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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#741 - 2013-04-24 22:54:29 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges. Shield Fitted with tracking mods, it's suddenly competitive on the damage output, but a complete paper tiger tank wise.

I don't fully agree with your premise. I think 5 mid slots is enough to have an adequate shield tank, and then you have lots of low slots to fill with damage mods. It isn't going to be an amazing shield tank, but paired with extra damage you can easily get with a shield fitting, and the Tempest already has a good damage bonus, an amazing tank on top of that would make the ship too powerful.

Also if you are worried about the Tempest stepping into blaster territory then you could tweak the damage bonus in such a way it falls below the close range dps of blasters, and then perhaps adding an optimal or falloff bonus, which will mean the Tempest can apply slightly less dps than blaster damage, but at a much greater range.

Pattern Clarc wrote:
Armour tanking, it neither has the dps or the ehp to be competitive, to be honest, it was never really good for anything but pretending to be a BC, and now that BS hulls have been normalised, is even less likely to be considered by anyone as the go to ship for a specific role.

Have you played around with the reactive armour hardener yet by any chance? Its a pretty nice module and a step in the right direction for armour tankers. It allows a pretty decent armour tank on the Tempest with two gyrostabs fitted. Then you have 5 mid slots to play with for Ewar and other such mods. Granted it is not an amazing armour tank, but it is sufficient to get by when paired with the Tempest decent agility. With an additional damage boost it would compensate even further for a slightly weaker tank.

Also the general trend seems to be that CCP are improving thing in favour of armour tanks and so I expect to see armour tanks becoming more and more viable in future.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#742 - 2013-04-24 22:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Gargantoi wrote:
rant


I actually live in null sec and have lived in WH space. So you've just lost all credibility.
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#743 - 2013-04-24 23:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gargantoi
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done



Blasters as of now have more range with null than torpedoes.. Torps need a bit more range.. to somethign like 25 km range.


Oh please enough with torpedos having less range than blasters its bull.... javelin torps ... also rigs to boost range if 25km odd range isn't enough. also null at the end of its falloff is doing pitiful damage.




bro as i said above to that guy ..u need to gtfo from empire also and go low sec or nullsec to learn proper pvp ...the new typhoon to work as a proper pvp ship if FLOWN by an EXPERT pilot and not a dumb **** ...it will have a armor buff and 3x trimarks ..so fitting a range rig to get like 5km or some **** like that but losing 10% armor hp wont happen ..no one ...and i mean no one will fit a range rig for torpedos on a typhoon if they fit for pvp not even people like my self that use slave sets...even i would go 3 trimarks plates / resists / dmg mods and that would be it so dont talk unless u flyed the ship and know wtf u on about ...typhoon is a excelent ship to surprize your enemy ..fit 5 torps 2 neuts and with the 5 ogres oh baby also ...to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the typhoon into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl that way u actually get a proper torpedo pvp typhoon and give ccp some time guys ...they are trying to rebalance the cruise missiles ...maybe they got something up next for torpedos also
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#744 - 2013-04-24 23:10:42 UTC
Gargantoi wrote:
bro as i said above to that guy ..u need to gtfo from empire also and go low sec or nullsec to learn proper pvp ...the new typhoon to work as a proper pvp ship if FLOWN by an EXPERT pilot and not a dumb **** ...it will have a armor buff and 3x trimarks ..so fitting a range rig to get like 5km or some **** like that but losing 10% armor hp wont happen ..no one ...and i mean no one will fit a range rig for torpedos on a typhoon if they fit for pvp not even people like my self that use slave sets...even i would go 3 trimarks plates / resists / dmg mods and that would be it so dont talk unless u flyed the ship and know wtf u on about ...typhoon is a excelent ship to surprize your enemy ..fit 5 torps 2 neuts and with the 5 ogres oh baby also ...to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl that way u actually get a proper torpedo pvp typhoon and give ccp some time guys ...they are trying to rebalance the cruise missiles ...maybe they got something up next for torpedos also


Do you realise your coming across as a crazed ret@rd?

