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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#341 - 2013-04-18 18:17:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Remeber the EVE-Uni market bot that got someone banned a while back? People tried to defend that on the grounds that it was “only cache scraping”.

This change puts a solid slug through both knees of that argument.


Except it was market bot. "Only cache scraping" was a dumb argument then, it remains a dumb argument now. Market bots should be banned and the cache scraping side is irrelevant.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#342 - 2013-04-18 18:17:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Remeber the EVE-Uni market bot that got someone banned a while back? People tried to defend that on the grounds that it was “only cache scraping”.

This change puts a solid slug through both knees of that argument.


Right, and it was a terrible defense because the character's actual input commands were clearly being automated, which was the bannable part. That's the point, even though cache scraping certainly could be used to assist a botter in whatever they're doing, it's the botting part of what they do that's bannable.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Ereilian
Doomheim
#343 - 2013-04-18 18:17:59 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Artctura wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.

After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.



Can we *ALSO* get this from CCP Stillman? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd really prefer it to come from the person in charge of the people with the ban button.


Stillman is not in charge of the people with the ban button, he is CCPs Security Analyst.
Our boss is GM Solomon, VP of Customer Relationship Management.

The word comes from Team Security as well as CCPs Legal department. It is official and you can quote me on it! Big smile


Put it in the TOS and then we will quote you on it.
Aaden Dante
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#344 - 2013-04-18 18:18:30 UTC
Prices are going up in high, prices are falling in low and null and off-path high. These tools are integral for moving goods out of null/low into high and ISK from high into null/low.

Making the eve-central, eve-marketdata market update tools + evemon illegal means that L/S, N/S traders will now have to sit there for 12 hours clicking through the regions items looking for deals. Maybe it's illegal but not enforced to click through with Evemon to update those sites, but certainly not with a market update website.

So, L/S and N/S traders are going to spend a lot more time buying your trash, supplying your stations or pretty much anything else that you might rely on them for.

Time is ISK, the buys will go down in LS because less people will buy the deals, or even update the market sites with your regions deals. Less trash going into Jita means less T2 manufacture and higher prices for what will get there. Less manufacturing in high means Null will once again be complaining.

But yeah, kill those RMT's.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#345 - 2013-04-18 18:19:21 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Roime wrote:
No, they have already stated that they won't do that. If you are worried, turn the feature off.

Anyway, Goon whine is obviously not about Evemon.



Wow you're right it must be about all the sinister bots we use to keep the rest of the population of New Eden down.


Why are you so worried then about your program?

If it's harmless, then it is. Just like before.




Counter-point: if it was harmful, they can ban me for it. JUST LIKE BEFORE.

I have no idea why it was necessary for them to come out and say "any cache scraping is a bannable offense" when they could easily address botting without publishing a devblog announcing that scraping is bannable.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#346 - 2013-04-18 18:20:36 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Yep, thanks, we are working on that. I just edited the OP, and the dev blog will be updated shortly.


Thank you sir, I can live with this solution.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#347 - 2013-04-18 18:21:24 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Remeber the EVE-Uni market bot that got someone banned a while back? People tried to defend that on the grounds that it was “only cache scraping”.

This change puts a solid slug through both knees of that argument.


Right, and it was a terrible defense because the character's actual input commands were clearly being automated, which was the bannable part. That's the point, even though cache scraping certainly could be used to assist a botter in whatever they're doing, it's the botting part of what they do that's bannable.

I think the cache scraping angle is just the root that can be grabbed onto, if you take my meaning.

There are an infinite number of ways and software variations that can be created to make illegitimate use of that information (and tracking/documenting all of those ways would be literally a never ending process), however they all share cache scraping in common. It's the common handle that CCP can use (if needed) to get a grip on to deal with all of them.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#348 - 2013-04-18 18:22:28 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:


Stillman is not in charge of the people with the ban button, he is CCPs Security Analyst.
Our boss is GM Solomon, VP of Customer Relationship Management.

The word comes from Team Security as well as CCPs Legal department. It is official and you can quote me on it! Big smile


Thank you.

Artctura for CSM 2013
yogizh
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2013-04-18 18:23:41 UTC
Don't feed the lawyers. Cool
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#350 - 2013-04-18 18:23:50 UTC
Fishsticks Fred wrote:
Where's the CSM on this?


I posted a reply on page 3, which I can't link for some reason right now because of these stupid forums

I was a little late posting because I was busy talking to CCP about this terrible plan

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2013-04-18 18:26:29 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Stillman is not in charge of the people with the ban button, he is CCPs Security Analyst.
Our boss is GM Solomon, VP of Customer Relationship Management.

