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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#1721 - 2013-04-21 23:13:21 UTC
As much as I want an Abaddon with less cap problems, it would look bad with only 6 or 7 turrets (much like the 7 launcher drake).

Hopefully there is a way to resolve this issue while retaining it's ability to look like the pinnacle of Amarr battleship tech.

wumbo
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1722 - 2013-04-21 23:53:42 UTC
Eli Green wrote:
As much as I want an Abaddon with less cap problems, it would look bad with only 6 or 7 turrets (much like the 7 launcher drake).

Hopefully there is a way to resolve this issue while retaining it's ability to look like the pinnacle of Amarr battleship tech.

Indeed, and the reduction in turrets is merely one of several good and valid options myself and others have done our best to present in reasonable terms for the Devs. But, tomorrow is Mondy, and they will be returning to work, hopefully they have dedicated themselves several hours to go over these threads and discuss the options among themselves.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1723 - 2013-04-22 01:56:43 UTC
I did wish to make a comment about the whole "teiricide" stuff ...

I've been doing all these Amarr ship tests with max fitting skills, max cap skills, and Amarr BS 5
Realistically with the ability get into these ships with 1 battleship level most newer players getting into them aren't going to have level 5 skills in fitting and cap.
I am seriously concerned that though I and a few of the other testers are able to fit them and make them atleast usable that these newer players to Amarr won't be able to.
I'm just unsure with the extremely small amount of us actually testing these changes whether someone with level 3 or 4 fitting and cap skills are going to be viable in these ships.
I would like to voice my plea for the dev team or the bughunters, if they have the ability and time, to test these ships with lower skills.
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#1724 - 2013-04-22 02:25:19 UTC
Regolis wrote:
I did wish to make a comment about the whole "teiricide" stuff ...

I've been doing all these Amarr ship tests with max fitting skills, max cap skills, and Amarr BS 5
Realistically with the ability get into these ships with 1 battleship level most newer players getting into them aren't going to have level 5 skills in fitting and cap.
I am seriously concerned that though I and a few of the other testers are able to fit them and make them atleast usable that these newer players to Amarr won't be able to.
I'm just unsure with the extremely small amount of us actually testing these changes whether someone with level 3 or 4 fitting and cap skills are going to be viable in these ships.
I would like to voice my plea for the dev team or the bughunters, if they have the ability and time, to test these ships with lower skills.


Very valid point, I did run a short test ( first room of AE ) with a 3's and 4's cap skills pilot int he Apoc and was able to make it work, but it was rough.
More effort should go in to that, and most of my alts have high/perfect cap skills.

Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1725 - 2013-04-22 10:08:12 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

Well clearly even the Tier3 BS are not balanced so by that definition they will all be unbalanced.
Hyperion has poor cap for an cap intensive ship
Abbadon can't even run its guns for long
Maelstrom has poor cap aswell but ASB and projectiles give it a nice non cap using option
Rokh has poor cap aswell and very poor mobility which limits its options somewhat.


My guess would be that CCP intended tier 3 BSes to be fleet used. Yet that cannot be quite precise with hyperion or maelstrom since they have active tank bonuses which do not effect incoming external repair. I never flown Rokh but what comes to old Maelstrom and Abaddon I think they both worked quite ok with the cap they had.

If I am right that these boats should have use in fleets. It would be nice that hyperion and maelstrom active repair bonus would be rethought they are nice for solo flying but do not mix that well with fleets I believe.

Yet my point being is that these boats are probably meant to be somehow fleet point either to receive rep from logis or cap from logis.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1726 - 2013-04-22 10:10:12 UTC
Regolis wrote:
I did wish to make a comment about the whole "teiricide" stuff ...

I've been doing all these Amarr ship tests with max fitting skills, max cap skills, and Amarr BS 5
Realistically with the ability get into these ships with 1 battleship level most newer players getting into them aren't going to have level 5 skills in fitting and cap.
I am seriously concerned that though I and a few of the other testers are able to fit them and make them atleast usable that these newer players to Amarr won't be able to.
I'm just unsure with the extremely small amount of us actually testing these changes whether someone with level 3 or 4 fitting and cap skills are going to be viable in these ships.
I would like to voice my plea for the dev team or the bughunters, if they have the ability and time, to test these ships with lower skills.


Exactly what I was saying earlier..
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1727 - 2013-04-22 10:11:50 UTC
Wow ! The story of my life now ! I must be very important !

So, I provided facts (a tachyon abaddon for pve, and one for pvp) to support my arguments, and what do I get in return ? Insults, debate about how important enough I am to talk about amarr ships, or about biased I can be toward gallente, whereas how biased toward amarr most carebears can be here don't seem relevant.

BTW, reading that gallente are better than amarr is very funny, and kind of demonstrating about your knowledge of the game.

