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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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Aurthes
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#221 - 2013-04-18 17:01:20 UTC
Muscaat wrote:
Aurthes wrote:
A question came to mind, and maybe I missed it due to the # of posts. Was this vetted through CSM 7? If so, was their opposition? If they weren't consulted, then why have a CSM? Is CSM 7 successful? I read the CSM rep who said he gave input after the decision was made.


Two Step has confirmed that the CSM were not told about this in advance:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899575#post2899575


Then does CCP value the CSM?
Elfaen Ethenwe
Effluvium.
#222 - 2013-04-18 17:01:32 UTC
Entity wrote:
[quote=Ranger 1]


Edit: this post editor sucks so bad for reverting to old drafts randomly.


You should make a 3rd party forum post app. Like tweetdeck for eve... You'll be banned for improving the service ofc, but it'd be nice to hear a little bird sing evey time CCP does something stupid. I hope it has big lungs.....
Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2013-04-18 17:01:49 UTC
pmchem wrote:
This 'cache scraping' stance is completely untenable. I am a third party dev. I help design / publish tools, such as http://goonmetrics.com, which players who don't want to lawyer-up the EULA will use. What am I supposed to say? "Hey guys, this is now officially against the EULA (where in the past it has generally been thought to be permitted by the EULA), but don't worry because it's just market data and not a botting program and there are a couple forum posts which say you'll be fine, honest. Oh but by the way if a GM wants to ban you nobody can help because it's against the EULA."

This is insanity.

CCP Stillman wrote:

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.


What you really need to do is to modify the EULA to be more specific. Have it actually mention things such as "cache scraping in conjunction with botting". If you make pretty much every evemon user -- nearly every player of the game -- a EULA violator, you're giving GMs or whoever carte blanche to ban as they please. "Hey this guy was cache scraping, and someone somewhere said he was botting. But we know he was cache scraping, off you go!"

Please, for the love of god and the sanity of devs who HELP PLAYERS ENJOY YOUR GAME and are TRYING TO DO RIGHT, fix it so extremely common, "CCP sanctioned" tools such as market data tools or evemon are not against the friggin' EULA.

Really, who comes up with this stuff? Would you stand for this if you were a third party dev? How can you have a policy that makes it so tens of thousands of players can arbitrarily be banned, then say "don't worry it's not a priority?" If you were an EVE player, would you want that Sword of Damocles hanging over your account?


This deserves the full attention of CCP, and deserves it now.

Artctura for CSM 2013
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#224 - 2013-04-18 17:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
CCP Stillman wrote:
But I also don't want the misconception that has been, admittedly as a result of a mistake on our end, believed to be allowed by the EULA.

You are wrong. The existing interpretation prior to this dev blog has been that it IS allowed. It is not a "misconception" it is you guys changing the rules. While this is within CCPs rights to do, let's not pretend that we have always been at war with eastasia.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#225 - 2013-04-18 17:03:30 UTC
Jitus Altus wrote:
Manssell wrote:
This is going to end up being like drinking at an outdoor street festival (in the US) and having a cop come over and tell the group that while we're technically breaking the law, as long as we do it responsibly, keep it in our red plastic cups, stay on the sidewalk, and don't cause too much commotion he'll look the other way. Then 20 technogeeks run up and start asking him so many damn stupid technical questions about what exactly he'll enforce, "can the cup be blue?", "what if I have one foot in the street?", "can I make a loud whoot?", "What about uncontrollable laughter, Is that too much commotion?", "can the cup be green?", "what if I have one toe touching the street while the rest of me is on the sidewalk?", that he finally gets sick of it and tells us we all have stop drinking altogether now. So yea, keep it up and I'll laugh when the rest of the cache scraping programs gets banned too.



:cripes:

Did you just discribe the Dutch Police?


HA ha. Funny, I was just in Amsterdam for the first time last month and had this same conversation with some other tourist I meet on the plane. Even though I tried to explain it to them, for some reason the concept of "just be cool, don't flaunt it, don't act like an ass, respect others and no one will care" was just too difficult of a concept for them to understand.
Needmore Longcat
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#226 - 2013-04-18 17:03:36 UTC
Stop breaking eve.
Elfaen Ethenwe
Effluvium.
#227 - 2013-04-18 17:03:49 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
[quote=Zeph Bowra]
But I also don't want the misconception that has been, admittedly as a result of a mistake on our end, believed to be allowed by the EULA.


So are you saying we were never meant to have a program like evemon/metrics/eve central etc?
Fishsticks Fred
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#228 - 2013-04-18 17:03:55 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:

We're not trying to make people that aren't hurting the game out to be bad people.