The word comes from Team Security as well as CCPs Legal department. It is official and you can quote me on it! Big smile

So out of curiosity, considering the things listed are all illegal activities in their own right, where does cache scraping come into it?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#352 - 2013-04-18 18:26:41 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


Counter-point: if it was harmful, they can ban me for it. JUST LIKE BEFORE.

I have no idea why it was necessary for them to come out and say "any cache scraping is a bannable offense" when they could easily address botting without publishing a devblog announcing that scraping is bannable.


I think you missed the part of the EULA considering cache scraping, which hasn't changed with this announcement. It's always been bannable.

.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#353 - 2013-04-18 18:26:42 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
That defense was wrong though, because CCP was quite confident that he also used a bot to manipulate orders. So cache-scraping wasn't the issue here. Thus, they should not make it an issue.
Sure, and this enforcement policy simple means that, had they been right, the argument would still have been invalid.

Cache-scraping was an issue, which was compounded by how that scraping was used to the point where they couldn't overlook it. Exactly what the new policy clarifies. They're still not going to care if you just scrape the cache, just like back then. You're still going to have to do something bad with the data, just like back then. This simply explains why this is the case.
Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#354 - 2013-04-18 18:27:21 UTC
Two step wrote:
Fishsticks Fred wrote:
Where's the CSM on this?


I posted a reply on page 3, which I can't link for some reason right now because of these stupid forums

I was a little late posting because I was busy talking to CCP about this terrible plan


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899575#post2899575

Artctura for CSM 2013
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-04-18 18:27:59 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Remeber the EVE-Uni market bot that got someone banned a while back? People tried to defend that on the grounds that it was “only cache scraping”.

This change puts a solid slug through both knees of that argument.


Right, and it was a terrible defense because the character's actual input commands were clearly being automated, which was the bannable part. That's the point, even though cache scraping certainly could be used to assist a botter in whatever they're doing, it's the botting part of what they do that's bannable.

I think the cache scraping angle is just the root that can be grabbed onto, if you take my meaning.

There are an infinite number of ways and software variations that can be created to make illegitimate use of that information (and tracking/documenting all of those ways would be literally a never ending process), however they all share cache scraping in common. It's the common handle that CCP can use (if needed) to get a grip on to deal with all of them.


People have brains.

Brains can be used to concoct and enact terrorist plots.

All people with brains should be considered in violation of anti-terror laws.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#356 - 2013-04-18 18:28:50 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:


Counter-point: if it was harmful, they can ban me for it. JUST LIKE BEFORE.

I have no idea why it was necessary for them to come out and say "any cache scraping is a bannable offense" when they could easily address botting without publishing a devblog announcing that scraping is bannable.


I think you missed the part of the EULA considering cache scraping, which hasn't changed with this announcement. It's always been bannable.




http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#357 - 2013-04-18 18:29:22 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Artctura wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.

After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.



Can we *ALSO* get this from CCP Stillman? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd really prefer it to come from the person in charge of the people with the ban button.


Stillman is not in charge of the people with the ban button, he is CCPs Security Analyst.
Our boss is GM Solomon, VP of Customer Relationship Management.

The word comes from Team Security as well as CCPs Legal department. It is official and you can quote me on it! Big smile


Then perhaps someone needs to have a talk with the security analysts and tell them that they don't decide what's a bannable offense. They have come on her quite a few times and stated that they decide what is bannable and that they are the only source of interpretation when it comes to what is a bannable offense.

Now that forum posts are no longer something that we can refer back to as a valid determination of what is allowable and what isn't, we want you to put it in the official documentation. Is it really too much to ask to modify the EULA and/or TOS to make cache scraping and the like explicitly allowed?

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Goonswarm Federation
#358 - 2013-04-18 18:30:13 UTC
Is ISBOXER illegal????? Or is it "of no concern"?
iskflakes
#359 - 2013-04-18 18:30:30 UTC
Two step wrote:
Fishsticks Fred wrote:
Where's the CSM on this?


I posted a reply on page 3, which I can't link for some reason right now because of these stupid forums

I was a little late posting because I was busy talking to CCP about this terrible plan


A CSM member with a brain?... interesting...

-
Ereilian
Doomheim
#360 - 2013-04-18 18:30:57 UTC
Two step wrote:
Fishsticks Fred wrote:
Where's the CSM on this?


I posted a reply on page 3, which I can't link for some reason right now because of these stupid forums

I was a little late posting because I was busy talking to CCP about this terrible plan


the current Lame Duck CSM was last seen waddling towards the door marked "No More Freebie Trips To Iceland". *snort* As if they have any influence over Security issues.