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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#141 - 2013-04-17 13:46:26 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don't have time for some witty comment here, so I'll just have to go with something simple and short. Something that will get this thread back up on top and only take a few seconds. Wish I had more time, but I just don't.

Bump

That's ok.

Like a cloaked vessel, we will give it credit for having cynos and a full fleet waiting on being unleashed at any moment.

The bumping will continue.... look, I even bumped it just now!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#142 - 2013-04-17 18:06:15 UTC
Decloaking thread... light the Links for the other threads to come through and gank the forums!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Twisted

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2013-04-18 18:23:08 UTC
So I was on my way to Fircoure to do some afk camping, but damn all the neutrals in local. I realized I'd never make it past that many neutrals and gave up. Ugh

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2013-04-19 20:08:08 UTC
Decloaking thread....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#145 - 2013-04-20 05:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Azrael Dinn
Teckos Pech wrote:
Decloaking thread....


Oh no you don't

Cloaks up! Twisted

Hey we haven't talked about cloaking in a while. I was just wondering (cause I don't know), how would probes ruin wormholes if they could find covert ships?

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#146 - 2013-04-20 12:35:58 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Decloaking thread....


Oh no you don't

Cloaks up! Twisted

Hey we haven't talked about cloaking in a while. I was just wondering (cause I don't know), how would probes ruin wormholes if they could find covert ships?

Wormholes want the security that comes with using cloaks to hide from each other, and they accept the uncertainty that goes hand in hand with it.
They are happy knowing that if they decloak in order to fight some NPC, or transfer PI materials, opponents won't know they are present unless a probe spots them at that moment or they get d-scanned.

It is the true wilderness.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#147 - 2013-04-20 19:42:07 UTC
Seems this threads cloak needs turning off........... P

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2013-04-21 01:34:00 UTC
I can't believe this, I'm cloaked and camping Fricoure and people just keep undocking and doing stuff...WTF?!!?!?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#149 - 2013-04-21 02:30:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I can't believe this, I'm cloaked and camping Fricoure and people just keep undocking and doing stuff...WTF?!!?!?

Oh that... If you shoot them they scream in panic and flee.

Well... that or they shoot back, either way ...WIN!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2013-04-21 05:13:18 UTC
So the great debate nerf cloaky camper vs nerf local. Lets look at these thingers for a minute and see what the fuss is about.

First why are cloaky campers such a big sore spot? Why do people complain about cloaky campers so much but you never hear anyone whine about Hell Camps or Roams etc etc. Why is it cloaky campers specifically?

Answer: Force projection.
The problem: Afk cloakers project an amount of potential force while afk. It can just be a solo pvp pilot or a cyno alt for a cap fleet but is more often than not a covert cyno alt. The problem with this force projection is that it is only counterable by a couple of things which the cloaky pilot can assess and take action (generally by not taking action). You can move and let your system's industry fall out as the usual afk camper intends. Or you can keep security around the clock waiting for the 2 or 3 times out of 23 hours the afk cloaky guy decides to make a move.

AFK > Active Pilots

Then there's the sentiment about nerfing local. Why do people want this and what does it mean to everyone?

Answer: The cloaky gankers want this to make ganking easier. This is along the same lines as the nerf high sec's safety. They're just a small minority that want to get easy kills with minimal effort/risk. Nerfing local chat would in fact reduce the risk for cloaky campers and cloaky guys of all types. It would also make it nearly impossible for anyone to rat/mine in null with any way of protecting themselves short of having 23/7 security.

If this were to happen people would probably migrate to WH space, high sec or just unsub.

You're probably wondering why WH if there's no local there already? Well it's pretty simple.

1: Cloaky campers in WH space cannot hotdrop you.
2: WH space does not have map data associated with it such as pilots in space in the last 30 min.
3: WH space actually has a great reward incentive for the moment, so losing ships is not as big of a deal.
4: WH space cannot be accessed on demand. Getting a camper into one of those systems is not easy.

There really does need to be something done about afk campers. Really the problem has to do with Cloaky Cynos. Maybe there needs to be something done with the combination of the 2 modules. Maybe the Cyno module prevent the cloaking module from cycling indefinately.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2013-04-21 23:15:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nerfing cloaky campers will mean that there is no counter for local and that there is virtually no risk to any PVE pilot who is paying attention to local and staying (actively) aligned.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#152 - 2013-04-21 23:24:19 UTC
I think what people don't understand, like what Erutpar Ambient Demonstrated is that, one must keep the system in balance, at the moment the system IS BALANCED. Here the TDL version of the current balance system

to nerf local, you must nerf cloak
to nerf cloak, you must nerf local

When those conditions apply, normally things are rather balance, force projection is on it only slightly different topic cause of the bandaid bridge theory, but Cyno was not only made to avoid local, but because of it super caps depend on it for a means of transportation.... Which also means Cyno should be balanced carefully as well, the current and MAIN way to counter force projection is to block all normal cynos in general, black ops cynos are there to dodge cyno blockers.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”
Deacon Ix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-04-21 23:37:07 UTC
To add my Whine ot the multitude