This thread looks like a club for those who already understand that amarr need more cap and fitting, and anyone daring to ask for proof is not welcome ?

So, again, I provided fits and comparison with the Abaddon. Nobody argued against them, yet I am the troll ?

Anyway, I doubt I can hope anyone of these carebears will be constructive for anything, and the case for the abaddon seem to be understood, so it must be time to look for the Apocalypse.

For pve, I only found two reasons to use beams over pulses : thermal damage and low skills ; because with the 50% range bonus, pulses will hit anything at almost any range. Remember too that a low skilled pilot will NOT use T2 guns, but meta ones, a lot easier on both fitting and cap. We also cannot expect good performances with poor skills, but I think we can assess that performances scale similarly between the races up to allV so that allV should be a good base to evaluate both the best performances of a system and how it compare to other systems.

Also, I talk about pve, because most people here seem concern by pve more than pvp, and because I don't clearly see what role the Apoc could have anyway (something it share with the Megathron for example, and possibly with the Tempest).

So for pve, the Apoc will have the same powergrid than the Abaddon, but more cap, so a similar fit should work fine. Considering the cap and bonus difference, you could remove a cap module for a tank module, something like this :
[Apocalypse, pve]

Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Reactor Control Unit II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

This is not cap stable, but you shoud have enough cap for any pve thing.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1728 - 2013-04-22 11:40:23 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Wow ! The story of my life now ! I must be very important !

So, I provided facts (a tachyon abaddon for pve, and one for pvp) to support my arguments, and what do I get in return ? Insults, debate about how important enough I am to talk about amarr ships, or about biased I can be toward gallente, whereas how biased toward amarr most carebears can be here don't seem relevant.

BTW, reading that gallente are better than amarr is very funny, and kind of demonstrating about your knowledge of the game.

This thread looks like a club for those who already understand that amarr need more cap and fitting, and anyone daring to ask for proof is not welcome ?

So, again, I provided fits and comparison with the Abaddon. Nobody argued against them, yet I am the troll ?

Anyway, I doubt I can hope anyone of these carebears will be constructive for anything, and the case for the abaddon seem to be understood, so it must be time to look for the Apocalypse.

For pve, I only found two reasons to use beams over pulses : thermal damage and low skills ; because with the 50% range bonus, pulses will hit anything at almost any range. Remember too that a low skilled pilot will NOT use T2 guns, but meta ones, a lot easier on both fitting and cap. We also cannot expect good performances with poor skills, but I think we can assess that performances scale similarly between the races up to allV so that allV should be a good base to evaluate both the best performances of a system and how it compare to other systems.

Also, I talk about pve, because most people here seem concern by pve more than pvp, and because I don't clearly see what role the Apoc could have anyway (something it share with the Megathron for example, and possibly with the Tempest).

So for pve, the Apoc will have the same powergrid than the Abaddon, but more cap, so a similar fit should work fine. Considering the cap and bonus difference, you could remove a cap module for a tank module, something like this :
[Apocalypse, pve]

Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Reactor Control Unit II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

This is not cap stable, but you shoud have enough cap for any pve thing.

Now, justify to me WHY its okay a race needs to devote its entire fit to keeping its tank active, including 3/4 midslots, 3/3 rigs, and 1/7 (sometimes more) of its lows?

though the crutch of the arguement is, this is PvE, now look at pvp, wher eyou CANT fit more than 1, 2 if you wanna push it, cap boosters so you cna get point/web, and still have to fight an enemy who is not only more stable than you, he has ALL of his rigs and mid/lows devoted to tank. Amarr dont have the staying power for solo or small gang pvp, ive tried (at frigate and cruiser level), amarr are ALWAYS forced to retreat from battle before any other race, either because their tank begins failing because they fit too many cap mods, or their cap starts failing because of too much tank/point.





also, im still butthurt about losing my geddon for a ****** droneboat.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1729 - 2013-04-22 11:54:09 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Wow ! The story of my life now ! I must be very important !

So, I provided facts (a tachyon abaddon for pve, and one for pvp) to support my arguments, and what do I get in return ? Insults, debate about how important enough I am to talk about amarr ships, or about biased I can be toward gallente, whereas how biased toward amarr most carebears can be here don't seem relevant.


Maybe because you're a troll? You've clearly admitted your bias towards Gallente before. You cherrypick your arguments. You ingore obvious issues. I'm sure I missed something here, but no matter.

Moving on...

Your "PvE" fits fit omnitank instead of rat specific hardeners. This alone displays your total lack of understanding of the topic. Hence the insults you so clearly deserve. Shame they don't get through to you.

As for PvP, there have been multiple people pointing out the issue which you consistently ingore because admitting it would demolish your line of "argumentation".
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1730 - 2013-04-22 12:41:51 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I am an incredible tool.


your fits are bad and you should feel bad.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1731 - 2013-04-22 12:48:11 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Eli Green wrote:
As much as I want an Abaddon with less cap problems, it would look bad with only 6 or 7 turrets (much like the 7 launcher drake).