I don't think we need to pay any attention to you.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#745 - 2013-04-24 23:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Gargantoi wrote:
why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl


LOL..... You want the bhaal, a blood raider ship, to lose its nuet bonuses and be turned into a rapier....? o_o

Please biomass yourself right now.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#746 - 2013-04-24 23:32:01 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Gargantoi wrote:
bro as i said above to that guy ..u need to gtfo from empire also and go low sec or nullsec to learn proper pvp ...the new typhoon to work as a proper pvp ship if FLOWN by an EXPERT pilot and not a dumb **** ...it will have a armor buff and 3x trimarks ..so fitting a range rig to get like 5km or some **** like that but losing 10% armor hp wont happen ..no one ...and i mean no one will fit a range rig for torpedos on a typhoon if they fit for pvp not even people like my self that use slave sets...even i would go 3 trimarks plates / resists / dmg mods and that would be it so dont talk unless u flyed the ship and know wtf u on about ...typhoon is a excelent ship to surprize your enemy ..fit 5 torps 2 neuts and with the 5 ogres oh baby also ...to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl that way u actually get a proper torpedo pvp typhoon and give ccp some time guys ...they are trying to rebalance the cruise missiles ...maybe they got something up next for torpedos also


Do you realise your coming across as a crazed ret@rd?

I don't think we need to pay any attention to you.



His observations on th e rigs are somewhat with fudnament although. Battleships almost always will use their rigs for extended endurance.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#747 - 2013-04-24 23:33:22 UTC
Gargantoi wrote:



u sir are a cerbear who has no ******* clue what he is talking about ....time u got out of empire and maybe got your head out of your arse and see the problem here ...real pvp'ers use tornados insteed of tempest to snipe ..0.0 is full of them ..even jita is full of them second off if people want autocannons 9/10 will go for a hurricane insteed of a tempest ...9/10 will go for a maelstrom insteed of a tempest if they can fly only minmatar no one uses it it has bad slot layout u cant armor buff it decently u cant shield buff it decently u cant do proper dmg in it ...not even outspeed something is usless in everyway u put it



true.. even is comming form a test guy :P still true. Tornado and mael takes most of temepst roles. And now the geddon will take the bring the neuts role

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#748 - 2013-04-24 23:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gargantoi wrote:



u sir are a cerbear who has no ******* clue what he is talking about ....time u got out of empire and maybe got your head out of your arse and see the problem here ...real pvp'ers use tornados insteed of tempest to snipe ..0.0 is full of them ..even jita is full of them second off if people want autocannons 9/10 will go for a hurricane insteed of a tempest ...9/10 will go for a maelstrom insteed of a tempest if they can fly only minmatar no one uses it it has bad slot layout u cant armor buff it decently u cant shield buff it decently u cant do proper dmg in it ...not even outspeed something is usless in everyway u put it



true.. even is comming form a test guy :P still true. Tornado and mael takes most of temepst roles. And now the geddon will take the bring the neuts role


Ok let me get this straight, your taking someone seriously who rants and thinks the Bhaal should lose it nuet bonuses and be turned into a rapier.....

Ok now that is out the way.

Rigs are not always used for extended endurance. They are used for cap, extra damage, improved electronics, and many other things. That lunatic is talking absolute nonsense.

Second, of course the tornado is a superior sniper. That is its intended role so is pretty much common sense. If it wasn't good at sniping then it wouldn't be much dam good.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#749 - 2013-04-24 23:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
poor tempest it can't get a break....
tornado considering it has a falloff bonus its odd thats its the best arty user ... answer reduce fittings so can only use AC's
Maelstrom completely beats it in fitting potential and tank.
And its got the worst mobility of all attack battleships with a clear preference in slots to armour tanking without really being strong at it .... like a fat cane with an extra mid slot .... maybe swap a high for a mid might help it at least shield tank well and buff its mobility towards this whilst still having versatility in armour tanking and utility.

edit .. its mass is worse than quite a few of the combat versions domi comes to mind

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#750 - 2013-04-25 00:38:49 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gargantoi wrote:



u sir are a cerbear who has no ******* clue what he is talking about ....time u got out of empire and maybe got your head out of your arse and see the problem here ...real pvp'ers use tornados insteed of tempest to snipe ..0.0 is full of them ..even jita is full of them second off if people want autocannons 9/10 will go for a hurricane insteed of a tempest ...9/10 will go for a maelstrom insteed of a tempest if they can fly only minmatar no one uses it it has bad slot layout u cant armor buff it decently u cant shield buff it decently u cant do proper dmg in it ...not even outspeed something is usless in everyway u put it



true.. even is comming form a test guy :P still true. Tornado and mael takes most of temepst roles. And now the geddon will take the bring the neuts role


Ok let me get this straight, your taking someone seriously who rants and thinks the Bhaal should lose it nuet bonuses and be turned into a rapier.....

