These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#721 - 2013-04-24 12:45:37 UTC
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done



Blasters as of now have more range with null than torpedoes.. Torps need a bit more range.. to somethign like 25 km range.
MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#722 - 2013-04-24 12:53:11 UTC
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done


"Seems" does not work. just log into duality and fight an armor hurricane with typhoon, fight the armor hurricane with megathron, and then fight the megathron with typhoon, then you can draw a conclusion.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#723 - 2013-04-24 12:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Seishi Maru wrote:
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done



Blasters as of now have more range with null than torpedoes.. Torps need a bit more range.. to somethign like 25 km range.


Oh please enough with torpedos having less range than blasters its bull.... javelin torps ... also rigs to boost range if 25km odd range isn't enough. also null at the end of its falloff is doing pitiful damage.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#724 - 2013-04-24 13:13:10 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done



Blasters as of now have more range with null than torpedoes.. Torps need a bit more range.. to somethign like 25 km range.


Oh please enough with torpedos having less range than blasters its bull.... javelin torps ... also rigs to boost range if 25km odd range isn't enough. also null at the end of its falloff is doing pitiful damage.



Rigs to increase range? Ok I counter you with tracking computers that increase range and falloff. Sure falloff reduces damage a lot... but that excuse seems to not be valid to minmatar anymore, so why to gallente? No one is asking anythign absurd. Just that torpedoes have a bit more range than HAMS. 3-4 km is enough. There is no need of more explosion velocity or damage. Just a tiny bit more range...
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#725 - 2013-04-24 13:21:10 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done



Blasters as of now have more range with null than torpedoes.. Torps need a bit more range.. to somethign like 25 km range.


Oh please enough with torpedos having less range than blasters its bull.... javelin torps ... also rigs to boost range if 25km odd range isn't enough. also null at the end of its falloff is doing pitiful damage.



Rigs to increase range? Ok I counter you with tracking computers that increase range and falloff. Sure falloff reduces damage a lot... but that excuse seems to not be valid to minmatar anymore, so why to gallente? No one is asking anythign absurd. Just that torpedoes have a bit more range than HAMS. 3-4 km is enough. There is no need of more explosion velocity or damage. Just a tiny bit more range...


Or more sensibly they should nerf HAMS to actual cruiser sized range as torps have good range its has the best optimal range at battleship level there range is upto long point range beyond that you don't really need to use torps that and the raven can easily get the extra range you want.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#726 - 2013-04-24 13:35:47 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
[

Or more sensibly they should nerf HAMS to actual cruiser sized range as torps have good range its has the best optimal range at battleship level there range is upto long point range beyond that you don't really need to use torps that and the raven can easily get the extra range you want.



HAMS are still inside cruiser size range. They are are effective up to 16-17 km ( travel time allows target to move etc..) That is well within pulses and AC effective range. Hams otherwise would be too hard to use outside caldari ships


Torpedoes have no range degradation but have base degradation due to speed of target. They do not nee to have same range as mega pulses, no one wants that.


I cannot see why ANYONE would think 24 km range torps would be anywhere overpowered.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#727 - 2013-04-24 14:17:13 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
[

Or more sensibly they should nerf HAMS to actual cruiser sized range as torps have good range its has the best optimal range at battleship level there range is upto long point range beyond that you don't really need to use torps that and the raven can easily get the extra range you want.


HAMS are still inside cruiser size range. They are are effective up to 16-17 km ( travel time allows target to move etc..) That is well within pulses and AC effective range. Hams otherwise would be too hard to use outside caldari ships

Torpedoes have no range degradation but have base degradation due to speed of target. They do not nee to have same range as mega pulses, no one wants that.

I cannot see why ANYONE would think 24 km range torps would be anywhere overpowered.


You're not looking at the javelins are you? 24km on cruiser weapons is very strong compare it to scorch.. barrage... null
only scorch compare well but lasers are meant to have the strongest range as a tradeoff for crazy cap usage where is the tradeoff for missiles?
16-17km on high damage ammo is battleship level look at conflag.. hail..void on battleships.... now you might get it.
look at cruiser high damage ammo .. void...LOL range... conflag....hail.... see the difference

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#728 - 2013-04-24 14:32:21 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
[

Or more sensibly they should nerf HAMS to actual cruiser sized range as torps have good range its has the best optimal range at battleship level there range is upto long point range beyond that you don't really need to use torps that and the raven can easily get the extra range you want.