Hopefully there is a way to resolve this issue while retaining it's ability to look like the pinnacle of Amarr battleship tech.

Indeed, and the reduction in turrets is merely one of several good and valid options myself and others have done our best to present in reasonable terms for the Devs. But, tomorrow is Mondy, and they will be returning to work, hopefully they have dedicated themselves several hours to go over these threads and discuss the options among themselves.


Launchers padawan launchers :p they give capacitor regen flexibility plus flexibility in damage type. Also they help use PWG and CPU in more effective manner. Give back optional launcher slots that pilots may choose which weapon type to use.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1732 - 2013-04-22 13:00:10 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Most of my frigates have 40s of cap life.

I will need more informations about what you want to do though with this one minute, but I will hapily help you.

Yep. You've clearly never done battleship PVP. Ergo you're not qualified to talk about batleship PVP. Please leave the thread.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1733 - 2013-04-22 13:23:08 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Now, justify to me WHY its okay a race needs to devote its entire fit to keeping its tank active, including 3/4 midslots, 3/3 rigs, and 1/7 (sometimes more) of its lows?

though the crutch of the arguement is, this is PvE, now look at pvp, wher eyou CANT fit more than 1, 2 if you wanna push it, cap boosters so you cna get point/web, and still have to fight an enemy who is not only more stable than you, he has ALL of his rigs and mid/lows devoted to tank. Amarr dont have the staying power for solo or small gang pvp, ive tried (at frigate and cruiser level), amarr are ALWAYS forced to retreat from battle before any other race, either because their tank begins failing because they fit too many cap mods, or their cap starts failing because of too much tank/point.

Swap the plating/membrane for whatever specific you need... But I admit that may be too much for your brains, already overloaded by all the cap modules I guess...

But I'm glad we're now moving on a more serious subject : pvp.

And indeed amarr ships are not the best for active tanking. But you should try buffer : *no ship* in the game tank better than amarr ships. If you lack staying power in your ship, you are fitting it wrong. The punisher, maller and prophecy for example make for the most resilient ships in their class. Amarr; since the rebalance, have very powerful options for everything they want.

Amarr are not ideal for solo pvp, that's by design, because that's where gallente and minmatar should excel.

I won't even anwser the other trolls (Daniel Plain, Ayla Crenshawmore concerns about insulting me than actually saying something interesting
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1734 - 2013-04-22 13:24:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Most of my frigates have 40s of cap life.

I will need more informations about what you want to do though with this one minute, but I will hapily help you.

Yep. You've clearly never done battleship PVP. Ergo you're not qualified to talk about batleship PVP. Please leave the thread.

You never used any argument, hence you're not qualified to think. Please, leave the thread.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1735 - 2013-04-22 13:34:23 UTC
Bouh/James, in the words of Grand Moff Tarkin - "This bickering is pointless"


What we currently need to to do is present CCP with actual information, proving to them that the redesigns are flawed, not poke and winge at each other over near-trivial issues.

Bouh - in your post you reference that the Minmatar/Gallente should be the solo PvP champions; I would like to disagree the point that it is just those two races: the Amarr are designed to operate within small groups, however that should not preclude them from having a ship class that can also go toe to toe with its nearest rival - otherwise no one would ever fly the other races outside of PvE

I am all for a certain balance of racial abilities; while each having their own flair and sense of being, to suit everyone's play styles and not to produce "use X ship with Y fittings = win" designs that just bore the hell out of the game.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1736 - 2013-04-22 13:53:15 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
Bouh/James, in the words of Grand Moff Tarkin - "This bickering is pointless"


What we currently need to to do is present CCP with actual information, proving to them that the redesigns are flawed, not poke and winge at each other over near-trivial issues.

Bouh - in your post you reference that the Minmatar/Gallente should be the solo PvP champions; I would like to disagree the point that it is just those two races: the Amarr are designed to operate within small groups, however that should not preclude them from having a ship class that can also go toe to toe with its nearest rival - otherwise no one would ever fly the other races outside of PvE

I am all for a certain balance of racial abilities; while each having their own flair and sense of being, to suit everyone's play styles and not to produce "use X ship with Y fittings = win" designs that just bore the hell out of the game.

I'm not arguing saying that minmatar and gallente *should* be the best a solo/small gang and amarr/caldari *should* be bad, but it just happen that, considering the base caracteristics of the ships, gallente and minmatar ships have built in advantages for this small scale combat whereas amarr and caldari have built in advantages for fleet fight.

At small scale, firepower and mobility are more important than staying power and damage projection, and that reverse at large scale. blasters and AC on their respective gallente and minmatar hull provide very good mobility and huge firepower, but their damage application is largely inferior to missiles and lasers. Caldari and amarr hull are slow for small gang and lack raw firepower compare to them, but there is nothing better than their weapons to hit past scram range, and their tank are godly.

