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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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Anthar Thebess
#561 - 2013-04-19 11:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
In case of multiboxing CCP is in very bad position.
As a company ( main purpose is to generate income ) it is hard to make something that will lead large group of people to discontinue some of the accounts.

I think CCP should ask them self 2 questions.
Why and what kind of things people are using in eve.
Officialy ban some things ( things like - autopilot warp to 0) ... and other build in into a game (i don't know - maybe something like " mine this asteroid - to my cargo " option for a orca fleet commander )
For me mining , is not so much important - and if this generate more income (from new accounts) i have no objections.
Im vote "yes" for all build in automations not connected to the "engagement" with other players/rats.
Bloody Wench
#562 - 2013-04-19 11:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloody Wench
CCP Peligro wrote:
Ereilian wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ereilian wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:



Ha! I wish... On a more serious note, this operation is around 2 months in the making, and the total number of accounts involved in this one (2350) is a small fraction of the number of accounts we have banned in the past year.

We are presenting a bunch of numbers and graphs at fanfest, this will be recorded. I'll put them up in a dev blog afterwards as well.


2 months for 0.005% of the player base ... time well spent?

Comparing accounts banned to the amount of the active subscriptions is kind of useless, don't you think?


With the amount of backslapping going on, its a pretty fair assesment of the time invested compared to the results. Especially when the resources used by Team Security could be redeployed into making the game better.


I did not say anything about the time invested at all. I said that this particular operation started as an idea two months ago, and was finished today. You are of course free to make assumptions.

As for Team Security, we make the game better by dealing with cheaters and botters. This is actually my main concern; the general well being of the game, and the ability for the players to enjoy our product. Nobody wants to play a game where cheating is rampant.



Warp to 0 AP is not a game breaking hack / exploit.
It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players. With the exception of suiciders and gate camps, and clearly improves gameplay for over 2000 users.
I realise at this point I sound like I'm in favour of it, and possibly I am, however my personal stance is irrelevant.

Ratting bots, mission running bots, courier bots, market bots and mining bots....these things adversely impact my game play.

Someone getting 30 jumps 15 minutes quicker I don't give a ****.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack

virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#563 - 2013-04-19 11:47:33 UTC
To answer your question directly multiboxing is OK when it does not break the ELUA.
Does the software you want to use to multibox break the ELUA?
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#564 - 2013-04-19 11:51:46 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
How can CCP give a definative answer on something like multiboxing when the software tools used to multibox are outside of their control?

If CCP looks at ISBoxer ( just as an example ) and comes to the conclusion that it's OK - Then they say "Yes it's OK to use ISBoxer"
What happens when the day after CCP said it's Ok ,the ISBoxer devs update the software and add a feature that CCP are very much against?
CCP just said it was OK to use it, but now it does different things to when CCP reviewed it.
CCP can't ban people for using something they said was OK to use. But it now breaks the rules, ELUA, spirit of the rules in a way that is definitely cheating. CCP are now stuck.


CCP deals with this by problem defining as best they can what is cheating.
They then say you can't use software that falls into their definition of cheating.
ITS UP TO YOU TO DECIDE IF THE SOFTWARE YOU WANT TO USE MEETS THIS DEFINITION OF CHEATING OR NOT.
If you are unsure then the simplest way to avoid problems is not to use the software.
It's not up to CCP to YES/NO every bit of software that they have no control over.


In that case it's up to CCP to contact the developer of the software, and tell him what extend he's allowed to go and what he's not, there's alot of gray areas currently. Gray areas are not good.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 

Anthar Thebess
#565 - 2013-04-19 11:52:47 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:

Someone getting 30 jumps 15 minutes quicker I don't give a ****.


For pvp perspective - it does - also in higsec.
And from my perspective 1 person commanding ( from build in interface 30 miners in fleet what to mine) is also thing that i
Bloody Wench wrote:
I don't give a ****.
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#566 - 2013-04-19 11:53:46 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:


Warp to 0 AP is not a game breaking hack / exploit.
It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players. With the exception of suiciders and gate camps, and clearly improves gameplay for over 2000 users.
I realise at this point I sound like I'm in favour of it, and possibly I am, however my personal stance is irrelevant.

Ratting bots, mission running bots, courier bots, market bots and mining bots....these things adversely impact my game play.

Someone getting 30 jumps 15 minutes quicker I don't give a ****.


That's purely opinion, and it's wrong.
It is an exploit as decided by CCP and the ELUA. The bans are proof that CCP consider it an exploit.
That it negatively impacts a single player is enough. That fact you want to be able to do it is irrelevant.
It provides imbalance. Piracy is a valid deliberate play style in Eve - auto to zero interferes with that game play style in a matter that the game manufacturer considers serious enough to ban people for.
You can petition CCP to change their stance on this as is your right - but right now it is a bannable exploit.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#567 - 2013-04-19 11:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: culo duro
virm pasuul wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:


Warp to 0 AP is not a game breaking hack / exploit.
It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players. With the exception of suiciders and gate camps, and clearly improves gameplay for over 2000 users.
I realise at this point I sound like I'm in favour of it, and possibly I am, however my personal stance is irrelevant.

