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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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New Player - some exemplary issues with the Eve Wiki

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Author
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-04-21 21:18:47 UTC
Hi,

it seems accepted by now that eve has a learning curve and is not the easiest way to get into.
ok. no problem with that.
the official wiki however seems to be written from pro players/progger to pro players/progger and not with new players in mind.
its unbelivable how many examples and references are out there pointing to just another unknown term which will leave a new player scratching his head.
it would be extremely easy to have some eve wizards with social skills overwork your wiki for a broader audience, to ease the pain getting into it.
i created a screenshot from the fitting strategy page, a page where you are being referred early in the tutorials.
first time i played it, all this page made little to no sense to me. the only enlightenment i got was from player wikis, forum entries and other pages.

link to the commented screenshot:

fitting strategy - commented screenshot

cheers,
kriegskind
Andres Talas
The Industrial Supremacy
The Rejected.
#2 - 2013-04-21 21:58:22 UTC
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind wrote:
Hi,

it seems accepted by now that eve has a learning curve and is not the easiest way to get into.
ok. no problem with that.
the official wiki however seems to be written from pro players/progger to pro players/progger and not with new players in mind.
its unbelivable how many examples and references are out there pointing to just another unknown term which will leave a new player scratching his head.
it would be extremely easy to have some eve wizards with social skills overwork your wiki for a broader audience, to ease the pain getting into it.
i created a screenshot from the fitting strategy page, a page where you are being referred early in the tutorials.
first time i played it, all this page made little to no sense to me. the only enlightenment i got was from player wikis, forum entries and other pages.

link to the commented screenshot:

fitting strategy - commented screenshot

cheers,
kriegskind


Theres a player called Ali Aras, who is probably getting elected to the Council of Stellar Management. She's a relatively new player, and part of an alliance that does more than most encourages new players (*).

She's someone you should liaise with on this, as she's going to be the point person for the player base on New Player Issues.



(*) Personal note. Im personally Kill On Sight in Provi, but encourage peaceful and less peaceful people to go visit there.
dark heartt
#3 - 2013-04-22 00:18:55 UTC
Yeah it's bee like that for some time. But the player wikis are usually going to be better than anything CCP could put together. I'd personally recommend the Eve University wiki as they have topic for beginners and advanced players.
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-04-22 07:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
thanks both of you for the suggestions. highly appreciated.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-04-22 09:00:47 UTC
You do know what the idea behind wiki's are. Anybody can edit them.

So if you feel like it could be better, change it.

Some of your points in the picture are totally valid. But also some stuff IS explained in the tutorial. And then there is (rookie) help, this forum and loads of helpful people who can help you answer questions. Its a MMO so start interactjng with others.

Hell. If you did show us you looked at the thread and asked if we could explain the difference between high/mid/low slots and hardpoints etc. You will be amazed how many people will be happy to help you.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-04-22 11:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
J'Poll wrote:
You do know what the idea behind wiki's are. Anybody can edit them..


true for non commercial or open source projects. Does it apply here ? Because i am surely missing something in that case.

J'Poll wrote:
So if you feel like it could be better, change it.


It could be definitely better, but i wont go further for a product i buy beside a customer feedback (which i did).
Neither will I overwork Microsoft Office Manuals nor would I do so if they would use a wiki for it. If i understood it correctly this wiki is the CCP wiki, the company wiki, ie attached to a product you pay for.

J'Poll wrote:

Some of your points in the picture are totally valid. But also some stuff IS explained in the tutorial. And then there is (rookie) help, this forum and loads of helpful people who can help you answer questions. Its a MMO so start interactjng with others..


one of the most important things when creating manuals for someone new to the software is to not reference or cross reference through different sources. while you are right that the tutorial itself brings some of these items to clarity the wiki itself should be self explaining (if thats the manual), or a manual of some form.

