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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#481 - 2011-11-01 11:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Sizeof Void wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:

How many blaster and rail ship flying in 0.0 fleets. 0.0001 percent ?
Just ask it from yourself why not using them.

Umm... because supercarriers don't fit blasters?



No just because you're dumb and think you made an interesting comment.

Low sec: Gallente ships are close to useless because everything else can do it better, you're dumb if you keep that route. every single frigate/cruiser/BC/BS/recon/logistic/assault/heavy assault and whatever you can fly WILL be better, no doubt

Null sec: Gallente are bad overall, terribly bad, exception made for Lachesis, Arazu, (only for long point, forget dampers) every thing else is completely useless. Even the heavy dictor is unwanted and very often out of the reimbursement programs.

You should move from jita 4-4 undock sometimes

So you comments about diversity and "race" you can keep them for silly cheeps not having brains to think by them selves.

Your such a troll.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#482 - 2011-11-01 11:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
The changes so far doesn't even try to fix the giant mess QR left behind, be it as a blaster ship specific tweak like a web strength bonus or a overall change in the tracking formula or scram/web design. 20% more tracking isn't going to get you anywhere at point blank in situations a blaster ship would be actually useful. You really have to address close range if you want to see blaster ships bigger than frigs in the open again, meaning outside of jump and dock range.

The fitting changes are not very necessary, given that the concept of limited fitting on gallente hulls was and should be a balance aspect as soon close range pvp actually gets addressed and blasters got reasonable damage advantage that you don't need to put neutrons on anything to archive something. The cap use changes on the other hand should be rather fixed on the base capacitor size and recharge, since this also gives them a better chance to operate under neutralizers, what they often have to in her small gang/solo environment.


Overall right now you only give hybrid frigs a buff and don't really address the baseline issues of the larger hulls(close range mechanics) or specific hulls, like the Ferrox, Eagle, Astarte, Diemost that really need a helping hand beyond the basic issues with hybrid turrets.

I also don't think that 10% more damage alone will fix rails, since her niche of sniping isn't this useful and they are still trapped between the higher tracking and dps of beams and the raw alpha of artillery on the battlefield.
Mr J Vudu
Grim Collective
#483 - 2011-11-01 11:55:22 UTC
Quantes IQ wrote:
Captain Africa wrote:
After reading through most posts here and being a cross trained Gallente pilot myself here is my two cents:

Firstly I would hate to see all ships become replicas in terms of their capabilities , God forbid how boring Eve would be, its important to keep the racial differences and FFS stop comparing the Brutix to the Hurricane , every race has there own Rock Stars !

I am double Amarr and I love the look of the ships but I don’t fly them at all because I don’t like their capabilities , so I trained Minmatar and Gallente cause of their niches that appeals to me. I think the same should be said for Gallente pilots ...fly the role of the race, if you don’t like it train for something else.

Gallentes role or niche is short range fights (between 0and 10 km) and then the drones. When you are caught in that 10 km range against a blaster boat the chance of getting away or winning the fight should be 20% or less. The 0-10 km is the Gallente Blaster zone.
I do believe the damage done by blasters should be significantly more to solidify the Gallente Blaster Zone.

The second very obvious issue is how to get your enemy in that zone of 0-10 km. In high sec or gate camping this wouldn’t be that much of a big deal. So in a way Gallente blaster boats already rule High sec and gate camps !
But with conventional null sec fleets and tactics it causes a problem for the Gallente blaster boats.

I love that Eve video “Real spmething ” where the Gallente fleet gets melted into scrap metal by a Amarr fleet and then a Gallente frig pilot breakes away and fly directly towards the Amaarr fleet enabeling the gallente fleet to warp in at 0 and burn the Amarr alive ! That’s what appeals to me ...now whether that is practically possible in 50% of the scenarios , I honestly don’t know. But I think as far as Blaster boats go we need to look more at tactics to get into that Zone than to try and replicate other races roles. I do believe that Gallente is in a disadvantage here when it comes to null sec warfare. (at the same token it should be very difficult for them to be able to get in that zone to balance things out overall).

So here is an idea in its infant stage Big smile

CCP why not create a drone that you as a blaster boat can warp to ? You release the drone or five drones and send them to the enemy ...once in range you warp to the drone and fleet can warp to you. Of course the drone stats need to be balanced out to make the task of the drone to reach its destination hard and relatively easy for enemy ships to shoot it down. The bigger the gallente fleet the more drones to shoot down by the enemy.....think this might be an option to enable blaster boats to get into blaster zone whether you are a fleet or solo pilot ...and its in line with Gallente culture .