And the reverse is also true : amarr and caldari BS make very good fleet ships overall, whereas you don't see as many gallente doctrine and the minmatar rely solely on the alpha of their artillery, because that's everything they have.

That is the theory at least. Yet, with scorch, the fastest amarr ships made very good kiters, and the same goes for caldari. And if you manage to overcome the inherent drawbacks of your hulls, you can solo, it's just not as straightforward as it is for gallente and minmatar.

As for providing informations, you cannot just look at the modules, compare the capacitor use and fitting, and make a conclusion, because these stats have no direct effect on the performances of ships. They have an effect when fitted and the actual behavior of the ship is assessed, something I feel I'm the only one to do here.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1737 - 2013-04-22 14:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You never used any argument, hence you're not qualified to think. Please, leave the thread.

Yes I have, several times, both in this thread and the other one. The fact that you haven't addressed them is your own failure, not mine.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
As for providing informations, you cannot just look at the modules, compare the capacitor use and fitting, and make a conclusion, because these stats have no direct effect on the performances of ships. They have an effect when fitted and the actual behavior of the ship is assessed, something I feel I'm the only one to do here.

Gee, maybe that's why having experience in battleship PVP is important.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1738 - 2013-04-22 15:59:37 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

The Armageddon looks like it will be able to be fit to be relatively nimble if you are going to use it (as will often be the case) for small to medium sized gang work... for a BS hull. That being said, since it lacks the speed of the Curse it will actually benefit from the range bonus MORE than the Curse does, and be far more survivable when doing it. Let's face it, the Curse is a great ship but it tends to die very quickly once attention is turned to it. The Geddon will be much more survivable in a knock down, drag out brawl situation... and much, much more likely to be used for any form of solo play as well.

The Geddon will be deadly in close range encounters, effective at mid range encounters with excellent anti tackler capability, and can be made moderately effective at longer ranges (still with great anti tackle capability).

The only way that NOS/Nuet bonus will go is if it's deemed TOO effective on this hull.


First of all is neut not nuet. Thats like 100 time you made that typo.
Second still saying its "reasonably fast" is ********, its one of the slowest battleships. Even for a battleship hull it is slow. Slap an armor tank on that and its a brick. Just drop that argument.
Saying that it great as anti tackle is also funny, considering the base range on neut is already greater than the range of point, so it will matter only in extremely unlikely circumstances like draining a tackle that is holding your fleet mate more than 30km away from you. And even that is a dumb example since in any other ship you could just kill the tackle at that range. And the comment on how the range bonus is actually better on Armageddon than on Curse is flawed. And i cant be bored to try to explain it to you.

Anyway, best of luck to you while you try to solo in this "reasonably fast" battleship. Since "reasonably fast and agile" is enough to solo in. Its a real mystery why so few (no one) fly solo in Amarr battleships.

You caught a typo, yay you. Smile

I wasn't discussing base speed, I was discussing how the ship could be set up to perform with certain fits. If you don't understand what they are, I'm sorry.

As for tackle, you do know that each race has an Interceptor that gets a range bonus on tackle right? And the various other ways that point range can be extended in a fleet?

And last but not least, the Curse is excellent but it is fragile... the Armageddon is not. It's a trade off, speed for tank.

A wise pilot knows how to leverage this, an unwise pilot runs his mouth instead. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#1739 - 2013-04-22 17:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Korgan Nailo
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Wow ! The story of my life now ! I must be very important !
...
Anyway, I doubt I can hope anyone of these carebears will be constructive for anything, and the case for the abaddon seem to be understood, so it must be time to look for the Apocalypse.
...
For pve, I only found two reasons to use beams over pulses : thermal damage and low skills ;
...
Also, I talk about pve, because most people here seem concern by pve more than pvp,
...
So for pve, the Apoc will have the same powergrid than the Abaddon, but more cap, so a similar fit should work fine.
...

Leave, just.... leave.

Btw, you won, the first guy to make my "hide posts" lists.

--== EvE Online Quick Reference Sheet: E-Uni Forums Link / EvE Forums Link ==--
SlaughterhouseDb
3MR Incorporated
#1740 - 2013-04-22 17:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: SlaughterhouseDb
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
for the oversized thing simply compare the number of turrets that Amaar and Minmatar have....


<...blah blah blah reasonable arguments...>

PS: Join my crusade to introduce the M/L Gatlings please, you seem to have a passion for lasers as I have. Just prod the Devs whenever they mention "pulse" or "laser", eventually they'll buckle or in the very least explain why not Big smile


Shocked

T...T...TACHYON GATLING LASERS! And they have to roar when they fire, AAAAUUUUUUURRRRUUUUUMMMM.