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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1641 - 2013-04-19 18:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
I'm currently logged into Duality test server, they have the 'tiericided" battleships seeded. (no, they haven't seeded the new Lasers or Cruise missiles yet.) Going to Penirgman in Duality for any interested.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1642 - 2013-04-19 19:28:22 UTC
Duality Test 1

Armageddon with max fitting skills works just fine in PVE with pulses (beams don't fit)
Requires 3 CCCs and 2 Cap chargers - IS NOT CAP STABLE with pulse lasers
With Cruise missiles cap stable with 2 large armor reps

Apocalypse was fine with pulses in PVE (beam won't fit with armor repper) Mega Beam IIs leave 500 grid
Requires 3 CCCs and 2 Cap chargers - IS NOT CAP STABLE with pulse lasers


Tested both these ships in Enemies Abound 3 and 4 of 5 (similar enemies)

The current settings on Duality don't have the laser changes. The way things currently are you have to be VERY aware of where you armor values are and when to cycle (IE Pay attention) other than that the ships themselves performed like they should.

I still wish I didn't have to give 1/4 of all ship fitting to the cap but there it is.
Shani Mukantagara
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
#1643 - 2013-04-19 19:31:09 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Bhaalgorn ?
Nossing NPC is useless, they only have 1GJ cap, or some other stupid amount, it seems.
By situational I mean you won't take it onto every battle.

A Bhaalgorn will perform completely differently from the new geddon in combat. Different bonuses, and different capabilities.

Every ship in EvE is situational then. I'm not seeing your point.

I don't care about difference. It is the same argument that "ECM range is different from ECM strength". Why don't we have two ships with these bonuses separate?
If you have issues with Bhaalgorn performance - bring that to Bhaalgorn.

Ranger 1 wrote:
(By the way, you might explain this in more detail for those that think Neuts are useless.) Big smile

I don't think neuts are useless, I think that ololopvp'ers should not be allowed to touch gameplay and balance of the EVE.

You contended that we already have such a ship in the Amarr line. When I pointed out how different they are in capabiity and style of combat, your response is "I don't care about difference." Big smileBig smileBig smile
By the way, no, I don't have a problem with the Bhaalgorn. It's a great ship that fits it's role very well indeed. Your simply trying to deflect the conversation away from the fact that you don't actually have a point.

As to your assertion that developers, with a very strong background in EvE PVP, shouldn't have a hand in balancing combat vessels is perhaps the most innane comment I've seen in a very long time.

Who then "should" guide this effort? A player with extremely limited experience in PVP in general, and no verifiable experience with BS combat in particular?

Your posts got better for a while after you got called on this sort of nonsense, but now you're devolving into troll posts again.




Kill2 is a small gang roamer, and his little to no experience of being in a fleet larger than 10... I am sad to say small gang roaming died years ago and this Geddon change proves the point that he is trying to bring back the small solo game play but unfortunately the game has moved on from that.

Not only is the 'new' Geddon a solo I win boat but it will also be a fleet 'I win ship' I bet no thought has gone into the 'new' Geddon on the large fleet side of things.

To make this 'new' Geddon balanced for fleet warfare it would need to have a considerably weaker tank otherwise you will see fleets just filled with these 'new' Geddons with its only weakness being if they forget to broadcast for capacitor.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1644 - 2013-04-19 19:40:08 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Being able to NOS/nuet someone at nearly 40km, in a reasonably quick attack BS, with drones as your primary weapon and pulse lasers or missiles as your secondary weapons system (or all nuets)... really, you can't think of how that works together?

I don't have an issue with someone not understanding how to fight with NOS/Nuet equipped ships, but to make a blanket statement that NOS/Nuet range is useless is highly amusing. Smile

The ship is borderline over powered. The only thing that keeps it from going over the top is the fact that its a range bonuses instead of an amount bonus.

In fleet ops that range is not nearly big enough to make a difference, and " reasonably quick attack BS" is pure bullshit, every battleship is slow as a brick and Armageddon is the slowest one of the "attack" line, not counting tier 3 the slowest of the bunch. And its armor tanked so yeah.

I never said neuts are useless, or even that the bonus is useless, just that it is really really situational. So give an realistic engagement example that is gonna happen more than 3 times next year where the 18km range bonus will be significant advantage. This ship can not do the same things the Curse does great.