J'Poll wrote:
Hell. If you did show us you looked at the thread and asked if we could explain the difference between high/mid/low slots and hardpoints etc. You will be amazed how many people will be happy to help you.


for sure, but thats not the point of a manual for a commercial product. it seems i have here different expectations as to what part of the active user base is led to believe is right or what may have been settled as common sense for the eve community.
trust me on that: outside eve it is not. i am aware and thankful that the forums the chat can answer all these questions in detail.
but especially when we talk about some fundamental game mechanics such as a fitting strategy i am looking to the company which created this software to explain me in a professional manner the main core features of their software mechanic.

the contstant imrpovement on these fields (ie tutorial, wiki etc) does show though that CCP is aware of these issues indeed. A lot was added and improved over the years but its far from being finished.
if CCP gets their documentation and introductions right this software could address a much broader audience. its very "sporty" to let a coder or nerd write the documentation for an end user, unless he is one gifted genius which is rarely the case.
The outcome can be seen in some interface choices (as this also applies for UI-decisions) and more important manuals.

this game is complex yes, but the cross referencing manuals make it over complicated and time intensive while the latter points are not based on the complexity of the game but on the inability to explain. I would understand it from the perspective of a specific part of a user base which actually implies an "elevation" through the mere understanding and mastering of the "eve", a status which can be protected using ingame terms and abbreviations when explaining (happens all the time, go visit Star Trek Conventions, or talk to some federal Authorities regarding their job. Both live in "their world" , have only little interest to share and will make every explanation of their doings sound like the rediscovery of sliced bread and rocket science combined.
For a commercial company like CCP this is surprising to see, unless there is indeed no interest to extend the nieche market you got hold of and get a new player base. A commercial company most vital interest is to explain the software they spent so much time, effort, love but most important $ developing as good as possible to new potential customers. This is a mandatory point to get recurring revenue from them, to ensure financial growth and thus the realization of future (great, loved, etc) projects.
If you strip it down from all "but this is EVE", than yes, It is actually as simple as that in the software world.

cheers,
kriegskind
dark heartt
#7 - 2013-04-22 12:23:25 UTC
There is an interest in attracting new players, however they do tend to encourage people to get involved with the community and other players as this game is very very focused on the multiplayer part of MMO.

As I said before the wiki has been an issue for some time, but there are several player wikis that take up the slack.
Merouk Baas
#8 - 2013-04-22 12:33:35 UTC
If CCP wanted to be the sole contributors, then they would have made it a locked website. It's a WIKI, they want us to contribute, and in fact the contributors are listed at the bottom of the pages and you can see they are players in quite a lot of the pages.

You are asking the other players to put in unpaid time to make the wiki better for you as a newbie. Unfortunately, we won't go further for a product we pay for either, so, sucks to be you, I guess nobody wants to update the thing for newbies.

Poor poor newbies.

Someone toss some bounties their way.
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-04-22 12:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
@dark heartt: good to hear. I´d wish CCP would not ease up and hope the community will deliver though. Explaining core parts of the game is their job. I wouldnt go as far as expecting an up-to-date manual for everything. But core-items should be there with high standard and top notch explanations and entries. Its in their interest ensuring an unspoiled customer experience until they got hold of the core game mechanics. After you have this base to build on it also becomes less of an issue relying on documentation featuring different quality.
Ironically as you state, the user wikis (such as eve uni or some corporate wikis and documentations) showcase the quality, while on the official site where a new player would look first you may run into pages and docs of mediocre quality.

@Merouk Baas: i dont know how much you understood of my post or why you actually roam the "EVE New Citizens Q&A" section but i wish you all the best and luck for your further in- and outgame career experiences. I dont think we have much to discuss here.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-04-22 13:12:35 UTC
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
You do know what the idea behind wiki's are. Anybody can edit them..


true for non commercial or open source projects. Does it apply here ? Because i am surely missing something in that case.

J'Poll wrote:
So if you feel like it could be better, change it.


It could be definitely better, but i wont go further for a product i buy beside a customer feedback (which i did).
Neither will I overwork Microsoft Office Manuals nor would I do so if they would use a wiki for it. If i understood it correctly this wiki is the CCP wiki, the company wiki, ie attached to a product you pay for.

J'Poll wrote:

Some of your points in the picture are totally valid. But also some stuff IS explained in the tutorial. And then there is (rookie) help, this forum and loads of helpful people who can help you answer questions. Its a MMO so start interactjng with others..


one of the most important things when creating manuals for someone new to the software is to not reference or cross reference through different sources. while you are right that the tutorial itself brings some of these items to clarity the wiki itself should be self explaining (if thats the manual), or a manual of some form.

