Player Features and Ideas Discussion

you and your cool posts i still remember that AT match with laser ravens doing the congo... :)
Its a shame cos i really like lasers there projection aswell as their pretty lights but they really are in dire need of help i don't understand why CCP don't just fix the cap and pg issue and then do a more in depth rebalance for the winter expansion

After extended testing and discussion of the Apoc by several people... it has been determined it overall is actually slightly easier on cap with the laser bandaid then before (the hull regen boost does make up for the loss of the old hull bonus) and thus at least as useful as before for PvE (honestly abit more so, improved tracking means improved damage application).
As for PvP, again, as good or slightly better then before with cap issues and improved damage application.

The Geddon as expected outside of it's nuet bubble while fun is weak, and even within it's nuet bubble is most definately not invincible.

The Abaddon for PvP is just going to be stuck even more relegated to the back ranks of fleets as while it is slightly easier on cap life the loss of 5% max resist bonus is a severe hit to it's tank.
As for PvE, I decided to alter my old fit to try to take advantage of the small extra cap it gets with the laser bandaid and for the first time ever threw an active resist mod onto it... a Reactive Armor Hardner. This immediately negated the extra cap and in fact took a little more of the old cap life away, making it still require (with no implants at max skills) 7 slots for cap again. I could not properly test it for tank breakage as the Reactive is not shifting it's resists properly on Duality, only applying them to the primary incoming damage type... however, I doubt that if it had instead shifted them around properly it would have made much of a difference overall, and since I was building this to stand up as a single repped ship, on the last spawn in Damsel it quickly fell apart if I wasn't warping out... definately NOT the role of our old Lion (ala Wizard of Oz) that we loved who went in and struggled along without leaving site. My old dual rep fit I could not test due to the lack of Imp Nav reppers being seeded (and LP stores apparently are disabled), but that fit was only for the extreme missions such as AE and WC... however, I strongly suspect that it will fair the same fate.

Devs, the Abaddon needs a stronger rebalance pass.
What I would like to suggest is stepping down to 7 turrets with a 7.5% per level damage bonus (equivalent of 9.625 turrets base, versus the current equivalent 10 base) and use that 19th slot where ever you feel it is appropriate for balance (i'd even be willing to see the Abaddon become the only 18 slot BS if you decided to just give it some armor love instead).
Optionally, we can go more extreme (per an earlier suggestion of mine) and go 6 turrets with 10% per level (eq. base 9 turrets) and still be 18 slots by getting rid of one slot and putting the remaining one in the lows (thus making the Abaddon the 8 low slot Amarr BS and making all of us happy that we lost that while mysteriously the Gall instead got it).

Another option which exists in regards to cap issues in general which would entirely side step ship hull tweaks (and outside of the usual rare snowflake fits won't have any effect on PvP) and instead take a closer look at cap rechargers (as the biggest issue everyone has is having to give up (before implants) 7 slots for cap (6 after a slot six and a slot eight 5% cap implants)).
I think that taking T2 cap rechargers from the current 20% up to a 23% regen bonus (assuming my math isn't too far off) would allow for 3 cap rechargers to effectively function as 4 currently do, and thus free up just 1 slot from the current extreme "cap tax" for both Gall and Amarr hulls. And we all know just how important, particularly on close range hulls, just 1 mid slot can be (even in PvE).
And a last option (potential PvP affects will follow) would be to improve the cap power relay. As for PvP ramifications, obviously no shield boosted ship would want to touch them, shield buffer fits however might feel it's worth giving up some gank to give their MWDs a longer life span without using Boosters. As for Armor tanks, well, that would balance out simply because to use it they'd have no choice but to give up on either some tank or some gank (and in regards to armor fleets, I could see this as both making them potentially less viable then shield fleets at worse, at best keeping them on par as they may decide to skip the cap booster in exchange and instead use an e-war mod in that midslot... so, as I'm tying this section, that actually potentially makes for a good balance on the armor fleet side... and on the shield side if they decide to use it instead of a cap booster. DEMMIT! Now I'm more in favor of the power relay then the cap recharger, as it broadens PvP fit options and still provides help to PvE!)

Quite true, one often (if not always) even has logistics to support cap/armour but that is the reason why the Armageddon was used in small-scale far more than the on paper superior Abaddon .. Cap.
Requiring twin injectors, one to run guns and one to counter neuts (which increase in density as gangs size decreases) on top of the rest more or less mandatory fitting makes it unviable .. and now the Apocalypse is added to the "Awesome in blobs, KB fodder outside" roster increasing the urgency of finding a solution fallout from the long overdue removal of the 10%/lvl cap bonus.

The saving grace of the proposed changes is the Armageddon, it will likely dominate the small scale while being useful in/for 'da blob' at the same time as being viable (albeit skill intensive) as a mission boat.
Expect the neut range bonus to be halved though as the full 50% puts in in direct competition with the yet to be revised Curse and with more than 31km (25%) range leaves practically no room for staying clear while pounding it, breaking balance.

[quote=Pelea Ming]

Devs, the Abaddon needs a stronger rebalance pass.
What I would like to suggest is stepping down to 7 turrets with a 7.5% per level damage bonus (equivalent of 9.625 turrets base, versus the current equivalent 10 base) and use that 19th slot where ever you feel it is appropriate for balance (i'd even be willing to see the Abaddon become the only 18 slot BS if you decided to just give it some armor love instead).
Optionally, we can go more extreme (per an earlier suggestion of mine) and go 6 turrets with 10% per level (eq. base 9 turrets) and still be 18 slots by getting rid of one slot and putting the remaining one in the lows (thus making the Abaddon the 8 low slot Amarr BS and making all of us happy that we lost that while mysteriously the Gall instead got it).