Hope my idea can solve some problems for us..or maybe look at a new gallente frig with desent speed and a brutal tank to make that video mentioned above more a reality than anything else.


Has anyone thought about this? A specialized drone that a ship can warp to at any range. I can already see fifty drones from a ten man fleet swarming towards our fleet at medium speed and the anxiety to try and kill them ....before they reach their target.
+ 10 for this idea and tons of other uses for this type of drone....I hope CCP takes note !

This would also take care of the range issues and speed issues .....Make the blaster boats heavy and brutal!!!


Digggg this idea !!!!!
Ash MAXIE
GE Holdings
#484 - 2011-11-01 11:59:13 UTC
Mr J Vudu wrote:
Quantes IQ wrote:
Captain Africa wrote:
After reading through most posts here and being a cross trained Gallente pilot myself here is my two cents:

Firstly I would hate to see all ships become replicas in terms of their capabilities , God forbid how boring Eve would be, its important to keep the racial differences and FFS stop comparing the Brutix to the Hurricane , every race has there own Rock Stars !

I am double Amarr and I love the look of the ships but I don’t fly them at all because I don’t like their capabilities , so I trained Minmatar and Gallente cause of their niches that appeals to me. I think the same should be said for Gallente pilots ...fly the role of the race, if you don’t like it train for something else.

Gallentes role or niche is short range fights (between 0and 10 km) and then the drones. When you are caught in that 10 km range against a blaster boat the chance of getting away or winning the fight should be 20% or less. The 0-10 km is the Gallente Blaster zone.
I do believe the damage done by blasters should be significantly more to solidify the Gallente Blaster Zone.

The second very obvious issue is how to get your enemy in that zone of 0-10 km. In high sec or gate camping this wouldn’t be that much of a big deal. So in a way Gallente blaster boats already rule High sec and gate camps !
But with conventional null sec fleets and tactics it causes a problem for the Gallente blaster boats.

I love that Eve video “Real spmething ” where the Gallente fleet gets melted into scrap metal by a Amarr fleet and then a Gallente frig pilot breakes away and fly directly towards the Amaarr fleet enabeling the gallente fleet to warp in at 0 and burn the Amarr alive ! That’s what appeals to me ...now whether that is practically possible in 50% of the scenarios , I honestly don’t know. But I think as far as Blaster boats go we need to look more at tactics to get into that Zone than to try and replicate other races roles. I do believe that Gallente is in a disadvantage here when it comes to null sec warfare. (at the same token it should be very difficult for them to be able to get in that zone to balance things out overall).

So here is an idea in its infant stage Big smile

CCP why not create a drone that you as a blaster boat can warp to ? You release the drone or five drones and send them to the enemy ...once in range you warp to the drone and fleet can warp to you. Of course the drone stats need to be balanced out to make the task of the drone to reach its destination hard and relatively easy for enemy ships to shoot it down. The bigger the gallente fleet the more drones to shoot down by the enemy.....think this might be an option to enable blaster boats to get into blaster zone whether you are a fleet or solo pilot ...and its in line with Gallente culture .

Hope my idea can solve some problems for us..or maybe look at a new gallente frig with desent speed and a brutal tank to make that video mentioned above more a reality than anything else.



Has anyone thought about this? A specialized drone that a ship can warp to at any range. I can already see fifty drones from a ten man fleet swarming towards our fleet at medium speed and the anxiety to try and kill them ....before they reach their target.
+ 10 for this idea and tons of other uses for this type of drone....I hope CCP takes note !

This would also take care of the range issues and speed issues .....Make the blaster boats heavy and brutal!!!


Digggg this idea !!!!!


Yea very Kewl , but will it work 1vs1 at lets say 20 km range ?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#485 - 2011-11-01 12:01:26 UTC
Not nearly enough.

I'd like to think this change would be looked at very soon after the change and re-adjusted, but with the length of time it's taken to get this far, I don't hold out much hope.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#486 - 2011-11-01 12:02:24 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:

How many blaster and rail ship flying in 0.0 fleets. 0.0001 percent ?
Just ask it from yourself why not using them.

Umm... because supercarriers don't fit blasters?



No just because you're dumb and think you made an interesting comment.