J'Poll wrote:
Hell. If you did show us you looked at the thread and asked if we could explain the difference between high/mid/low slots and hardpoints etc. You will be amazed how many people will be happy to help you.


for sure, but thats not the point of a manual for a commercial product. it seems i have here different expectations as to what part of the active user base is led to believe is right or what may have been settled as common sense for the eve community.
trust me on that: outside eve it is not. i am aware and thankful that the forums the chat can answer all these questions in detail.
but especially when we talk about some fundamental game mechanics such as a fitting strategy i am looking to the company which created this software to explain me in a professional manner the main core features of their software mechanic.

the contstant imrpovement on these fields (ie tutorial, wiki etc) does show though that CCP is aware of these issues indeed. A lot was added and improved over the years but its far from being finished.
if CCP gets their documentation and introductions right this software could address a much broader audience. its very "sporty" to let a coder or nerd write the documentation for an end user, unless he is one gifted genius which is rarely the case.
The outcome can be seen in some interface choices (as this also applies for UI-decisions) and more important manuals.

this game is complex yes, but the cross referencing manuals make it over complicated and time intensive while the latter points are not based on the complexity of the game but on the inability to explain. I would understand it from the perspective of a specific part of a user base which actually implies an "elevation" through the mere understanding and mastering of the "eve", a status which can be protected using ingame terms and abbreviations when explaining (happens all the time, go visit Star Trek Conventions, or talk to some federal Authorities regarding their job. Both live in "their world" , have only little interest to share and will make every explanation of their doings sound like the rediscovery of sliced bread and rocket science combined.
For a commercial company like CCP this is surprising to see, unless there is indeed no interest to extend the nieche market you got hold of and get a new player base. A commercial company most vital interest is to explain the software they spent so much time, effort, love but most important $ developing as good as possible to new potential customers. This is a mandatory point to get recurring revenue from them, to ensure financial growth and thus the realization of future (great, loved, etc) projects.
If you strip it down from all "but this is EVE", than yes, It is actually as simple as that in the software world.

cheers,
kriegskind


A. The wiki is NOT a manual.

B. If you look who made the posts, you will see that a lot of non CCP people made most of the stuff.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Velicitia
XS Tech
#11 - 2013-04-22 13:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind wrote:

but especially when we talk about some fundamental game mechanics such as a fitting strategy i am looking to the company which created this software to explain me in a professional manner the main core features of their software mechanic.


"Fitting strategy" is hardly a mechanic -- it's strategy.

Most RPGs (PC/MMO, or Pen and Paper) hardly, if ever, discuss the strategy of fitting. At best, you get "these are the slots" and "This is what slot this item fits into".

The wiki (at least the screenshot you provided) isn't terrible, though it does have some things wrong (as do you -- mostly related to "I want it defined inline with pictures" instead of reading slightly further in the document).

The Wiki's problems are more because everything is edited by players (with ISD oversight). As an experiment, I added a link for Nosferatu and changed the wording a bit to be a little more clear (i doubt the linking is pretty, or "right" ... but it worked Smile... you could have done the same).

Where it mentions "high/mid/low/rig" slots, and you're saying you need a picture or something ... that's like saying you need a picture on page 1 of a player handbook to explain what your "body" or "head" slot is. It would be far more confusing to get each slot defined inline right there, than "you get these four types of slots, read on a bit and we'll tell you what they are" as it is now.

About 1/4 the way down the wiki page and then they show you the fitting window with each thing they just talked about (though, yes, an UNFIT T1 ship diagram with some labels would be better than a FIT Strat Cruiser, that's an easy fix if you have photoshop or similar... maybe I'll see about fixing that tonight, just because).

As for the "hardpoints" bit, it's the same as your argument about slots. Reading these few lines gives someone the context of "OK, I have 4 types of slots, and in high slots there are special hardpoint restrictions". Hardpoints are pretty well explained in the blue quote box immediately following the paragraph.


Quote:

Please note: If a ship has 5 high slots, of which 2 are Turret Hardpoints and 2 Missile Launcher Hardpoints, you can fit 2 Turrets, 2 Missiles and 1 Nosferatu, or substitute as many of the Turrets or Launchers with a Nosferatu as you want - so you could end up with 5 of them. However, it is not possible to fit 4 Missile Launchers or 4 Turrets on this ship.


