above.


Ager Agemo wrote:
see how NONE of this ships fits the role we need? i m thinking people might be too obstuse to understand what we are asking for, since they keep suggesting for ships that do NOT offer what we need a simple Space faring trailer, MAYBE with a passcode for piloting it and getting ships in and out of it.

Have you considered that maybe people are being "obtuse" because you are basically asking for a ship that can do "everything" logistically with almost no drawbacks. And no, not having weapons is not a drawback... simply because it would be able to carry fleets of guns to its destination. You're basically asking for the perfect power projection tool.


The perfect power projection tool was not the idea behind this post. nomading was. So slash the carrying capabilities to 2 or 1 or no bs as you see fit. Anything so it's not op. That's not the heart of the matter I think. As previously stated, the mobile HQ idea is better in places like whs if it can temporarily make berth i.e. anchor.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
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