linkie

Though I feel my suggetion isn't targeted at AFK cloakies just at ones you know the rough location of...
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2013-04-22 05:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Erutpar Ambient
DataRunner Attor wrote:
I think what people don't understand, like what Erutpar Ambient Demonstrated is that, one must keep the system in balance, at the moment the system IS BALANCED. Here the TDL version of the current balance system

to nerf local, you must nerf cloak
to nerf cloak, you must nerf local

When those conditions apply, normally things are rather balance, force projection is on it only slightly different topic cause of the bandaid bridge theory, but Cyno was not only made to avoid local, but because of it super caps depend on it for a means of transportation.... Which also means Cyno should be balanced carefully as well, the current and MAIN way to counter force projection is to block all normal cynos in general, black ops cynos are there to dodge cyno blockers.


The system is not balanced.

AFK cloak camping is the pvp version of Ice mining in high sec. The difference is, instead of having to offload every 35,000 m3 full you can just sit there all day and continuously project force until someone makes the mistake of having a nice ship out at the moment you decide to come back and scan for ships.

The risk of cloaky camping is nothing. The reward: bleeding your victims dry while their systems fall back to zero indy/military levels.

I'm sure cloaky camping has a pretty heavy impact on the "fullness" of nullsec.

example:
New alliance moves to Null as a renter. The day they move in someone plants a cloaky camper alt in each of their systems. A few days later the new alliance grows some huevos and starts mining/ratting in spite of the camper. The camper's alliance covert cynos in their 40+ bombers and such and kills a hulk and/or faction BS or 2. The new alliance moves back out of null sec. Null sec remains empty. Mission accomplished?

If this was just 1 person ganking people that would be totally fine. But when you cov cyno in a 40+ blop drop then what do you do? Keep 40+ people ready at all times to reverse gank the blop drop? Yeah, good luck with that.

TLDR; Cloaky Camper Blop Drop = Empty 0.0

GL on your next roam

Edit: My solution.
In the spirit of Odyssey I agree with the scanning probes. But here's how the system would work. Cloaking devices generate a "Cloak Signature" the longer they cycle continuously the larger the "Cloak Signature" becomes. So for a few hours you'll be unscannable but if you spend too much time without manually cycling your cloak you're going to get caught.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2013-04-22 14:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

The system is not balanced.


Yes, it is. Cloaky camping is a counter for the intel capabilities local provides. Local is a counter to cloaky camping.

To be more clear:

Cloaky camping provides a way to deny resources and assets to pilots in null via the excellent intel capabilities of local. Local is a counter to cloaky camping since local tells the pilot who was going to do some PVE that there is a hostile in system.

Quote:
AFK cloak camping is the pvp version of Ice mining in high sec. The difference is, instead of having to offload every 35,000 m3 full you can just sit there all day and continuously project force until someone makes the mistake of having a nice ship out at the moment you decide to come back and scan for ships.

The risk of cloaky camping is nothing. The reward: bleeding your victims dry while their systems fall back to zero indy/military levels.


There are very few rewards other than asset/resource denial. And that is a total valid game mechanic. Denying the enemy access to resources (including isk) is nothing new.

Quote:
example:
New alliance moves to Null as a renter. The day they move in someone plants a cloaky camper alt in each of their systems. A few days later the new alliance grows some huevos and starts mining/ratting in spite of the camper. The camper's alliance covert cynos in their 40+ bombers and such and kills a hulk and/or faction BS or 2. The new alliance moves back out of null sec. Null sec remains empty. Mission accomplished?


Couple of points:

1. Work as a group in the above situation. A gang of bombers is not that tough...in fact they are paper thin.
2. When cloaky campers are in system don't rat in a pimped out fit, rat in something:
2.a. you can afford to lose
2.b. you can fit with and eye more towards pvp (remember part 1, rat/mine in a fleet)

As for the above alliance they were doing it wrong when the cloaky campers hit their systems.

Quote:
If this was just 1 person ganking people that would be totally fine. But when you cov cyno in a 40+ blop drop then what do you do? Keep 40+ people ready at all times to reverse gank the blop drop? Yeah, good luck with that.

TLDR; Cloaky Camper Blop Drop = Empty 0.0


A fine bit of exaggeration. Some parts of null are empty, and one reason could be cloaky campers, but you are, IMO, vastly over stating the case here. The bigger reason that null is empty is because for low true sec systems doing much in them truly sucks ass. Mining? Nope. Ratting? Nope. Building? Aside from supers and titans that is a pathetic joke in all of null for the most part.

Quote:
Edit: My solution.
In the spirit of Odyssey I agree with the scanning probes. But here's how the system would work. Cloaking devices generate a "Cloak Signature" the longer they cycle continuously the larger the "Cloak Signature" becomes. So for a few hours you'll be unscannable but if you spend too much time without manually cycling your cloak you're going to get caught.


Talk about wanting to do something for very little risk. "Let me scan down cloaked ships, which have no tank, crap DPS, and shoot them or drive them off so I can PvE with minimal risk."

