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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

First post First post
Author
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#581 - 2013-04-19 13:08:45 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:

EDIT: CCP Peligro addresses concerns regarding CCPs current policy on cache scraping:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2900665#post2900665


Sweet Jesus you guys are asking questions, and I am not going to say a Frekkin thing...

Yea, that looks like he has "addressed" it in full CCP style....

Terminator 2
Omega Boost
#582 - 2013-04-19 13:09:19 UTC
I'd like to have clarification from CCP on the following grey area:

Suppose that i have RSI on my mousehand and experience a disadvantage compared to unimpaired players.

Now i use the onboard windows tools for disabled people to put doubleclick on a keyboard key.

Have i used forbidden automatisation to gain an advantage over other people?

Will CCP detect this incorrectly and ban me due to a supposed automatisation tool which is a windows onboard functionality?
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#583 - 2013-04-19 13:17:33 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:

Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.


To remove RMT all you need to do is remove the Market, player isk transfers, and isk generated through player interactions, and asset transfers from char to char.
If you want to focus on everything that causes RMT then it is having isk and assets, so you must remove isk and assets from the equasion.

You could rename the game too... WorldOfEve, or even have lots of games!
WorldOfEveShips, WorldOfDust, WorldOfEvePlanets.

If ccp would have given what they promised YEARS ago (A single universal market system) then market sites would be useless.
make orders buyable and sellable on a global level ingame and that would kill that type of cache scraping.

Natalia Abre-Kai
#584 - 2013-04-19 13:40:51 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:

make orders buyable and sellable on a global level ingame



Please never do this!
Anthar Thebess
#585 - 2013-04-19 13:42:02 UTC
Sorry - im reading this eula again , again, and again.

Quote:
Here’s what the EULA considers bad in 6.A:

2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


Isboxer, or any other multiboxing software.
Quote:
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.


Logitech G15
Quote:
"macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns"


Eve-Central & market uploading
Quote:
manipulate data in any way to acquire items


You say no?
Autopilot Warp to zero ( apart from client modification - for sure you can achieve this in different ways):
- Isboxer : 100 ships warp after you - so you gain unfair advantage over other players.
- Logitech G15 - (i don't have one) but from what other people say - you can program one to warp gate to gate - so macros
- etc , etc.

For me - any multiboxing / scriptable ( object or software) falls under this point.
celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#586 - 2013-04-19 13:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: celebro
NVM
Tiberius Murderhorne
CONTRATTO
#587 - 2013-04-19 13:46:02 UTC
most good gaming keyboards on the market have programmable hot keys??

is your software looking for these too?? I have a G19 and a G700 mouse, I dont use macros but i do have keyboard keys mapped to mouse buttons, am I now breaking the EULA???

I cannot believe you skipped past the CSM on this one.....

Disclaimer : My posting does not always reflect my Corps views or my allience views.... Infact sometimes it does not even reflect my views!

Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#588 - 2013-04-19 13:57:16 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
In case of multiboxing CCP is in very bad position.

Why? Let's say there is a single IP address running nine(!) clients. A human multiboxer (like myself) can only interact with one client at a time, while a software-assisted multiboxer (and let's just go ahead and use ISBoxer as an example) can issue commands to multiple clients simultaneously. I should think that would be incredibly easy for CCP to detect. Even in the case of three roomies each running three clients, CCP should be able to detect (via MAC addresses, hardware signatures, or some other gadget) that if three mouse clicks came in during the same game "tick," that they came from three different physical machines. Further, the odds of three separate machines running three clients each, having coordinated clicking is so close to nil that CCP could again say "Yeah, these are different people playing behind NAT, not one person botting."
Anthar Thebess
#589 - 2013-04-19 13:59:01 UTC
Tiberius Murderhorne wrote:
most good gaming keyboards on the market have programmable hot keys??

is your software looking for these too?? I have a G19 and a G700 mouse, I dont use macros but i do have keyboard keys mapped to mouse buttons, am I now breaking the EULA???

I cannot believe you skipped past the CSM on this one.....


Apparently you are braking EULA.
Because you do something - that others - cannot - you use a repetable macro
I don't say this is good/bad - simply brakes EULA.

"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play "
Anthar Thebess
#590 - 2013-04-19 14:06:12 UTC
Atum wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
In case of multiboxing CCP is in very bad position.