Links to stuff you understand -- meh, that might just be the wiki doing its thing.

Bit about not explaining no mid/lowslot hardpoints (or the slots?) -- re-read that big blue box immediately above this statement, where it explains how hardpoints work.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-04-22 13:25:54 UTC
@J´Poll ok, if thats not the manual replacement where is a manual than ? (not meant as a polemic question, maybe i just missed it)
google search "eve online manual"
is the ISK guide the manual ?
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-04-22 13:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Velicitia wrote:
"Fitting strategy" is hardly a mechanic -- it's strategy..


to apply a strategy you are making use of a game mechanic, ie game design.
game mechanics

as to going through the points explaining. thanks. i never doubted that you can get to an understanding using the tutorial and wiki page. its also better than nothing for sure. the quality falls short for a professional software introduction and introducing new players.
its also not required to explain me here these points as i do know them. i was making a point regarding the shortcomings introducing a new player to the game taking that as example. as i just restarted after 1 year break and did the tutorial again i was quite surprised to see such issues with the documents involving an introduction.
and yes, i do see that a lot of ppl edited them. a lot of players even. thats ok. But would you apply the same excuse if your documentation for a software outside the gaming world would fall short your expectations ?
its really surprising how many ppl seem to think they are entitled customers by being placed in charge of some items the company itself has to deliver. such as basic but quality documentation and basic QA tests (&i dont refer test-servers here).

i wont fight for a lost cause here though, maybe thats the way everyone in EVE is happy, so i raised my point, already start to repeat myself, thus thanks for all information and discussion.

cheers,
kriegskind
Merouk Baas
#14 - 2013-04-22 13:52:56 UTC
We still arguing whose responsibility it is to keep the manual up to date?

It's obvious that CCP should put more effort into the wiki, or should entice players to contribute. But, they're busy with releasing DUST and Odyssey, and there is no rewards program, and ultimately we play for our own fun, rather than for the newbies.

I get a small amount of satisfaction from answering a few posts in the newbie forums, and I may update the odd wiki article if, say, I'm doing an exploration site and the corresponding article has no info in it, but otherwise there's nothing in it for me except wasted time.

You can see this sentiment in the quality of player corporations that you can find in-game. There are a few gems, but most of them suck or are NOT recruiting any more. Because the CEO and directors have to put in all their time to create fun and cater to all the newbies they recruit, who will then just leave, or worse (steal stuff and leave), so what's the point?

I apologize for the tone of my previous post, but you were calling on US to put in time and fix the evelopedia, and a couple posts later you expressed disinterest in putting in some of that time yourself. This attitude will be prevalent in this game, and I'm coming on strong now so that you're not shocked at just how much the playerbase will treat you as just another target to kill and loot in PVP, market competition, scam contracts, or other parts of the game.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-04-22 14:03:25 UTC
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind wrote:
@dark heartt: good to hear. I´d wish CCP would not ease up and hope the community will deliver though. Explaining core parts of the game is their job. I wouldnt go as far as expecting an up-to-date manual for everything. But core-items should be there with high standard and top notch explanations and entries. Its in their interest ensuring an unspoiled customer experience until they got hold of the core game mechanics. After you have this base to build on it also becomes less of an issue relying on documentation featuring different quality.
Ironically as you state, the user wikis (such as eve uni or some corporate wikis and documentations) showcase the quality, while on the official site where a new player would look first you may run into pages and docs of mediocre quality.

@Merouk Baas: i dont know how much you understood of my post or why you actually roam the "EVE New Citizens Q&A" section but i wish you all the best and luck for your further in- and outgame career experiences. I dont think we have much to discuss here.


A. Merouk is the good guy here. Wait till you get on my bad side.

B. Maybe because after making a whole wiki for yourself you c.b.a. to do it again for someone else as you already have your own thing to use.