Low sec: Gallente ships are close to useless because everything else can do it better, you're dumb if you keep that route. every single frigate/cruiser/BC/BS/recon/logistic/assault/heavy assault and whatever you can fly WILL be better, no doubt

Null sec: Gallente are bad overall, terribly bad, exception made for Lachesis, Arazu, every thing else is completely useless. Even the heavy dictor is unwanted and very often out of the reimbursement programs.

You should move from jita 4-4 undock sometimes

So you comments about diversity and "race" you can keep them for silly cheeps not having brains to think by them selves.

Your such a troll.

Ouch, you hurt my feelings, you awful, awful person. Not everyone can be so smart. I feel so bad when people make fun of my utter stupidity. Can I file a petition?

Don't be so silly and dramatic, Tanya - or you'll turn out just like me. lol
Arkanon Nerevar
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#487 - 2011-11-01 12:02:35 UTC
personally, while im ecstatic that hybrids are getting thier rebalancing (only 3 years late), i feel these changes are piddling compared to what is really needed to make hybrids across the board viable for PVE/PVP, the CPU reductions still leave you with gimped fitting choices and the damage increase is negligeble at best, lets not forget that amarr lasers have virtually no ammo/reloading requirments and projectials have no cap reduction/fitting issues, abilitys that seem merely ggod on paper but are a incredible advantage in actual application, just my two cents.

also could a dev confirm that there actually reading our comments and willing to make changes to the upcoming stats accordingly, and a heads up on when this is coming out would be great (flying gallente right now and its painful not to mention embaressing).

Trust Not in God, but Have Faith in Antimatter
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#488 - 2011-11-01 12:06:21 UTC
That drone idea is terrible.

First, if it's limited to Gallente ships it's an unfair advantage

when you're in combat you don't have drone models on the overview and you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the 11ty billion other drones out at that time.

It completely makes rails and other ranged attacks useless- you just end up making the pendulum swting in the other direction. Sure you can shoot one or two down, but if everyone has one then likely one is getting through. The ability to probe + warp 150km-250km on grid is already a problem, that idea just makes it worse.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Aloryan Grave
#489 - 2011-11-01 12:11:22 UTC
I think that the increased speed of the ship is too small Sad

Catch up with ships at the optimal distance 7200m.(Neutron Blaster Cannon II) while sitting in Megatron, it is difficult. What?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#490 - 2011-11-01 12:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Sizeof Void wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:

How many blaster and rail ship flying in 0.0 fleets. 0.0001 percent ?
Just ask it from yourself why not using them.

Umm... because supercarriers don't fit blasters?



No just because you're dumb and think you made an interesting comment.

Low sec: Gallente ships are close to useless because everything else can do it better, you're dumb if you keep that route. every single frigate/cruiser/BC/BS/recon/logistic/assault/heavy assault and whatever you can fly WILL be better, no doubt

Null sec: Gallente are bad overall, terribly bad, exception made for Lachesis, Arazu, every thing else is completely useless. Even the heavy dictor is unwanted and very often out of the reimbursement programs.

You should move from jita 4-4 undock sometimes

So you comments about diversity and "race" you can keep them for silly cheeps not having brains to think by them selves.

Your such a troll.

Ouch, you hurt my feelings, you awful, awful person. Not everyone can be so smart. I feel so bad when people make fun of my utter stupidity. Can I file a petition?

Don't be so silly and dramatic, Tanya - or you'll turn out just like me. lol


I'm working on it Lol (glad you understood the sarcasm)

I do admit however, and if those changes come live has it stands:

My Daredevil was awesome, now is getting just like crazy.

My Cynabal was already a FOTOM POWN machine, now it's just "OMG"

My vagabond thx so much if those changes come live, he was clearly underpowered Lol

My Hurricane /bows with his shark teeth all out looking at the gallente hulls

My nano pest turns his back to my Hype for lols, he's having some pity for the poor Hype

My Arty Mael doesn't even waste time on looking at my Mega: "Childs playground is --->there, get out kid!"

And at all corners we will still see those "Diemost" mendicants asking more pg and slots...CCP get rid of those !!

Has it stands, the buff is there for sure, but it isn't enough and profits even more to projectiles than hybrids once again.

I thought it was an hybrid rebalancing.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#491 - 2011-11-01 12:14:26 UTC
Aloryan Grave wrote:


Catch up with ships at the optimal distance 7200m.(Neutron Blaster Cannon II) while sitting in Megatron, it is difficult. What?