Quote:
The only thing that keeps it from going over the top is the fact that its a range bonuses instead of an amount bonus

And the only thing keeping Apocalypse from being a good ship is it has optimal bonus on lasers and not damage.

And one more time so you dont go into your loop about awesomeness of neuts - no one is saying that neuts are useless and no one is talking about the neuts themselves, its about the hull bonus.

Not to bust your chops, but large fleet operations are not the bulk of combat done in EvE. Even in those, many have action that occurs within 40km.

The Armageddon looks like it will be able to be fit to be relatively nimble if you are going to use it (as will often be the case) for small to medium sized gang work... for a BS hull. That being said, since it lacks the speed of the Curse it will actually benefit from the range bonus MORE than the Curse does, and be far more survivable when doing it. Let's face it, the Curse is a great ship but it tends to die very quickly once attention is turned to it. The Geddon will be much more survivable in a knock down, drag out brawl situation... and much, much more likely to be used for any form of solo play as well.

The Geddon will be deadly in close range encounters, effective at mid range encounters with excellent anti tackler capability, and can be made moderately effective at longer ranges (still with great anti tackle capability).

The only way that NOS/Nuet bonus will go is if it's deemed TOO effective on this hull.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1645 - 2013-04-19 19:52:39 UTC
Quote:
Kill2 is a small gang roamer, and his little to no experience of being in a fleet larger than 10... I am sad to say small gang roaming died years ago and this Geddon change proves the point that he is trying to bring back the small solo game play but unfortunately the game has moved on from that.

Not only is the 'new' Geddon a solo I win boat but it will also be a fleet 'I win ship' I bet no thought has gone into the 'new' Geddon on the large fleet side of things.

To make this 'new' Geddon balanced for fleet warfare it would need to have a considerably weaker tank otherwise you will see fleets just filled with these 'new' Geddons with its only weakness being if they forget to broadcast for capacitor.

I'll let Kil2 speak for himself (although I have no problem stating that I think the opinion of a skilled pilot on ship balancing matters is FAR superior to that of a player that has engaged in about 7 combat ops in as many years), but that aside I hate to tell you that small gang combat is alive and well in EvE... on a vast scale. RvB engagements, Faction warfare, Low Sec pirate organizations, Null sec roaming gangs, High Sec war decs... just about every where you look you see engagements with 5 to 50 people participating around the clock.

I have a great deal of respect for Rooks and Kings as an organization, but I think you have your blinders on, my friend.

Now as to the geddon being over powered, I've said all along that if the Geddon is anything it's borderline overpowered and may need to be toned down a bit... so we are in agreement on that score at least.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1646 - 2013-04-19 20:00:29 UTC
Regolis wrote:
Duality Test 1

Armageddon with max fitting skills works just fine in PVE with pulses (beams don't fit)
Requires 3 CCCs and 2 Cap chargers - IS NOT CAP STABLE with pulse lasers
With Cruise missiles cap stable with 2 large armor reps

Apocalypse was fine with pulses in PVE (beam won't fit with armor repper) Mega Beam IIs leave 500 grid
Requires 3 CCCs and 2 Cap chargers - IS NOT CAP STABLE with pulse lasers


Tested both these ships in Enemies Abound 3 and 4 of 5 (similar enemies)

The current settings on Duality don't have the laser changes. The way things currently are you have to be VERY aware of where you armor values are and when to cycle (IE Pay attention) other than that the ships themselves performed like they should.

I still wish I didn't have to give 1/4 of all ship fitting to the cap but there it is.


Thanks for posting that.

I was curious as to how it would do with the newly buffed Cruise missiles and Sentries, using active armor reps. You've confirmed that it's going to be a very viable option. (Maybe too viable.) Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#1647 - 2013-04-19 21:12:08 UTC
Regolis wrote:
Duality Test 1

Armageddon with max fitting skills works just fine in PVE with pulses (beams don't fit)
Requires 3 CCCs and 2 Cap chargers - IS NOT CAP STABLE with pulse lasers
With Cruise missiles cap stable with 2 large armor reps

Apocalypse was fine with pulses in PVE (beam won't fit with armor repper) Mega Beam IIs leave 500 grid
Requires 3 CCCs and 2 Cap chargers - IS NOT CAP STABLE with pulse lasers


Tested both these ships in Enemies Abound 3 and 4 of 5 (similar enemies)

The current settings on Duality don't have the laser changes. The way things currently are you have to be VERY aware of where you armor values are and when to cycle (IE Pay attention) other than that the ships themselves performed like they should.

