EVE Information Portal

I think most of the players have a pretty solid common sense grasp of what is acceptable and what is crossing the line. CCP however have a long history of making decisions totally absent of common sense(Such as this one) so that relying on it to cover your ass is an impossibility.

Cool.

So you're willing to underwrite that I'll never be banned for something that EveMon does?

As a RL lawyer would you ever advise a client to continue to do something that broke a law? Even is the risk of them getting punished for it was low?

Of course not. And this is the problem - CCP are vaguely stating that the actions of _some_ software eg EveMon is currently OK. Whereas, they should be stating that EveMon *clearly* breaks the EULA.

They don't want to announce that because bad-PR. So they should be giving EveMon an amnesty in some other way (eg a specific 1 month amnesty)

By your own admission, nobody can or should know for sure if something they are doing is a violation of the above conditions. I really wish you'd make up your mind instead of playing two-faced posting games here. Either CCP gives a briteline and states what is and is not against their policies or they don't.

In the condition that they do present this briteline then players are actually capable of knowing what they can and can't do without fear of reprisal. This is an optimal situation as players then know what is and is not a punishable situation. They don't have to guess. They don't have to infer. They don't have to do any legwork at all. If the rules are sufficiently clear then none of that is even an issue. Your statement that players should avoid doing what they "are worried" about just creates pointless paranoia. This is entertainment software not some sort of coercion experiment. Having players walk on eggshells for fear of being banned for whatever CCP whims to ban them for with no previous indications is a bad model and you should feel bad for suggesting that it is a legitimate concept.

Additionally, justifying intentionally vague EULA (a puedo-legal document) on the basis of avoiding people from exploiting the same EULA is logically bankrupt. Dragging the real world into this (gasp, EULAs exist in the real work so here we go), laws that are intentionally vague or do not establish britelines and standards for violation and non-violation are routinely struck down for that exact reason. People cannot be expected to follow a standard that is not properly defined. Stating that you won't give anyone a better chance of following that standard than guessing is just asking for a can of "unintended consequences" that nobody wants to deal with.

So, I used evemon today, after April 15th, along with maybe every other pilot in eve. Which does cache scraping.

So when are you banning all of eve? Your written policies are clear as mud about discretion. Should we be telling our pilots to not use evemon? If you're going to make exceptions, shouldn't you have a published list of exceptions?

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Third_Party_Policies


So, do we get temporary bans and you guys get a mass desubscription, or do you just do permanent bans and all of the eve devs find new jobs? Or is 'discretion' a code word for ' Your program that does cache scraping must be *this* popular to stay in use'?

The reason some of these programs cache scrape is because CCP doesn't have the resources to put into properly fixing and updating their API in a timely manner.

As someone who plays with 3rd party dev (Slowly) and helps to support EMDU for EMDR (Got it working on windows). I'm fairly saddened to see this happening. I use an extensive amount of market data pulled from cache files, dumped into my Spreadsheet of doom(tm), to deal with market orders, buying stuff from my corp membership etc. What I'm seeing here is a change in CCP's tone from "We want you all to play nice" to "We're going to make sure you're all playing nice in a manner that we approve as nice."

As someone who multiboxes 10+ accounts, and pays subs on them, I keep a close eye on the security team posts, as I'm a heavy isboxer user, though I avoid most of the features other than "Ooooh. Easy screen layout! Win!" Simply because I'd prefer not to run afoul of team security. I'm now concerned by the increasing tones of "We don't want possible cheating techniques to be available." Which is fine, but now you're starting to cut off more and more supplies of data, that 3rd party devs use, and are refusing to define what you consider to be cheating. Please keep in mind, that CCP continually pushes to have the player base sign up for more account (Power of two anyone?)

Also, the following wording is highly concerning to me: "2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played." According to this, we can't modify how the Game is played, but how do you want us to play the game? Are we to only play the game with one account at a time? Are we to play the game without any external tools to help us track jobs, manage accounts, track assets? By denying cache scraping officially, and in such a blunt manner, you've pretty much said, "Third party developers that explore out of our very, very limited API, are assisting users to play the game outside of how we want the game to be played" And that tone, is one that I really don't like to see. This game is unplayable for all intents and purposes without 3rd party developers, and I suspect, that's something that everyone here can agree with, on some level, simply because, the first day you join an alliance, and say "I'm new, where do I get started" You get slammed with 3rd party tools to make the game make more sense.

Sometimes CCP does stupid things, this is one of them.

Setting a rule which makes a large part of your userbase in violation of the EULA is clearly stupid, and then to state that they will arbitrarily enforce it is stupid upon stupid.

Why not just make a rule that playing Eve is a violation of the EULA? That would make the everything much simpler.

Nice job CCP ;)

I don't understand why people are whinning here, except if they are not clean, of course...

:cripes:

Did you just discribe the Dutch Police?

Don't whine then when 99% of the game gets banned for using eve-mon and you log in and welp eve is over because no customers no more.

Thats the problem see. If this eula was enforced on everyone to the black letter of the law, space would be emptied.

Eve is a game where people travel right on the inside of the limit of the rules to get that extra competitive edge, and the problem with that, is where the limit of the rules is fuzzy, it becomes impossible to know if your breaking it or not.

It might seem paradoxical, but what makes a sandbox free is clear indications of the rules. Without them, everyones freedom is at risk. You either have a rule or no rule. But maybe-rules don't work.