HAMS are still inside cruiser size range. They are are effective up to 16-17 km ( travel time allows target to move etc..) That is well within pulses and AC effective range. Hams otherwise would be too hard to use outside caldari ships

Torpedoes have no range degradation but have base degradation due to speed of target. They do not nee to have same range as mega pulses, no one wants that.

I cannot see why ANYONE would think 24 km range torps would be anywhere overpowered.


You're not looking at the javelins are you? 24km on cruiser weapons is very strong compare it to scorch.. barrage... null
only scorch compare well but lasers are meant to have the strongest range as a tradeoff for crazy cap usage where is the tradeoff for missiles?
16-17km on high damage ammo is battleship level look at conflag.. hail..void on battleships.... now you might get it.
look at cruiser high damage ammo .. void...LOL range... conflag....hail.... see the difference



Missiles are, or at least always were the longest range, followed by lasers. That mainly because missiles loose a part of that range on the time to accelerate and another part due to target moving while the missile flight.

24 Km theoretical range means effectively 20 km

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#729 - 2013-04-24 14:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarius
MrDiao wrote:
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done


"Seems" does not work. just log into duality and fight an armor hurricane with typhoon, fight the armor hurricane with megathron, and then fight the megathron with typhoon, then you can draw a conclusion.


...

I didn't noticed your last typhoon kill was a with a suicide smartbomb fit in July 2011 ... we are not playing the same game, sorry.

As concluson, i will engage and win of course.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#730 - 2013-04-24 14:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

I'm not ignoring anything, I promise. I think many of the last few posts are kind of extreme, but I also agree that the Tempest potentially falls short considering the rest of the changes in this pass. For now, I don't want to make a change. I'd rather wait a little longer (hopefully for sisi testing) to get the best overall sense possible, then make some adjustments. Part of the reason for not committing to something now is that it may be that other ships (like the Hyperion) need adjustments as well (if its too strong) and so I want to wait until we feel we've got the best sense possible for the entire class before we make final changes.

We'll keep looking at the Tempest though, and if it does end up feeling too weak, we'll make a change.

Thanks for keeping us updated Rise. I was just a little curious on what you meant by some of the last suggestions where extreme.

Specifically I wondered what you though of the idea of dropping a launcher slot from the typhoon, and giving it an increased drone bay again to compensate. Perhaps a few other tweaks would be necessary also to bring it in line, but I think a lot of people would support this as we would rather have the ultility of the drones than the outright on paper greater dps of the extra launcher slot.

This is a proposal I came up with a while ago for the typhoon in the thread. Obviously it is basic so would need tweaks but the idea is there.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Typhoon:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher explosion velocity

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets, 5 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 12500 PWG, 640 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 6000 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1087s / 4.97
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .11 / 103600000 / 15.8
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 (+25) / 200 (+100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 19 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 330

I can imagine fitting the Typhoon proposed above something like this

[Typhoon, Typhoon]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Hobgoblin II x10
Ogre II x6

The torp launchers put out 826 dps at max skills, the unbonused autos would put out an extra 111 dps, then unbonused heavy drones an additional 317.

This way the Typhoon still can fully utilise all 3 weapon systems, including a decently sized drone bay, and does not simply become and armoured Raven.

Looks quite fun to fit and fly, and still maintains a good use for all 3 weapons systems if required. That is pretty cookie cutter though, I'm sure the ship engineers could come up with something much better.

Also, nothing to dramatic on the Tempest please from my point of view. I think it is looking good at the moment. Perhaps the bonuses could be looked at and a few tweaks to the attributes but I wouldn't want to see a slot layout change personally.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#731 - 2013-04-24 15:51:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
(hopefully for sisi testing)



When might that be? Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#732 - 2013-04-24 16:09:51 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Also, nothing to dramatic on the Tempest please from my point of view. I think it is looking good at the moment. Perhaps the bonuses could be looked at and a few tweaks to the attributes but I wouldn't want to see a slot layout change personally.