I still wish I didn't have to give 1/4 of all ship fitting to the cap but there it is.



Good work. I have some specific questions:

Does your stability testing include dual or single reps? There's no reason for dual reps in any PVE, so I hope you can give results with singles.

How far off stable are they? A good PVE fitting right now isn't stable, but burns out in about 5 minutes. After that time, enough of the rats are dead that you can safely pulse the tank to feed the guns. )DPS tank = best tank). If you've got 3-5 minutes of cap, then that's actually very close to TQ and acceptable. If it's only 1-2 minutes, the Devs and I will have words. Although I'm sure the laser changes will help with the cap somewhat when they hit.

Overhaul Dscan!
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1648 - 2013-04-19 21:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Regolis
-14% stability on the Apoc .. -16% on the Armageddon with everything running

Tested Armageddon with (5) Mega Pulse 2s (scorch and conflag) and a Tech 2 armor repper (1)
Tested Armageddon with (5) Cruiser Missle and Tech 2 armor reppers (2)

Tested Apocalypse with (8) Mega Pulse 2s (scorch and conflag) and a tech 2 armor repper

I ran tests without deadspace or faction gear to use the worst possible fitting combos and lower resists to check the viability of the ships.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1649 - 2013-04-19 21:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
So does duality include the laser changes or not? Because it seems that unless all skills at rank V, it's an issue getting the Apoc runable for missions.

All skills level 5 with 5 slots devoted to regen does not bode well for pilots looking to start running level 4s as soon as possible.

EDIT: I see that it does not have the most recent iteration.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1650 - 2013-04-19 21:44:54 UTC
Shani Mukantagara wrote:
Kill2 is a small gang roamer, and his little to no experience of being in a fleet larger than 10... I am sad to say small gang roaming died years ago and this Geddon change proves the point that he is trying to bring back the small solo game play but unfortunately the game has moved on from that.

Not only is the 'new' Geddon a solo I win boat but it will also be a fleet 'I win ship' I bet no thought has gone into the 'new' Geddon on the large fleet side of things.

To make this 'new' Geddon balanced for fleet warfare it would need to have a considerably weaker tank otherwise you will see fleets just filled with these 'new' Geddons with its only weakness being if they forget to broadcast for capacitor.

Actually, no, the new geddons are not too powerful. I watched one go one on one against a blaster boat, both active tanked, geddon lost.

I then set up (despite my abysmal L Projectile and Cruise skills) a Pest with 6 800s, 2 cruise launchers, and an MJD. Due to me being able to ensure I stayed out of his "death bubble" range of 20-30km, killed him despite his active tank and me only being buffer tanked.

The Abaddon, however, is failing abysmally.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1651 - 2013-04-19 21:59:27 UTC
And is anyone testing out the Apoc for solo/small gang?
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1652 - 2013-04-19 22:29:57 UTC
I was one of 6 people on Duality when I did the PVE testing ... 4 of the people on were CCP / ISD so I figured I would test PVE since no one was actually there :p
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#1653 - 2013-04-20 05:17:12 UTC
was over to test a bit today, all PvE so far, with 4 different toons, so far I am underwhelmed... both ships perform worse for my lower skill toons than the pre-patch version due to how much fitting must be used for cap.

But with High skills ( T-II Drones/Missile/Guns etc..) they are kinda cool, not earth shattering making me excited and gunna love it, but ok.

Best mix so far was with a Missile/Drone pilot in the Gedden, both of the Turret heavy toons were having issues making it work well for them.

I'll be excited to see how they do once the Laser changes are in place.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1654 - 2013-04-20 08:20:03 UTC
Ok then - lets get a mini-mass test going, since we'll need to see how they fair in a PvP situation as well. ;


I can be on Duality this afternoon (16:00 EVE Time)

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1655 - 2013-04-20 12:58:53 UTC
well, we don't need to test the Abaddon, as we know it will do worse then before, the laser bandaid isn't on it yet so the only thing different for it is the loss of tank.