Optimus Prime will just kite him at range.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Ash MAXIE
GE Holdings
#492 - 2011-11-01 12:28:11 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
That drone idea is terrible.

First, if it's limited to Gallente ships it's an unfair advantage

when you're in combat you don't have drone models on the overview and you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the 11ty billion other drones out at that time.

It completely makes rails and other ranged attacks useless- you just end up making the pendulum swting in the other direction. Sure you can shoot one or two down, but if everyone has one then likely one is getting through. The ability to probe + warp 150km-250km on grid is already a problem, that idea just makes it worse.


Yea but if you balance the speed and sig of a drone to make it a viable option then it could work well ...and yes make it available for all races but give blaster boats maybe an additional drone speed bonus for this specific drone.

This would eliminate so many problems with blaster boats and increase the probability more to get reds in optimal range without having to compromise other ship stats or change too much base ship attributes , I think it’s worth consideration ...
Tierere
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#493 - 2011-11-01 12:28:33 UTC
These changes are just tinkering around the edges, they will make a difference however there is nothing there that will make hybrids desirable or sexy again.

Blasters should be devastating at close range, not just marginally higher dps, something really scary.

Rails are very sick just now and need a bigger boost that what is proposed, it wold be nice if they were viable for solo pilots.

I'm not sure if the tweeks to powegrid and cpu will be enough. Gallente cruiser class ships are currently no where near being able to fit there full compliment of weapons and defensive modules for there class.

There are some imaginative suggestions thought out this feedback post that could update hybrids for modern warfare, these buffs are not inspiring. It should be a weapons race, some sort of significant advancement that redresses' the balance of power and drive new conflicts, for the good of all evekind!

In the current mmo market CCP you need to capture peoples imagination again.
Dare to be bold!
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#494 - 2011-11-01 12:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Ash MAXIE wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
That drone idea is terrible.

First, if it's limited to Gallente ships it's an unfair advantage

when you're in combat you don't have drone models on the overview and you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the 11ty billion other drones out at that time.

It completely makes rails and other ranged attacks useless- you just end up making the pendulum swting in the other direction. Sure you can shoot one or two down, but if everyone has one then likely one is getting through. The ability to probe + warp 150km-250km on grid is already a problem, that idea just makes it worse.


Yea but if you balance the speed and sig of a drone to make it a viable option then it could work well ...and yes make it available for all races but give blaster boats maybe an additional drone speed bonus for this specific drone.

This would eliminate so many problems with blaster boats and increase the probability more to get reds in optimal range without having to compromise other ship stats or change too much base ship attributes , I think it’s worth consideration ...



Picture this though... I am in a hurricane and say, want to be at 60km. They launch a drone to warp in range to me, I turn around and launch the drone in the other direction to warp back out of range. Or I'll just "send forth thy sabres" and hero bubble them.


It's a good idea, yes, but it would never be used as intended.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#495 - 2011-11-01 12:38:56 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
That drone idea is terrible.

First, if it's limited to Gallente ships it's an unfair advantage

when you're in combat you don't have drone models on the overview and you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the 11ty billion other drones out at that time.

It completely makes rails and other ranged attacks useless- you just end up making the pendulum swting in the other direction. Sure you can shoot one or two down, but if everyone has one then likely one is getting through. The ability to probe + warp 150km-250km on grid is already a problem, that idea just makes it worse.



Same opinion but, the possibility for blaster ships to "warp to" at very small ranges let's say 25km for Med hulls or 35 for BS/BC size would clearly keep the uniqueness of close range combat, uniqueness of very short range weapon and an unique racial trait with this feature.

Would it be overpowered? maybe if it's an instant warp, but delayed and with random chance to land between 0 and 10km with half cap consuming at each use of this feature this could make it really unique and now useful in many scenarios.

Just throwing this stuff out there, since it seems all other choices make blasters look like other weapon systems.

(I know I know this will never happen)
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online
#496 - 2011-11-01 12:39:35 UTC
maybe the taranis can be the replacement for the dramiel, who knows ? Bear


anything to get me closer to DJ LMP's corpse is an improvement, thx CCP

Information is Ammunition,

War does not tolerate Ambiguities.

May you live in an interesting Empyrean age !

http://eve-radio.com/
Ash MAXIE
GE Holdings
#497 - 2011-11-01 12:45:24 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
That drone idea is terrible.