I think the Tempest could use some more tweaking, there are a number directions that CCP could take if they chose to do so. And I am not going to pretend to know the best one to take. I can only state my personal desires on the matter. In truth that all any of us can do. I just want the Tempest to be a competitive projectile armed battleship that can armor tank. If that can be done with out changing it's slot lay out then all the better. But if it turns out that CCP believes that changing the slot lay out will result in a ship that will be viable and usable in more situations then I wouldn't want to tie their hands to having to stay with one concept.

To be truthful I am not expecting CCP to get the Tempest right the first time, but what I am hoping for is that they will come back and revisit the ship like they did the Stabber. I think real world data will go a long way to highlight any short comings the Tempest may have in comparison to the other attack battleships. My arty and auto cannon Tempest hulls have been pretty much been in mothballs since the Tornado and blaster buff came about accordingly. So I can wait a while longer if need be to fly them again.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#733 - 2013-04-24 16:11:47 UTC
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
Icarius wrote:
MrDiao wrote:
The torpedo typhoon is still too bad to use.



You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done


"Seems" does not work. just log into duality and fight an armor hurricane with typhoon, fight the armor hurricane with megathron, and then fight the megathron with typhoon, then you can draw a conclusion.


...

I didn't noticed your last typhoon kill was a with a suicide smartbomb fit in July 2011 ... we are not playing the same game, sorry.

As concluson, i will engage and win of course.

Then get on duality and record your "win"

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#734 - 2013-04-24 16:45:43 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Also, nothing to dramatic on the Tempest please from my point of view. I think it is looking good at the moment. Perhaps the bonuses could be looked at and a few tweaks to the attributes but I wouldn't want to see a slot layout change personally.

I think the Tempest could use some more tweaking, there are a number directions that CCP could take if they chose to do so. And I am not going to pretend to know the best one to take. I can only state my personal desires on the matter. In truth that all any of us can do. I just want the Tempest to be a competitive projectile armed battleship that can armor tank. If that can be done with out changing it's slot lay out then all the better. But if it turns out that CCP believes that changing the slot lay out will result in a ship that will be viable and usable in more situations then I wouldn't want to tie their hands to having to stay with one concept.


It seems you have many different camps on the Tempest due to the fact that it is at the moment a swiss army knife of battleships. It can be used either shield, armour, artillery and autocannons effectively. To top it all off it has two high utility slots which can be used to increase DPS or fit with other high slot modules. It is just like the hurricane really in this respect and that is what I love about it and I make use of all the different options reguarly.

But you have camps of people who use it either exclusively in one way or the other and so naturally they would prefer to see the way that they use the ship buffed. Essentially it will then become pigeon holed into the role in which it is buffed and will lose all its other uses and essentially lose its essence.

If you buff its shield ability then armour users will inevitable lose out and vice versa. If you buff short range autos then long range artillery users will lose out and vice versa. If you buff its overall EHP then signature and agility will suffer and vice versa.

I think the one thing everyone can agree on though is to increase its damage output as this will complement every play style for the ship equally and no one would argue. This could be done via the ship bonuses and so I think perhaps this is the way to go if any further changes are necessary.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#735 - 2013-04-24 18:30:19 UTC
You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges. Shield Fitted with tracking mods, it's suddenly competitive on the damage output, but a complete paper tiger tank wise.

Armour tanking, it neither has the dps or the ehp to be competitive, to be honest, it was never really good for anything but pretending to be a BC, and now that BS hulls have been normalised, is even less likely to be considered by anyone as the go to ship for a specific role. Hell, it can't even master the jack of all trades role any more as I see the new or old typhoon being superior in that regard.

So, instead of trying to make the tempest better than X at Y, it should be made into the ship that either offers unparalleled flexibility with a 7/6/6 layout (even armour tankers lose more than they gain), or turned into a kind of minmatar disruption ship (8% rof, 12.5% target painting bonus) because what this game needs more of, is new paradigms instead of trying to turn a ship into yet another racial facsimile of the typical armour tanking battleship.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#736 - 2013-04-24 18:34:34 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges.



That is not true at all.