Ratting bots, mission running bots, courier bots, market bots and mining bots....these things adversely impact my game play.

Someone getting 30 jumps 15 minutes quicker I don't give a ****.


That's purely opinion, and it's wrong.
It is an exploit as decided by CCP and the ELUA. The bans are proof that CCP consider it an exploit.
That it negatively impacts a single player is enough. That fact you want to be able to do it is irrelevant.
It provides imbalance. Piracy is a valid deliberate play style in Eve - auto to zero interferes with that game play style in a matter that the game manufacturer considers serious enough to ban people for.
You can petition CCP to change their stance on this as is your right - but right now it is a bannable exploit.


The reason Warp to Zero is banned is because you modify the client, not because of how it impacts the game, that's only a small part of it, if any.

Edit: An Opinion can't be wrong that's why it's called an opinion not an answer.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 

Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#568 - 2013-04-19 11:57:29 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
This thread needs to be closed.
It's a clusterf*****k of self inflicted fear uncertainty doubt and what must be deliberate mis interpretation and wilful lack of understanding. It servers no purpose other than to increase tinfoil hat sales - I suspect the goons, don't they own the tinfoil moons?

CCP have made themselves clear.
If you are capable of understanding the CCP message then continue cache scraping for purposes not against the spirit of the ELUA.

If you are all in a woeful tizzy maelstorm of sky falling down, and quitting eve. Then just uninstall whatever 3dd party software you are using, and get yerself off down to see the nurse for some meds before a nice peaceful nap. Amd stop worrying.

I swear some people get off on worrying - and board lawyering mixed with a supersized dose of lack of comprehension .


Except it took 16 pages to get to the point that CCP said that, and prior to that involved several third party developers who were scratching their heads at what CCP stated on page 1.
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#569 - 2013-04-19 11:58:11 UTC
culo duro wrote:


In that case it's up to CCP to contact the developer of the software, and tell him what extend he's allowed to go and what he's not, there's alot of gray areas currently. Gray areas are not good.


Nope absolutely not.
It's up to you to abide by the Eve ELUA - it's that simple. Abide or be banned.

What you propose is a practical impossibility for soooo sooo many reasons I couldn't list them all here.
Basically it all boils down to CCP has no control over 3rd party developers.
e.g. anonymously written software, how could CCP possibly control that? Pure fantasy.

As a player of Eve you must abide by the ELUA of face the consequences, it's that simple.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#570 - 2013-04-19 12:00:07 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
culo duro wrote:


In that case it's up to CCP to contact the developer of the software, and tell him what extend he's allowed to go and what he's not, there's alot of gray areas currently. Gray areas are not good.


Nope absolutely not.
It's up to you to abide by the Eve ELUA - it's that simple. Abide or be banned.

What you propose is a practical impossibility for soooo sooo many reasons I couldn't list them all here.
Basically it all boils down to CCP has no control over 3rd party developers.
e.g. anonymously written software, how could CCP possibly control that? Pure fantasy.

As a player of Eve you must abide by the ELUA of face the consequences, it's that simple.


You didn't watch the last stream did you? CCP Works along with thirdparty developers to improve their game.
Please go somewhere else unless you got something constructive to say.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 

Anthar Thebess
#571 - 2013-04-19 12:00:10 UTC
CCP prepare a topic:
- automation wish-list in eve.

Take 20 things people are requesting most often.

Create a voting on each ( people can say YES/NO)

And after this decide what things have to be changed in eve.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#572 - 2013-04-19 12:02:54 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP prepare a topic:
- automation wish-list in eve.

Take 20 things people are requesting most often.

Create a voting on each ( people can say YES/NO)

And after this decide what things have to be changed in eve.


There's never going to be allowed Automation in eve, there have to be a player doing it.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 

virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#573 - 2013-04-19 12:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: virm pasuul
culo duro wrote:


You didn't watch the last stream did you? CCP Works along with thirdparty developers to improve their game.
Please go somewhere else unless you got something constructive to say.



And the 3rd party devs who don't work with CCP or abide by CCP rules?
It's not the ones who play fair that are the problem. Soime 3rd party tools - the botting software for exaple is clearly against CCP rules - those devs are hardly cooperating with CCP are they?
CCP cannot control all 3rd party external software developers. That's a fact.

and it's not for you to decide who does and doesn't post here thank you - it's not my fault you are trying to build a straw man out of thin air
Anthar Thebess
#574 - 2013-04-19 12:12:27 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP prepare a topic:
- automation wish-list in eve.

Take 20 things people are requesting most often.

Create a voting on each ( people can say YES/NO)

And after this decide what things have to be changed in eve.


There's never going to be allowed Automation in eve, there have to be a player doing it.


Only what type of automation we are talking about?
Im talking abut of automation level already present in eve.
For example auto reloading weapons - this is automation level that im thinking about.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2013-04-19 12:13:31 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
culo duro wrote:


You didn't watch the last stream did you? CCP Works along with thirdparty developers to improve their game.
Please go somewhere else unless you got something constructive to say.