Another option which exists in regards to cap issues in general which would entirely side step ship hull tweaks (and outside of the usual rare snowflake fits won't have any effect on PvP) and instead take a closer look at cap rechargers (as the biggest issue everyone has is having to give up (before implants) 7 slots for cap (6 after a slot six and a slot eight 5% cap implants)).
I think that taking T2 cap rechargers from the current 20% up to a 23% regen bonus (assuming my math isn't too far off) would allow for 3 cap rechargers to effectively function as 4 currently do, and thus free up just 1 slot from the current extreme "cap tax" for both Gall and Amarr hulls. And we all know just how important, particularly on close range hulls, just 1 mid slot can be (even in PvE).

Yes definitely losing a turret for a utility would help and maybe a 10% damage would help its weak dps

Cap recharger is a good idea but i would also propose a change to cap batteries i posted on this thread earlier and also on module ideas would be better.

Log Day 10: I fear I am the only one left....

So it's okay for every race except for Amarr to have battleships in their lineup that can fit a full rack of their largest long-range weapons and then some?

The Hyperion and Megathron can both fit a full rack of T2 425s. The Tempest and Maelstrom can fit full racks of T2 1400s (albeit they don't have much PG left for anything else without fitting mods). The Raven can fit a full rack of T2 cruise, and the Rokh can fit a full rack of T2 425s.

Amarr? Not even counting cap mods:
Armageddon is automatically discounted since it has no bonuses for turrets, making lasers a really bad choice.

Apocalypse:
It's pretty much impossible to fit a tachyon Apocalypse without sacrificing too much to for it to be worth using. You need at least two powergrid and one CPU mod in order to fit anything resembling a tank, for example, and even then you don't break 90k EHP.
And even with the cap booster running navy cap booster 400s continuously and no other modules running (with a MWD fit) the ship runs out of cap in about 8 minutes, which is about the same time the ship runs out of cap boosters. Use 800s and the boosters will run out at around 5 minutes. Use 200s and the ship won't get enough cap and it'll run around 4 minutes.
Advantages: Great tracking, great damage projection
Disadvantages: Absolutely abysmal cap, mediocre tank

Abaddon:
Capable of fitting a more decent tank and doing decent damage, at the expense of tracking and range.
The cap however is even worse. Not only does the Abaddon have less total cap than the Apocalypse, and not only is its recharge time even longer than the Apocalypse, the Abaddon has 150 m^3 less cargo space. In other words: 12 less navy cap booster 400s, or 6 less navy cap booster 800s. Both of those are the same size as a T2 HCB reload. So the Abaddon effectively is limited to one less cycle than the Apocalypse.

CCP, both of these ships are in serious need of help and your "fix" for lasers isn't doing much to address some of the real issues behind either of them. The only reason the Armageddon is exempt from this is because you've decided that it should be free of lasers entirely. That's fine, except that you leave us with -no viable alternatives.

We (kai il, MattTrader, Pelea Ming, Weryl) have been having some chat and talking about in Duality.

It is clear that the Abaddon has a cap problem, not for now, for a very very long time.

When you compare Blasters with Pulses, they have way higher cap requirements:
http://puu.sh/2Eswe.png

Same when you compare Railguns with Beams:
http://puu.sh/2EsAR.png

However, when you compare the battleships hulls capacitor capacity and recharge time:
Apocalypse: 7000 GJ / 1000 sec
Hyperion: 7500 GJ / 1500 sec
Abaddon: 6375 GJ / 1250 sec

So, while the Hyperion, the Gallente "brawler" if you will, have guns that consume less than half the capacitor to shoot, it also has a good capacitor capacity and recharge time, capable of allowing you to have more "reasonable" fits without 5 or 6 modules / rigs dedicated to capacitor.

Another important thing, the Hyperion only uses 6 turrets, not 8 like the Abaddon or Apocalypse.

It all becomes more evident in a simple comparison. The following screenshot was taken considering:
- Duality as of Apr 21st, 2013
- Max Cap Skills
- No implants
- NAKED SHIPS, no rigs, no modules

Now check this out:
http://puu.sh/2Eua0.jpg

While the Abaddon needs more than twice the capacitor to shoot its turrets, the Hyperion has about the same recharge. The Apocalypse, given the changes in its capacitor capacity and recharge time, has a HUGE cap advantage over the other two.

With a simple cap recharge time tweak, the Abaddon would still be very vulnerable to Neuts, but at least it could use its turrets without having to compromise half of its fitting for it, exactly like the new Apocalypse.

So, my idea is: do to the Abaddon what you did to the Apocalypse after the cap bonus change. Or close to it.

If you don't want to increase the capacitor capacity, fine, but the cap recharge time must change.

My suggestion:
new Abaddon: 6500 GJ / 1000 sec recharge

It is not as powerful as the Apocalypse, it sill doesn't have the same cap capacity, but it does have a better regen.

If that is overpowered to your understanding, although it is lower than the new Apocalypse already, then just deal with the regen time:
new Abaddon: 6375 GJ (same as today) / 1000 sec recharge

There, not as powerful, but extremely more helpful.

I hope it helps.

It may or may not be enough, but its a start and its where we need to be.

Remember the Hyperion have its bonus to armor reper. The Abaddon is designed as a fleet ship, with buffer and support.

And can someone explain to me why one of the most used BS, and one of the best, namely the Abaddon, should receive a buff ?

IMO, your complaints should go to the Apocalypse, if it ever need them : this ship, the attack BS, is supposed to be the selfreliant one.

Two questions, if you don't mind : Your numbers show that the Abaddon already have the best cap regen, and the second best cap pool of former tier3 BS. Why would it need more ?

And secondly, where did you picked these numbers ? Why not "14000 / 1000s / 14.00" for example ?