First, if it's limited to Gallente ships it's an unfair advantage

when you're in combat you don't have drone models on the overview and you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the 11ty billion other drones out at that time.

It completely makes rails and other ranged attacks useless- you just end up making the pendulum swting in the other direction. Sure you can shoot one or two down, but if everyone has one then likely one is getting through. The ability to probe + warp 150km-250km on grid is already a problem, that idea just makes it worse.



Same opinion but, the possibility for blaster ships to "warp to" at very small ranges let's say 25km for Med hulls or 35 for BS/BC size would clearly keep the uniqueness of close range combat, uniqueness of very short range weapon and an unique racial trait with this feature.

Would it be overpowered? maybe if it's an instant warp, but delayed and with random chance to land between 0 and 10km with half cap consuming at each use of this feature this could make it really unique and now useful in many scenarios.

Just throwing this stuff out there, since it seems all other choices make blasters look like other weapon systems.

(I know I know this will never happen)


I mean smack a beacon light on each drone so that they become highly visible in space within a 50 km range , so you don’t have to look at your overview to try and figure out where they are ...just target them in space.

The whole idea of this is to address the "getting into the 10 km optimal range "without screwing with uniqueness of races...I don’t see any other way tbh.
bipbip64bipbip
lonelybip
#498 - 2011-11-01 12:51:39 UTC
Hell YEAH !!!
i will be back for this ... thank you.
Ash MAXIE
GE Holdings
#499 - 2011-11-01 12:55:17 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Ash MAXIE wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
That drone idea is terrible.

First, if it's limited to Gallente ships it's an unfair advantage

when you're in combat you don't have drone models on the overview and you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the 11ty billion other drones out at that time.

It completely makes rails and other ranged attacks useless- you just end up making the pendulum swting in the other direction. Sure you can shoot one or two down, but if everyone has one then likely one is getting through. The ability to probe + warp 150km-250km on grid is already a problem, that idea just makes it worse.


Yea but if you balance the speed and sig of a drone to make it a viable option then it could work well ...and yes make it available for all races but give blaster boats maybe an additional drone speed bonus for this specific drone.

This would eliminate so many problems with blaster boats and increase the probability more to get reds in optimal range without having to compromise other ship stats or change too much base ship attributes , I think it’s worth consideration ...



Picture this though... I am in a hurricane and say, want to be at 60km. They launch a drone to warp in range to me, I turn around and launch the drone in the other direction to warp back out of range. Or I'll just "send forth thy sabres" and hero bubble them.


It's a good idea, yes, but it would never be used as intended.


Well then make this a unique Blaster boat feature, I mean GALLENTE IS AFTER ALL KING OF DRONES. Just make the drone fast enough that it would be 50% chance of getting through to the enemy...I mean its a new concept ..Surely you can play around with it till it works well Blink
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#500 - 2011-11-01 13:03:38 UTC
Imawuss wrote:
Lets look at some numbers this rebalance will give us shall we? No skills added or ship bonuses just turret + ammo.

I like that you took the time to work out some numbers. But, I think you really do need to consider skill and ship bonuses, too, since no one uses a gun, without a pilot or ship - at least, not in Eve.

Seriously, though, DPS should be compared on a per ship basis, not on a per gun basis.

When comparing Gallente blaster boats to Minmatar AC boats, you need to factor in the split weapon systems on Minmatar ships (a Gallente gunship usually has more turrets than the equivalent Minmatar gunship), and the signficantly larger drone capacity/bandwidth on most of the Gallente ships.

Drones have a much higher range than autocannons, too, and, in DPS terms, a flight of 5 medium T2 drones is equivalent to 2 to 3 medium T2 neutron blasters. So, to say that a Gallente blaster boat can do no damage outside of blaster range is obviously incorrect.

Skills must also be considered, because a max DPS Minmatar ship requires max projectile, max missile, and max drone skills; whereas, a max DPS Gallente ship requires only max hybrid and max drone skills. A significant difference in SP. So, comparing a max DPS Gallente pilot to a max DPS Minmatar pilot is probably equivalent to comparing a 2 year old toon to a 3 year old toon. If you consider pilots of the same age, then, in most cases, the Minmatar pilot will have fewer level 5 skills trained up, due to the additional missile skill tree, thus gimping relative performance in some other non-missile area - guns, tank, speed, fitting, etc.