C. Multiplayer part...play with others...CCP actually tries to get you to do that with their limited hand holding (which includes a manual) approach. They actually try to get you into talking to others and try to get people to share their knowledge amongst each other.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-04-22 14:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Woodstock-TC Kriegskind
Merouk BaasI wrote:
apologize for the tone of my previous post, but you were calling on US to put in time and fix the evelopedia, and a couple posts later you expressed disinterest in putting in some of that time yourself. This attitude will be prevalent in this game, and I'm coming on strong now so that you're not shocked at just how much the playerbase will treat you as just another target to kill and loot in PVP, market competition, scam contracts, or other parts of the game.


np, no hard feelings. sorry if i raised the impression complaining to/about the community regarding the quality of the manual/wiki or such.
thats something i´d come to expect from the company itself. theres ton of info to get if one is dedicated.

However from a mere professional pov (im in DTV/Automotive software biz EMEIA sales side) i just felt puzzled seeing new customers (ie market share) left aside because of the shortcomings in the current new player introductions.

//crossing fingers for DUST.

cheers,all the best&see you in space,
kriegskind
Merouk Baas
#17 - 2013-04-22 14:44:14 UTC
2003 - 2008 CCP were derided for the quality of their code. It was brilliant, but extremely unpolished and buggy. Bugs not fixed for years, bugs reappearing with a new patch after being fixed in previous patches, devs taking the servers down by mistake, all sorts of exploits being possible, patches destroying the Windows boot.ini file and blue-screening people's computers... a lot of stuff is in the past.

They've improved a lot in the past couple years, but, as you've discovered, not everything.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-04-22 15:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind wrote:
@J´Poll ok, if thats not the manual replacement where is a manual than ? (not meant as a polemic question, maybe i just missed it)
google search "eve online manual"
is the ISK guide the manual ?


EVE doesnt have a manual

I agree with Merouk.

CCP is and should be busy with the game and its expansions. And the wiki is mainly build by players. And players pay for tye game to have fun so dont blame them if keeping the wiki noob friendly isnt their way to have fun. Plenty of people who still get into EVE. I willrepeat it again.......communicate with others, if you have a couple of players in game that dont mind helping you with quedtions will be much better then some wiki.

Edit...Eve doesnt have a manual because a lot of the stuff in EVE is player made content so you cant write a manual on what players might do or dont do. And even if you would make a manual on the CCP created content it would be bigger then the bible because of all the different content and the exceptions.

ISK the guide, the WTD chart among others are the closest things that come to a manual.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Velicitia
XS Tech
#19 - 2013-04-22 16:23:46 UTC
Woodstock-TC Kriegskind wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
"Fitting strategy" is hardly a mechanic -- it's strategy..


to apply a strategy you are making use of a game mechanic, ie game design.
game mechanics


First sentence in that article: Game mechanics are constructs of rules intended to produce a game or gameplay.

A fitting strategy, while bound by the rules of the game are not part of the rules themselves.

Examples of the mechanics:
Turret Damage
Missile Damage
Stacking Penalty

Strategies
AHARM Infinite Gun ... granted this was deemed an exploit, but the fact of the matter is they took the mechanics and built a strategy around them
Tank a DD taking mechanics (stacking penalties and whatnot) and figuring out how to tank seventy thousand volley damage.

Quote:
and yes, i do see that a lot of ppl edited them. a lot of players even. thats ok. But would you apply the same excuse if your documentation for a software outside the gaming world would fall short your expectations ?


No, I would never use that excuse for documentation (gaming or otherwise). Seeing as the wiki is hardly documentation, it's not bound to the same standards as documentation. Yes, it has some documentation in it, such as the item database (scraped by a bot, IIRC), but most of the articles are player-added.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Velicitia
XS Tech
#20 - 2013-04-22 16:28:07 UTC
J'Poll wrote:

Edit...Eve doesnt have a manual because a lot of the stuff in EVE is player made content so you cant write a manual on what players might do or dont do. And even if you would make a manual on the CCP created content it would be bigger then the bible because of all the different content and the exceptions.


Old "manual" (tutorial) was great.

"Target that asteroid with [ctrl]+LMB"
"Good, now press F2 to activate your miner (stuff about obtaining mins and whatnot)"
"Eve's not that safe - see, there's a pirate that's coming to shoot you, target it like you targeted the asteroid"
"Good, now switch active targets to the pirate"
"Good, now press F1 to shoot it"
(upon rat destruction) "Great! you know how to kill stuff!"

"Welcome to EVE, enjoy your stay".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

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