Ok now that is out the way.

Rigs are not always used for extended endurance. They are used for cap, extra damage, improved electronics, and many other things. That lunatic is talking absolute nonsense.

Second, of course the tornado is a superior sniper. That is its intended role so is pretty much common sense. If it wasn't good at sniping then it wouldn't be much dam good.



No you are the one not soundign OK. THe bhalghron thing i take as a joke. But he is right. Battleships will in 90% of tiem use rigs for endurance or fitting. At least on PVP.

Tornados were NOt created to be snieprs. they were created to be mobile AC boats. the falloff bonus screams that lounder than anything !

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#751 - 2013-04-25 01:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Kagura Nikon wrote:

No you are the one not soundign OK. THe bhalghron thing i take as a joke. But he is right. Battleships will in 90% of tiem use rigs for endurance or fitting. At least on PVP.

Tornados were NOt created to be snieprs. they were created to be mobile AC boats. the falloff bonus screams that lounder than anything !

I think IQs just dropped in this thread all of a sudden. Falloff is even more beneficial to snipers than it is to autocannons. Why do you think the Tornado has enough PG to equip a full rack of 1400mm's? And every tier 3 BC can fit a full rack of long range guns. Because of course they were designed to be agile sniper boats, and that is what they quite rightly excel at.

Also now your changing his words to try and support him. He never said anything about fitting rigs, according to him leet pvpers only fit endurance rigs on their ships. They don't care about damage rigs, fitting rigs, energy or electronic rigs, or anything else for that matter. As long as they can sit there like a brick in their logi and capital backed up null fleets then they are leet pvpers.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
THe bhalghron thing i take as a joke.

You are kidding yourself, he is deadly serious, just take a look at what he wrote again

Gargantoi wrote:
to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl

I don't know why you are giving that Test nut job the time of day.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#752 - 2013-04-25 01:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
poor tempest it can't get a break....
tornado considering it has a falloff bonus its odd thats its the best arty user ... answer reduce fittings so can only use AC's

IQs definitely have dropped in the thread. Your answer to the Tempest is to nerf the Tornado so much that it can no longer fit artillery and has to resort to autocannons? And that is one of your more reasonable proposals compared to what you propose to do to the Tornado later in the post..

Also, weren't you the one who was suggesting making projectile weapons use capacitor in the other thread? Lets hope they never let you near ship balancing.

Sad thing is you actually have two people who have liked your post so I guess there is little hope for this thread.
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#753 - 2013-04-25 05:37:49 UTC
Glad to see you're watching the thread, Rise. I know there's going to be a balancing panel tomorrow morning, and I assume you're going to be on it. As such, it'd be awesome if you could talk about the Tempest during the panel and different ways you might make it more competitive.

I know I've got my own pet preferences for it based on my experiences back in the early days of the game (2005/2006 and using its mobility and utility advantages), but I'd like to get your take. I've always preferred certain niche styles of PvP and lack the broader spectrum of interest needed to see all of the angles regarding balancing, so a peek inside the thought processes behind it would be awesome.

Now here's hoping I can drag my carcass out of bed early to watch it!
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#754 - 2013-04-25 08:28:33 UTC
FYI, weapons rigs are just about the poorest type of rig you can use on any ship.

And I think CCP Rises opinion of the tempest is pretty obvious. He knows it's broken but doesn't think the effort of a real fix is worth the aggro of the community generally resistant to change.


Thought experiment.
What if every battleship gained an additional slot?