Have you ever had 2 clients opened and had 2 characters in adjacent systems and jumped character A into the same system as character B? Try it. But in case you don't have this capability I'll tell you what you'll see. A will be visible in local to B well before A loads grid. If A were to try and "catch" B, he would not be able to do it, since B gets about 1-2 seconds advanced warning he has a new person in system.

So, in regards to your solution: No!

At least not without making some sort of change to local so that it is not, in effect, giving advanced warning that hostiles are in system. And that is another reason roams are so boring...any pilot paying attention to intel channels, local and being actively aligned is going to be nearly impossible to catch.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2013-04-22 15:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Two additional points:

1. An AFK campy cloaker has never lit a cyno ever...in fact no AFK player has ever lit a cyno.
2. When ratting (in a group) poop out some cans to make it harder for the cloaked ship to approach you.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#157 - 2013-04-22 15:22:47 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:


The system is not balanced.

AFK cloak camping is the pvp version of Ice mining in high sec. The difference is, instead of having to offload every 35,000 m3 full you can just sit there all day and continuously project force until someone makes the mistake of having a nice ship out at the moment you decide to come back and scan for ships.

The risk of cloaky camping is nothing. The reward: bleeding your victims dry while their systems fall back to zero indy/military levels.

I'm sure cloaky camping has a pretty heavy impact on the "fullness" of nullsec.

example:
New alliance moves to Null as a renter. The day they move in someone plants a cloaky camper alt in each of their systems. A few days later the new alliance grows some huevos and starts mining/ratting in spite of the camper. The camper's alliance covert cynos in their 40+ bombers and such and kills a hulk and/or faction BS or 2. The new alliance moves back out of null sec. Null sec remains empty. Mission accomplished?

If this was just 1 person ganking people that would be totally fine. But when you cov cyno in a 40+ blop drop then what do you do? Keep 40+ people ready at all times to reverse gank the blop drop? Yeah, good luck with that.

TLDR; Cloaky Camper Blop Drop = Empty 0.0

GL on your next roam

Edit: My solution.
In the spirit of Odyssey I agree with the scanning probes. But here's how the system would work. Cloaking devices generate a "Cloak Signature" the longer they cycle continuously the larger the "Cloak Signature" becomes. So for a few hours you'll be unscannable but if you spend too much time without manually cycling your cloak you're going to get caught.



Couple of points I would like to make in response to you Erutpar Ambient

1. This does not sound like a cloaking issue, its more like a Cyno issue. So add a delay on lighting a cyno when dropping cloak (similar to the targeting delay)#

2. "kills a hulk and/or faction BS or 2. The new alliance moves back out of null sec" SERIOUSLY???, you loose a hulk in ZeroSec and run back to High.... Sheesh, Man-Up already!

3. Your probes totally break Wormholes. Well Done!

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#158 - 2013-04-22 16:17:18 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:

3. Your probes totally break Wormholes. Well Done!


I think you exagerate.

I honnestly think probes that can detect ships that have been cloacked for a very long period should help find them. The cloack "signature" feature he is suggesting is a good idea. I do not see why it could not be implemented. If this would be a REAL problem for WH residents, maybe offlining a few modules could help reduce this signature therefore, increasing the time it takes for the probes to be able to detect your presence.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2013-04-22 17:09:30 UTC
Random Majere wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:

3. Your probes totally break Wormholes. Well Done!


I think you exagerate.

I honnestly think probes that can detect ships that have been cloacked for a very long period should help find them. The cloack "signature" feature he is suggesting is a good idea. I do not see why it could not be implemented. If this would be a REAL problem for WH residents, maybe offlining a few modules could help reduce this signature therefore, increasing the time it takes for the probes to be able to detect your presence.


Do you even play the game? If your cloak is active you cannot activate any other modules.

Cyno delay on covert ops? Why not simply propose removal of said ships? Probably alot easier to implement.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#160 - 2013-04-22 18:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Random Majere
Teckos Pech wrote:
Random Majere wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:

3. Your probes totally break Wormholes. Well Done!


I think you exagerate.

I honnestly think probes that can detect ships that have been cloacked for a very long period should help find them. The cloack "signature" feature he is suggesting is a good idea. I do not see why it could not be implemented. If this would be a REAL problem for WH residents, maybe offlining a few modules could help reduce this signature therefore, increasing the time it takes for the probes to be able to detect your presence.


Do you even play the game? If your cloak is active you cannot activate any other modules.

Cyno delay on covert ops? Why not simply propose removal of said ships? Probably alot easier to implement.

Roll


LOL...Either you didnt get what I said or you do not know the difference between offlining a module and activating it. If a guy wants to cloack in a system, go to work, see a movie, go dancing, and then comes back fly is internet spaceship and get an easy kill...there should be a price for that. You dont want the big bad probes to find you??? Well, your modules (except your cloack) need to be offline bud!! You then need to de-cloack in your safe to online them back.

If probes that can detect cloacked ships really is a problem for WHs, maybe they could be made ineffective in them (because of some natural phenomena). I have no problem with that.

Also, where did I say in my previous post that I wanted a cyno delay on covert ops?

So...remove local...nerf AFK cloacking everywhere except WHs....everyone wins!! Cool