Why? Let's say there is a single IP address running nine(!) clients. A human multiboxer (like myself) can only interact with one client at a time, while a software-assisted multiboxer (and let's just go ahead and use ISBoxer as an example) can issue commands to multiple clients simultaneously. I should think that would be incredibly easy for CCP to detect. Even in the case of three roomies each running three clients, CCP should be able to detect (via MAC addresses, hardware signatures, or some other gadget) that if three mouse clicks came in during the same game "tick," that they came from three different physical machines. Further, the odds of three separate machines running three clients each, having coordinated clicking is so close to nil that CCP could again say "Yeah, these are different people playing behind NAT, not one person botting."



CCP have eve for making money - not for fun.
Without ability to use multiboxing software - many people will discontinue some of the accounts - and this means less income for CCP.

Good example?
While i was flying my raiden char in higsec i noticed something strange on local.
The same nic 74! times the only different was numbers at the end of the nick.
I warped belt by belt and finally found this guy ( yep it was one - i was talking with him on local ).
70 coventors on one belt + orca and freighters moving belt <> station.

Simply i don't see any other possibility than semi-Boting/ Multiboxing to maintain this kind of operation.

70x19.95= 1396.5 $ less/month if this guy decide to discontinue most of his accounts.
Thats why :
Atum wrote:
[quote=Anthar Thebess]In case of multiboxing CCP is in very bad position.

Terminator 2
Omega Boost
#591 - 2013-04-19 14:08:28 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Tiberius Murderhorne wrote:
most good gaming keyboards on the market have programmable hot keys??

is your software looking for these too?? I have a G19 and a G700 mouse, I dont use macros but i do have keyboard keys mapped to mouse buttons, am I now breaking the EULA???

I cannot believe you skipped past the CSM on this one.....


Apparently you are braking EULA.
Because you do something - that others - cannot - you use a repetable macro
I don't say this is good/bad - simply brakes EULA.

"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play "


That is the problem exactly what i have written a few posts above.

EVERYONE CAN DO THIS. IT IS BUILT INTO EVERY WINDOWS SYSTEM. RAPID MOUSECLICKS, DOUBLECLICKS AND SO ON ARE STANDARD WINDOWS FEATURES FOR IMPAIRED PEOPLE.

I want clarification from CCP on this one, as it is stupid if you get the hammer for using windows.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#592 - 2013-04-19 14:10:15 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Simply i don't see any other possibility than semi-Boting/ Multiboxing to maintain this kind of operation.

70x19.95= 1396.5 $ less/month if this guy decide to discontinue most of his accounts.

I see two things....
1. A perfect target for kill mails
2. A way to make human-driven (as opposed to bot-subsidized) industry at least a little more viable

YARRR!!! Pirate
Bob Bedala
#593 - 2013-04-19 14:21:46 UTC
Two things;

1) This thread highlights again the need for an issue tracker to better structure clarifications/amends from CCP, rather than threadageddon.

Because who would reasonably wade through 30 pages to ask:

2) EULA "6.A.2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."

Does this cover use of the "eve://" (IIRC) javascript psuedo-protocol to sort-of-enable EVE functionality in the in-game browser?

Nice uses of this might be e.g. Somer blink.
Nasty uses of this might be that dude who got banned for creating a page on a local server to somehow speed up his market operations.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#594 - 2013-04-19 14:22:49 UTC
Well, since multi boxing isn't something they are concerned with, even with assistance like ISBoxer, this is a moot point.

Now if you used ISBoxer in conjunction with other tools to completely automate those accounts to not require a users input for each action, then you are in danger of being banned.

Just like with keyboard macros'. A keyboard macro that duplicates one keystroke you physically make across other keys (say to activate all of your mid slot items with a single keystroke) is not something they consider a cheat and would ban you for. However, if you have a very advanced macro set up that allows the client to play without user interaction you will be banned if caught.

They have deemed certain items to be against the letter of the EULA and TOS and potentially bannable, this allows them flexibility when needed to deal with new software and variations on that software. However they have specified that if you aren't using it to Bot, perform RMT, or hack/modify the client they excercise their right to NOT ban you.

Your entire post above completely ignores this fact, which was actually the main point addressed in the Dev blog... but people continue to panic and apply worst case what if scenario's while completely ingnoring the actual relevant part of the blog.

The rest of us are just going to wait until the hysteria passes. Once the light of reason returns to peoples eyes, and they stop hyperventilating, perhaps some worthwhile discussions will happen.