Blaster damage is so much higher that this is simply a fallacy. Up to something like 18 km Blasters completely outdamage 800mm Autocannons. with same number of damage mods blasters outdamage AC completely inside tackle range, as they are supposed to. Not to forget taht blaster ships also bring extra drones to help with even more damage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#737 - 2013-04-24 18:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


It seems you have many different camps on the Tempest due to the fact that it is at the moment a swiss army knife of battleships. It can be used either shield, armour, artillery and autocannons effectively. To top it all off it has two high utility slots which can be used to increase DPS or fit with other high slot modules. It is just like the hurricane really in this respect and that is what I love about it and I make use of all the different options reguarly.

B



As swiss army knife.. in a battleship fight..... exactly that is what the tempest fits now. Specially appropriated because Swiss never was known for battleships... never even had a navy at all :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#738 - 2013-04-24 19:23:28 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges.



That is not true at all.


Blaster damage is so much higher that this is simply a fallacy. Up to something like 18 km Blasters completely outdamage 800mm Autocannons. with same number of damage mods blasters outdamage AC completely inside tackle range, as they are supposed to. Not to forget taht blaster ships also bring extra drones to help with even more damage.


Your basically proving my point. Blaster damage is so much higher than autocannons on purpose, the only real way it begins to look competitive is when you compare shield with armour fits.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kane Fenris
NWP
#739 - 2013-04-24 19:53:16 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges.



That is not true at all.


Blaster damage is so much higher that this is simply a fallacy. Up to something like 18 km Blasters completely outdamage 800mm Autocannons. with same number of damage mods blasters outdamage AC completely inside tackle range, as they are supposed to. Not to forget taht blaster ships also bring extra drones to help with even more damage.


Your basically proving my point. Blaster damage is so much higher than autocannons on purpose, the only real way it begins to look competitive is when you compare shield with armour fits.




youre right and it wouldnt matter at al taht yore right if there was no one on earth that wants to do solo pvp in a tempest (which is the only minmatarship after balance which is remotely capable of doing such thing, and yes i know bs solo pvp is some kind of ******** idea but those are somtimes the most fun ones).

sadly you need to be in longpoint to do so where every galente ship will do more dps
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#740 - 2013-04-24 22:52:31 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Krell Kroenen wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Also, nothing to dramatic on the Tempest please from my point of view. I think it is looking good at the moment. Perhaps the bonuses could be looked at and a few tweaks to the attributes but I wouldn't want to see a slot layout change personally.

I think the Tempest could use some more tweaking, there are a number directions that CCP could take if they chose to do so. And I am not going to pretend to know the best one to take. I can only state my personal desires on the matter. In truth that all any of us can do. I just want the Tempest to be a competitive projectile armed battleship that can armor tank. If that can be done with out changing it's slot lay out then all the better. But if it turns out that CCP believes that changing the slot lay out will result in a ship that will be viable and usable in more situations then I wouldn't want to tie their hands to having to stay with one concept.


It seems you have many different camps on the Tempest due to the fact that it is at the moment a swiss army knife of battleships. It can be used either shield, armour, artillery and autocannons effectively. To top it all off it has two high utility slots which can be used to increase DPS or fit with other high slot modules. It is just like the hurricane really in this respect and that is what I love about it and I make use of all the different options reguarly.

But you have camps of people who use it either exclusively in one way or the other and so naturally they would prefer to see the way that they use the ship buffed. Essentially it will then become pigeon holed into the role in which it is buffed and will lose all its other uses and essentially lose its essence.

If you buff its shield ability then armour users will inevitable lose out and vice versa. If you buff short range autos then long range artillery users will lose out and vice versa. If you buff its overall EHP then signature and agility will suffer and vice versa.

I think the one thing everyone can agree on though is to increase its damage output as this will complement every play style for the ship equally and no one would argue. This could be done via the ship bonuses and so I think perhaps this is the way to go if any further changes are necessary.



u sir are a cerbear who has no ******* clue what he is talking about ....time u got out of empire and maybe got your head out of your arse and see the problem here ...real pvp'ers use tornados insteed of tempest to snipe ..0.0 is full of them ..even jita is full of them second off if people want autocannons 9/10 will go for a hurricane insteed of a tempest ...9/10 will go for a maelstrom insteed of a tempest if they can fly only minmatar no one uses it it has bad slot layout u cant armor buff it decently u cant shield buff it decently u cant do proper dmg in it ...not even outspeed something is usless in everyway u put it