The geddon is a beast, but can definately be broken if you set yourself to either overpower it inside it's control zone or specifically remain outside of it.

The Apoc will do ok once the laser bandaid is on, atm it's abit underwhelming.

That's for PvP.
(side note, the new Navy Omen makes me feel funny in my pants :P )

As for PvE, I've never previously used any bS for it but the Abaddon, but with some forknowledge of how the rat AI works the 'Geddon performs adequately.

The Abaddon I refuse to try until the laser patch is done as I doubt it will have enough tank to hold up properly until it is easier to fit for cap issues.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1656 - 2013-04-20 13:51:01 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
well, we don't need to test the Abaddon, as we know it will do worse then before, the laser bandaid isn't on it yet so the only thing different for it is the loss of tank.

The geddon is a beast, but can definately be broken if you set yourself to either overpower it inside it's control zone or specifically remain outside of it.

The Apoc will do ok once the laser bandaid is on, atm it's abit underwhelming.

That's for PvP.
(side note, the new Navy Omen makes me feel funny in my pants :P )

As for PvE, I've never previously used any bS for it but the Abaddon, but with some forknowledge of how the rat AI works the 'Geddon performs adequately.

The Abaddon I refuse to try until the laser patch is done as I doubt it will have enough tank to hold up properly until it is easier to fit for cap issues.


Yeah, tried out the Geddon a bit myself, it is... acceptable. Idk, drones still grind my gears. They really feel like an unfinished feature.

Glad to hear that the laser bandaid isn't on though (I should have checked myself, to be honest), but otherwise I would liquidate my apocs on the live server tonight. It is quite awful. Just can't see using it for anything besides gatecamping now, although the tracking bonus is noticeable and useful, it doesn't compensate for it's fitting and cap problems now.

Didn't mess with the Abaddon, still don't plan on it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1657 - 2013-04-20 14:43:49 UTC
I forgot to post my character info ...
Max fitting skills ...
Max Cap skill...
Squire implant for 5% max cap
Squire implant for 5% cap regen

Remember I was also using 3 CCCs and 2 Cap recharger IIs on both ships for PVE and still was yards from cap stable

I don't know .. still seems like one heck of alot of cap and cap regen...
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1658 - 2013-04-20 15:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Arline Kley
Ok, i'm in Duality now - if you want in, just join the "Amarr Test" channel.


Oh, and when do we actually get to hear CCP Rise's replies to our questions again? its been 33 pages since his last peerage into this thread.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Loki Vice
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1659 - 2013-04-20 16:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Loki Vice
Day 8... or is it 9, my mind is starting to wane... Tempers flare, it has become obvious CCP kil2 has given up hope and has opted to bring solo back by ruining and entire class of ships...
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1660 - 2013-04-20 21:52:59 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

The Armageddon looks like it will be able to be fit to be relatively nimble if you are going to use it (as will often be the case) for small to medium sized gang work... for a BS hull. That being said, since it lacks the speed of the Curse it will actually benefit from the range bonus MORE than the Curse does, and be far more survivable when doing it. Let's face it, the Curse is a great ship but it tends to die very quickly once attention is turned to it. The Geddon will be much more survivable in a knock down, drag out brawl situation... and much, much more likely to be used for any form of solo play as well.

The Geddon will be deadly in close range encounters, effective at mid range encounters with excellent anti tackler capability, and can be made moderately effective at longer ranges (still with great anti tackle capability).

The only way that NOS/Nuet bonus will go is if it's deemed TOO effective on this hull.


First of all is neut not nuet. Thats like 100 time you made that typo.
Second still saying its "reasonably fast" is ********, its one of the slowest battleships. Even for a battleship hull it is slow. Slap an armor tank on that and its a brick. Just drop that argument.
Saying that it great as anti tackle is also funny, considering the base range on neut is already greater than the range of point, so it will matter only in extremely unlikely circumstances like draining a tackle that is holding your fleet mate more than 30km away from you. And even that is a dumb example since in any other ship you could just kill the tackle at that range. And the comment on how the range bonus is actually better on Armageddon than on Curse is flawed. And i cant be bored to try to explain it to you.

Anyway, best of luck to you while you try to solo in this "reasonably fast" battleship. Since "reasonably fast and agile" is enough to solo in. Its a real mystery why so few (no one) fly solo in Amarr battleships.