Caldari
Raven
8/7/5 (regains its lost high slot)
Scropion
6/8/5 (regains lost high slot)
Rokh
8/7/5 (extra mid)


Gallente
Hyperion/Megathron
8/4/8 - 8 turrets, damage and tracking bonuses
Megathron/Hyperion
8/5/7 - 7 turrets, damage and active tanking bonuses
Dominix
7/5/7 - additional high slot

Minmatar
Maelstrom
8/7/5 - additional mid
Typhoon
8/5/7 - regains it's high slot
Tempest
8/6/6 - gets a mid

Amarr
Geddon
7/4/8 - gets a low
Apoc
8/4/8 - new low
Abaddon
8/5/7 - gets a mid


Probably most of the outstanding complaints about most of the ships is solved this way and somewhat future proofs the BS class from changes to the meta for some time.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#755 - 2013-04-25 10:12:34 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
poor tempest it can't get a break....
tornado considering it has a falloff bonus its odd thats its the best arty user ... answer reduce fittings so can only use AC's

IQs definitely have dropped in the thread. Your answer to the Tempest is to nerf the Tornado so much that it can no longer fit artillery and has to resort to autocannons? And that is one of your more reasonable proposals compared to what you propose to do to the Tornado later in the post..

Also, weren't you the one who was suggesting making projectile weapons use capacitor in the other thread? Lets hope they never let you near ship balancing.

Sad thing is you actually have two people who have liked your post so I guess there is little hope for this thread.



Yest he is right. One of the MAIN reason a lot of battleships are not used anymore is that their roles have been raped by the attack BC.

The talos, tornado and ORcale should get the fittign bonus only for AC, Blasters and Pulses.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#756 - 2013-04-25 10:15:38 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

No you are the one not soundign OK. THe bhalghron thing i take as a joke. But he is right. Battleships will in 90% of tiem use rigs for endurance or fitting. At least on PVP.

Tornados were NOt created to be snieprs. they were created to be mobile AC boats. the falloff bonus screams that lounder than anything !

I think IQs just dropped in this thread all of a sudden. Falloff is even more beneficial to snipers than it is to autocannons. Why do you think the Tornado has enough PG to equip a full rack of 1400mm's? And every tier 3 BC can fit a full rack of long range guns. Because of course they were designed to be agile sniper boats, and that is what they quite rightly excel at.

Also now your changing his words to try and support him. He never said anything about fitting rigs, according to him leet pvpers only fit endurance rigs on their ships. They don't care about damage rigs, fitting rigs, energy or electronic rigs, or anything else for that matter. As long as they can sit there like a brick in their logi and capital backed up null fleets then they are leet pvpers.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
THe bhalghron thing i take as a joke.

You are kidding yourself, he is deadly serious, just take a look at what he wrote again

Gargantoi wrote:
to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl

I don't know why you are giving that Test nut job the time of day.



You are starting to derail yourself completely. 1400mm benefits much LESS from falloff than AC> Arties get about 27% of the effect that AC get from same falloff bonus relative to their base effective damage projection. You are the one not using the brain to analyse properly

The fact remaisn that his observation about rigs is correct. No one, or almsot no one will or thinks its acceptable to fit weapon rigs on PVP battleships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#757 - 2013-04-25 10:17:51 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
FYI, weapons rigs are just about the poorest type of rig you can use on any ship.

And I think CCP Rises opinion of the tempest is pretty obvious. He knows it's broken but doesn't think the effort of a real fix is worth the aggro of the community generally resistant to change.




Taking the agro may be expensive. But at least is somethign will ahppen only once. Thwe rage about tempest status remaisn for like 6 years already. And the agro will be much smaller than the armageddon agro, while witht he bonus that the tempest need help much more than the armageddon (that had a clear laser ganking ship role)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Implying Implications
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#758 - 2013-04-25 10:31:06 UTC
It would have been nice if something was done about the horrible slot layout on the Tempest.

hello
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#759 - 2013-04-25 10:32:58 UTC
Implying Implications wrote:
It would have been nice if something was done about the horrible slot layout on the Tempest.




Even throwing dices woudl get better than current configuration. Ok.. maybe throwing dice and picking the best of 3 results :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#760 - 2013-04-25 10:52:47 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Gargantoi wrote:
why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl


LOL..... You want the bhaal, a blood raider ship, to lose its nuet bonuses and be turned into a rapier....? o_o

Please biomass yourself right now.



Ment typhoon -_- that came out wrong ill make sure to fix it lulz ! also your WH living is diferent from actual pvp you fight npc ..while we fight players ..get my point ?