Until then, well, it's been highly amusing. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Anthar Thebess
#595 - 2013-04-19 14:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Terminator 2 wrote:
...


Exactly what i mean.
You can do this in a 100 ways.
Most of the people already have the possibility in the system/ some interface.
HOW ccp will be able to detect that this is a bot / macro ?

In my Ultima years ( years ago ) i was newer detected , how?
I always did three things:
1. RANDOM time for each click ( simple function returning random wait time )
2. RANDOM click place ( i simply defined a square in which this click should occur)
3. Apply some random , actions from a wide list.

And im just a home made programmer - and we are talking about something that i did years ago.

I think CCP should think first how to minimize the botting from the game side.
1.Some simple automations - that will discourage people from using some modifications.
2.Give ability to obtain some info ( for example market info ) by api.
3. Add RANDOM element that will make using bots hard as hell.

As RANDOM element is a thing that will be hard to code in.
Mission bots?
- random the mission spawns in random places with random behaviour.
- force players to make some decisions during the missions

Ratting bots?
- random scrambling frigates ... with scrambling range/orbit grater from a smart bomb range. ( carrier bots will love this)
- escalated spawns! - now people know how much tank they need to simply warp belt to belt - add a possibility for a gigantic spawn - and many botting ships will die - they will simply don't warp away until is to late.
- AI
HBC- Recruiter
Doomheim
#596 - 2013-04-19 14:43:59 UTC
I have a question with regards to "modification".

Banal as it may seem, I have long desired to pilot my ship with a joy stick or game pad. Now hacking the client is out of the question (and honestly beyond my capability anyway).

But suppose I wrote a driver for my game pad to control the mouse cursor, and mapped a button to generate a click where ever the cursor was on my screen. As far as eve knows I used my mouse cursor as normal to alter my course. But I controlled my mouse with something other than...well, a mouse.

Would this be considered a type of macro that would warrant a ban?

What if I made a driver for my controller that let one of the pressure sensing triggers control the ships throttle by dragging the mouse cursor and clicking?

I couldn't use the mouse to steer and use it to change speed at the same time, any more than I could with a regular mouse there is only one mouse cursor so it shouldn't give any unfair advantage?
Lecian
State War Academy
Caldari State
#597 - 2013-04-19 15:16:33 UTC
CCP +1 here for thinking you have lost your mind.

Did you ship all the intelligence to WOD or Dust again? From the outside looking in it looks like kids are making decisions again.

Every MMO uses 3rd party tools and most MMOs are clear on legality. Never heard of anyone shooting them self in the foot banning something that's used by half the player base. While I don't expect to get banned for it You certainly did a ****** job of addressing your player base
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#598 - 2013-04-19 15:18:41 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.

After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.



Translation: We paid lawyers to tell us that they'd rather not work on the EULA to tighten it up. We'll continue to pay them to not adjust the EULA for the foreseeable future, in the hopes that "just trust us" mollifies most of the playerbase. Someday, we may make them work for their money and actually tighten up the EULA.

I am not an alt of Chribba.

YoYoMommy
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#599 - 2013-04-19 15:22:47 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.



If this is not what you are looking for and is not cheating then why are you saying its illegal but not to worry? Makes more since to say that cache scraping for cheating is not legal rather than a blanket statement that everyone who uses it can get banned whether it's cheating or not, but if you are not cheating with it you might not get banned.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#600 - 2013-04-19 15:23:34 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
I genuinely do not know how to be any clearer than this: We will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.

I do apologize, though! I'm well aware that the original wording was not well received, and did not appropriately relay our intent.

Perhaps I can help you here. (I haven't read all 600+ posts in this thread, so apologies in advance if this deceased equine has already received its due beating.) Below is a restating of my perception of CCP's stance:
Quote:
We don't like cache scraping. It's inelegant. It treads uncomfortably close to the prohibition on reverse assembling the client. The cache is intended for the client's use and fear there may come a point where information in the cache which isn't presented to the user (via the client) can be used to gain advantages we didn't intend. Therefore we (and the lawyers) put wording in the EULA prohibiting cache scraping.

That said, at the moment we aren't going to punish users for scraping the cache. We recognize that there are some third party tools that make good use of the cache, and have no intention of punishing users of those third party tools. However we will continue to go after users which engage in other EULA-breaking activities, such as botting. Cache scraping activities by themselves will not be a reason for us to take action.


Hopefully you can use my example above to guide future clarifications.

MDD