But that's exactly what you're doing. As much as I appreciate the sentiment, it means nothing.
John Dowland
Lame Pheasant Gecko Squad
#229 - 2013-04-18 17:04:45 UTC
While I realize all of this has been said before, the awesome idiocy of CCP's stance merits repetition of the following points:

-GMs are in practice totally unaccountable
-CCP has a history of poor communication/decision making
-A significant portion of the player base relies on market data derived from cache scraping
-The in-game market interface is truly awful
-Cache scraping alone cannot be used to "cheat"
-The portions of the EULA under discussion are designed to prevent cheating
-Taking a position against / creating a grey area around cache scraping does not contribute to the "War on Cheaters"
-CCP should either change their position on cache scraping, or IMMEDIATELY release real-time market data via crest
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#230 - 2013-04-18 17:06:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kismeteer
I love the bot banning stuff, I really want Jita local to be readable, a simple request really.

But here's the thing: People develop tools to enjoy their game, mainly because they are not getting cooperation from the developer. (Which is fine if they're working on internet spaceships and not playing doll dress up.) You can't just say 'we will turn a blind eye to this because we're busy' and not give clarification to what 'this' is.

But to come along and say 'You can't use this function that other applications are using, because those are good, and you're bad', that's bullshit. There is either a clearly defined way to use this information safely, or you say nobody can use it. OR you have applications go through a vetting process to say if they are 'clean' or not for using this information in a 'good' way.

If you want to say some programs are fine, like evemon, fine, do that. But do it in an official way, like on that wiki page you posted. Is evemon fine? Can I go to http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/ , he scrapes data from downloadable databases. Can I load custom overviews that look all fancy until I realize how annoying they are?

You can say it's all discretion until some small start up application starts getting used, then you ban everyone who has used it. It's like if someone started making an evemon replacement, and then you stomp it out of existence for also doing the market scraping, only because it wasn't popular enough.

Once again, I appreciate the sentiment of trying to do the 'right thing', CCP, but goddamn do you suck at communicating.
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2013-04-18 17:09:15 UTC
Pardon my tinfoil hattery but I have a prediction:
Stage 1 - CCP send players into a rage.
Stage 2 - Players remember why the CSM is important and vote.
Stage 3 - CSM magically appear and resolve things with CCP.
Stage 4 - CCP praise CSM as a remarkable success.

Its a ploy to get us all to vote... I knew it.

/endtinfoilhattery

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#232 - 2013-04-18 17:10:01 UTC
You should go ahead and just ban all of my characters considering I rampantly use the third-party cache scraping tool EVEMon.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#233 - 2013-04-18 17:11:49 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Can I go to http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/, he scrapes data from downloadable databases.
No, he isn't. He's providing a front-end to reading the DB without the user having to resort to raw SQL queries — which is rather the point of the database to begin with.
Calmoto
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#234 - 2013-04-18 17:12:41 UTC
CCP Stillman

I used mumble overlay to show me the names of the people talking after april 3rd, can you please please add me as an exception because i really didnt know about this

please i dont want to be banned
DamnDirtyCat
Doomheim
#235 - 2013-04-18 17:12:47 UTC
You guys finally recovered from Incarna and now you do this. Shameful.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#236 - 2013-04-18 17:12:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Can I go to http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/, he scrapes data from downloadable databases.
No, he isn't. He's providing a front-end to reading the DB without the user having to resort to raw SQL queries — which is rather the point of the database to begin with.


He's got it offline right now, but he sometimes posts stuff from the test server:
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/sisi_changes.php

This is scraped data.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#237 - 2013-04-18 17:13:44 UTC
Hey CCP, this is dumb as.

To quote Lincoln...

OHHHHHHHH!!! NOW YOU F***ED UP!
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2013-04-18 17:13:56 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:

We're not trying to make people that aren't hurting the game out to be bad people. A lot of cool things come out of third party tools. But I also don't want the misconception that has been, admittedly as a result of a mistake on our end, believed to be allowed by the EULA.


It doesn't matter what you were trying to do. By making the functionality of those third-party tools a bannable offence, that's exactly what you've achieved, and as you might expect people are reacting poorly to the decision.
Calichta Mei
Federal Institute Service
#239 - 2013-04-18 17:14:05 UTC
You know, you guys from CCP are quite like our French government ...

Speaking before, and thinking after ... wich makes 70% of french fed up of their 10 months president ...

You can't say it's written in EULA, and then on forums, says you accept something wich break EULA, as for example the Eve Mentat topic on old forums ...

We even don't understand what is still allowed and forbidden.

We are not all code eater fans, and we even don't know if the third party software is breaking or not EULA, make a list of known Third Party, and just say if it's ok or not, and by the way, give more datas by API ... software will not have to use files on hard disk (cache).
Fishsticks Fred
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#240 - 2013-04-18 17:14:35 UTC
It's funny because I saw something that said just yesterday that we were finally up back to pre-Incarna user levels.