And the 3rd party devs who don't work with CCP or abide by CCP rules?
It's not the ones who play fair that are the problem. Soime 3rd party tools - the botting software for exaple is clearly against CCP rules - those devs are hardly cooperating with CCP are they?
CCP cannot control all 3rd party external software developers. That's a fact.

and it's not for you to decide who does and doesn't post here thank you - it's not my fault you are trying to build a straw man out of thin air


This is completely regarding the Thirdparty software which is borderline crossing the EULA, not the Thirdparty apps which have clearly crossed that line...

Bots are automated which is clearly against the EULA, however CCP is saying stuff like Macros is disallowed... Macros in itself is a huge word.

It can be me pressing Numpad1 on my keyboard broadcasting to 1 other client, or it can be me broadcasting to 27 other clients. That's what we need a stance on.

However you chose to come here to the forum and use internet logic: "You don't have the same opinion as me therefore you're wrong." That's not how opinions work.

If CCP wanted to communicate with a guy like Joe that's masking ISBoxer, they could easily do so. I've spoken to Joe and according to him his software doesn't break the EULA, but as he told me, it depends on how CCP looks at it.
CCP left a huge gray area, which they need to close. That's what people are talking about.... Silly NPC Alt.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 

Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#576 - 2013-04-19 12:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
As I've explained to the incursion community I'm a senior FC for, in the long run, CCP doesn't need the EULA to ban anyone. Hell, as has been pointed out, in some countries you could print the EULA out and use it for toilet paper for all the validity it has. In the long run, the EULA and the TOS are simply there for a convenient excuse for CCP to point to when they do ban someone, for the inevitable QQ that will follow, they can simply point to it and say "That's why, now go away."

In short, don't go doing anything drastic in regards to the game unless your already doing something they have made abundantly clear they are head hunting for to ban people over. And if you are doing so, you should stop doing so, as they will catch you when they figure out how to detect it, it's just a matter of time and coding, after all. And at that point, you only have yourself to blame for the ban.

Now, I'm done with this thread. Those of you who are intelligent and friendly, (and enjoy my posting style or whatever) feel free to follow my continueing forum posts, atm I am primarily focused on the Amarr BS, L Laser, and Resist Nerf threads, but I keep an eye out for other dev posts in case it's anything I want to know about changes to our beloved game :) .
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#577 - 2013-04-19 12:17:30 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP prepare a topic:
- automation wish-list in eve.

Take 20 things people are requesting most often.

Create a voting on each ( people can say YES/NO)

And after this decide what things have to be changed in eve.


There's never going to be allowed Automation in eve, there have to be a player doing it.


Only what type of automation we are talking about?
Im talking abut of automation level already present in eve.
For example auto reloading weapons - this is automation level that im thinking about.


Stuff which this thread is about.
When you're reloading your guns automatically you're probably present, which doesn't break the EULA. If you do Automation like Botting or that's what CCP seems to be after, but it definently needs to be presented.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 

Evora Chili
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#578 - 2013-04-19 12:54:52 UTC
Maybe it's just a language barrier, but there are a few questions that are still not answered.
I know that CCP is primarily aiming against botters and that I won't get a statement on specific multiboxing tools, but it would be really nice to actually get a GM response on the following questions:

1. are tools that repeat / broadcast mouse-movement and keyboard strokes from one client (that's controlled by a human) to multiple clients, bannable?
2. some tools can be set up to use video overlays that can show information from other clients (shield/armor/hull HUD, weapons, overview, etc) on your main monitor. is that allowed? it doesn't change any game files afaik
3. what about a launcher that starts multiple clients?
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#579 - 2013-04-19 12:56:41 UTC
raylu D wrote:
Now that we're on page 20, is it a good time to point out that cache scraping is completely undetectable? At best, you can try to check access time but you're somewhat hosed when dealing with multiple EVE clients, hour delays (but hey, CCP's API just does the same thing but much worse), and the fact that it can be trivially spoofed with SetFileTime.

To reiterate: there is no way to tell when something else is reading a file. What is the point of this rule?



http://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/sysinternals/bb896653.aspx

If they want to keep the cache files from being read, they need to come up with a secure encryption system, generally speaking however, they can (if they so desire) likely see what program is viewing the files. With little effort you could hide it, but it is still possible.
Bloody Wench
#580 - 2013-04-19 13:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloody Wench
Anthar Thebess wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP prepare a topic:
- automation wish-list in eve.

Take 20 things people are requesting most often.

Create a voting on each ( people can say YES/NO)

And after this decide what things have to be changed in eve.


There's never going to be allowed Automation in eve, there have to be a player doing it.


Only what type of automation we are talking about?
Im talking abut of automation level already present in eve.
For example auto reloading weapons - this is automation level that im thinking about.



There's a fundamental difference between a macro and 'automation'.
A macro might press a key or execute a series of user input at some interval and do it forever (or however long you tell it). for loops as an example
But the moment you introduce if else statements or other types of logic that will respond to changing input it becomes a bot.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack